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Probably will get downvoted but I don’t think paying taxes leads to more social justice. There are some exceptions where government actions are closer to the pe

by harha 4y ago

Probably will get downvoted but I don’t think paying taxes leads to more social justice. There are some exceptions where government actions are closer to the people they represent, but in general I have the impression that most governments are like an ever growing intransparent entity that serves primarily itself. Edit: typos

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> Probably will get downvoted but I don’t think paying taxes leads to more social justice I completely disagree (many rich people think the same way you do, this is not a novel argument, it is as old as taxes themselves), but the point was not on taxes, but on justice. Meaning that if you pay a tax because - like it or not - you have to pay for it, I should pay it too, if we are in the same situation. That's what I meant for "social justice", the obligation towards the community to fulfill your duties the same way other members of the community do.
- harha 4y ago
  Im afraid I’m not convinced. Taxes are often confusing to a point that you need experts to understand the whole construct and even then there’s disagreement. I don’t think that’s justified. The “community” has very little say in what happens with this money and even if they do, I don’t think it’s always justified because a large group thinks it is. And finally I think that taxes mostly limit social mobility by putting a cap on what you can do with the money you’ve earned (yourself). I don’t think other people are entitled to such a proportion of my income. I moved from Europe to a place with significantly lower taxes, I have a lot more to put on the side every month and can take part of it for retiring and part of it to invest in new ideas. Back home I was covering costs + a little consumption and the rest went to the state which realistically didn’t provide for much (social security only helps once you’ve fully landed on the street, universities were pretty mediocre so I studied in the US partially funded by parents and partially through teaching, need private insurance for health care unless you want to wait for ages to get treatment, etc. - so I paid for a lot of things that I couldn’t benefit from). Government functions much better too and filing my taxes took minutes without any external help, so I’m less distracted. And overall I have a way better quality of life and I’m much happier.
  - threatofrain 4y ago
    The question of justice hinges not on whether the state spends wisely, whether we should have lower taxes, or whether we should have alternative systems of deliberation to better gather citizen feedback. The question is whether it's just to have some people evade taxes. I'm on the side of more tax enforcement (that does not mean I support higher or lower taxes) because I believe it is the rich and powerful who are most adept at evading taxes. The more those who are good at evading taxes get away with it, the more burden the poor and middle class must shoulder.
    - harha 4y ago
      I think it’s mostly the middle class suffering. Would a billionaire save 300€ a year for a pool? And does the IRS need so many more agents to chase rich people? Also without an army of tax consultants and lawyers it’s easy to not be aware of everything you need or don’t need to pay, and most likely you’ll end up overpaying. At the same time richer people will have opportunities to legally reduce their tax bill that ordinary people don’t have. Unlike for instance in Germany, I’m not paying for my boss to have a lower tax rate than I do.
      - orwin 4y ago
        If you own a pool big enough to be taxed in France, you aren't working or middle class. You are at least upper middle class.
        harha 4y ago
        First result on DDG [0]: “The French Newspaper Le Parisien calculated that an average pool measured at 322 square feet is taxed 200 Euros per year.” I think the middle class should be able to afford a 8x4m pool outside of big cities. Especially since other large expenditures like overpriced cars aren’t that big of a deal in France. https://nypost.com/2022/08/31/google-ai-helps-france-tax-over-20000-undeclared-pools/ https://nypost.com/2022/08/31/google-ai-helps-france-tax-ove...

by harha 4y ago

peoplefromibiza 4y ago

> Probably will get downvoted but I don’t think paying taxes leads to more social justice I completely disagree (many rich people think the same way you do, this is not a novel argument, it is as old as taxes themselves), but the point was not on taxes, but on justice. Meaning that if you pay a tax because - like it or not - you have to pay for it, I should pay it too, if we are in the same situation. That's what I meant for "social justice", the obligation towards the community to fulfill your duties the same way other members of the community do.

harha 4y ago
Im afraid I’m not convinced. Taxes are often confusing to a point that you need experts to understand the whole construct and even then there’s disagreement. I don’t think that’s justified. The “community” has very little say in what happens with this money and even if they do, I don’t think it’s always justified because a large group thinks it is. And finally I think that taxes mostly limit social mobility by putting a cap on what you can do with the money you’ve earned (yourself). I don’t think other people are entitled to such a proportion of my income. I moved from Europe to a place with significantly lower taxes, I have a lot more to put on the side every month and can take part of it for retiring and part of it to invest in new ideas. Back home I was covering costs + a little consumption and the rest went to the state which realistically didn’t provide for much (social security only helps once you’ve fully landed on the street, universities were pretty mediocre so I studied in the US partially funded by parents and partially through teaching, need private insurance for health care unless you want to wait for ages to get treatment, etc. - so I paid for a lot of things that I couldn’t benefit from). Government functions much better too and filing my taxes took minutes without any external help, so I’m less distracted. And overall I have a way better quality of life and I’m much happier.
- threatofrain 4y ago
  The question of justice hinges not on whether the state spends wisely, whether we should have lower taxes, or whether we should have alternative systems of deliberation to better gather citizen feedback. The question is whether it's just to have some people evade taxes. I'm on the side of more tax enforcement (that does not mean I support higher or lower taxes) because I believe it is the rich and powerful who are most adept at evading taxes. The more those who are good at evading taxes get away with it, the more burden the poor and middle class must shoulder.
  - harha 4y ago
    I think it’s mostly the middle class suffering. Would a billionaire save 300€ a year for a pool? And does the IRS need so many more agents to chase rich people? Also without an army of tax consultants and lawyers it’s easy to not be aware of everything you need or don’t need to pay, and most likely you’ll end up overpaying. At the same time richer people will have opportunities to legally reduce their tax bill that ordinary people don’t have. Unlike for instance in Germany, I’m not paying for my boss to have a lower tax rate than I do.
    - orwin 4y ago
      If you own a pool big enough to be taxed in France, you aren't working or middle class. You are at least upper middle class.
      - harha 4y ago
        First result on DDG [0]: “The French Newspaper Le Parisien calculated that an average pool measured at 322 square feet is taxed 200 Euros per year.” I think the middle class should be able to afford a 8x4m pool outside of big cities. Especially since other large expenditures like overpriced cars aren’t that big of a deal in France. https://nypost.com/2022/08/31/google-ai-helps-france-tax-over-20000-undeclared-pools/ https://nypost.com/2022/08/31/google-ai-helps-france-tax-ove...