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This is redicolous. At some point we have admit as a civilisation we have failed, when there are drones or sattelites taking fotos of our back yards -all the ti

This is redicolous. At some point we have admit as a civilisation we have failed, when there are drones or sattelites taking fotos of our back yards -all the time- just do idenfiy those 10 people in a neigbourhood that have "saved" 300 bucks a year. I mean sure its France where they think a little different about privacy, but you can make sure that once the quality is good enough, someone will put your naked butt on the internet, because they found them while doing "routine work"- And no, neither google earth or bing or apple have detailed enough picture quality to identify anything. on purpose. That will not however be true for the drone your local gov uses. Im not trying to create a state of naked people either, but the point still stand that if you need this tech to find a couple of pools, you might as well put cameras everywhere.

melkael 4y ago
> And no, neither google earth or bing or apple have detailed enough picture quality to identify anything. Google is involved in the project. This almost certainly uses google earth’s data
consp 4y ago
In most countries dodging taxes is a crime, not a civil fine, which shifts the privacy aspect a bit, though I agree it's a bit over the top.
- jhoelzel 4y ago
  Its not about them identifying potential sources of income, its how they do it. I have absolutely no problem with a guy in a plane pointing at pools and taking notes and knocking on peoples doors. What I do have a problem with is unnecessary surveillance of the innocent.
  - Mordisquitos 4y ago
    What if the image processing is only allowing them to detect potential undeclared pools, and they only issue the corresponding fine once it has been confirmed by a guy in a plane (or at ground level) who has been sent to double-check?
  - dna_polymerase 4y ago
    Oh please. If they have to do it they should go the satellite image way, way less pollution, less noise and at least a chance to get everyone not just a bunch of random unlucky people.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    > What I do have a problem with is unnecessary surveillance of the innocent. so in your opinion police patrolling the streets are an "unnecessary surveillance of the innocent"? because disclosed pools are already known to the State. Technically is not surveillance if they already know that you have a pool and they actually find a pool there (what a surprise!)
    - jhoelzel 4y ago
      > so in your opinion police patrolling the streets are an "unnecessary surveillance of the innocent"? The street is a public place, but my yard is not. Furthermore the police does not check in once every X hours with me personally, but yes if they would, i would consider that an annoiance =)
      - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
        > The street is a public place, but my yard is not. your yard is not yours. it's at your disposal. the soil your yard is built on is a State property. If they have probable cause, they can enter and check whatever they want to. They can also look at it from outside, without your permission. > Furthermore the police does not check in once every X hours with me personally this is a once in a lifetime check
  - InCityDreams 4y ago
    You must hate going outside.
jimjambw 4y ago
The real worry is those that operate it will think that France is in England.
- jhoelzel 4y ago
  thanks for pointing it out, I corrected it =) As a german when I hear about bad privacy my first thought is always of the UK ;)
  - tokai 4y ago
    That's rich taking into consideration how involved Germany is in internet surveillance.
    - jhoelzel 4y ago
      internet surveillance is one thing and yes we are involved but still less than the united states or other actors. However there still is a reasonable expectency of privacy in the real world here.
  - nicbou 4y ago
    Ah then the perspective makes more sense. German privacy is something different. However it tends to be individual privacy. A grainy picture of a pool processed without judgement by an algorithm feels a lot like panorama rights to me. The software sees the same thing I can see on Google Maps.
overtonwhy 4y ago
In Greece it was nearly 17,000 pools undeclared https://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html https://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.ht...
- jhoelzel 4y ago
  Which still could have been easily identified by a plane ride too
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    > Which still could have been easily I believe your definition of easy is a bit faulty.
peoplefromibiza 4y ago
They're doing the same thing in Italy. Yes, there are aerial photos since the 50s, no, it's not possible for humans to scan all of them, not in a life time. > 10 people in a neigbourhood that have "saved" 300 bucks a year. That's not the point. The points are: - social justice, if I pay you have to pay. If you don't pay taxes to IRS what happens? I bet they use a lot more than AI to find people who eludes them... - undisclosed pools (and other undisclosed properties) are a proxy for other illegal activities. For example in Italy villas of sentenced criminals are usually hidden. This way the State could find them and confiscate them. Anyway in Italy they have already discovered more than 20 thousand undisclosed pools. And the job is not done yet. EDIT: I work in an insurance company, we use similar techniques to identify buildings in satellite images and compare them to same pictures after a flood or a fire, to estimate damages. It could be done by human eyes, It would take years. This way clients are reimbursed swiftly and can start rebuilding what has been damaged.
- harha 4y ago
  Probably will get downvoted but I don’t think paying taxes leads to more social justice. There are some exceptions where government actions are closer to the people they represent, but in general I have the impression that most governments are like an ever growing intransparent entity that serves primarily itself. Edit: typos
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    > Probably will get downvoted but I don’t think paying taxes leads to more social justice I completely disagree (many rich people think the same way you do, this is not a novel argument, it is as old as taxes themselves), but the point was not on taxes, but on justice. Meaning that if you pay a tax because - like it or not - you have to pay for it, I should pay it too, if we are in the same situation. That's what I meant for "social justice", the obligation towards the community to fulfill your duties the same way other members of the community do.
    - harha 4y ago
relix 4y ago
That's a ridiculous argumentation. This infrastructure was not built or maintained "just do idenfiy those 10 people in a neigbourhood that have "saved" 300 bucks a year". It exists for lots of different, likely more useful use cases, and this is just another added usecase that can utilise already existing infrastructure for no added cost. Your statement is comparable to calling it ridiculous that we have roads "just so an ice cream truck can sell ice cones to neighbourhood kids during the summer". That's obviously not the main use case for roads.
- jhoelzel 4y ago
  - relix 4y ago
    That's a completely different concern.
    - jhoelzel 4y ago
      Nope. The concern is exactly the same in both examples: broad spectrum surveillance on the many to catch the few.
mellavora 4y ago
> And no, neither google earth or bing or apple have detailed enough picture quality to identify anything. We have a (small, legal) pool. One year we bought that inflatable green alligator pool toy which was so popular -- one of these https://the-hollywood-gossip-res.cloudinary.com/iu/s--WNibF2m_--/t_xlarge_l/cs_srgb,f_auto,fl_strip_profile.lossy,q_auto:420/v1560809963/attachment/gator-pool-float.jpg https://the-hollywood-gossip-res.cloudinary.com/iu/s--WNibF2... There was a time you could see our pool alligator on google earth.
- jhoelzel 4y ago
  I agree and even google noticed it has become a problem and thus reduced the quality for public facing images. Here in germany you can even have your house blurred out on google maps if you submit a request.
flakeoil 4y ago
You don't need very detailed imagery to spot a swimming pool. The Google earth type images are enough. It can also be used to spot building extensions etc. And it also gives a hint on other cheating and crime, for example if the household is on benefits, pays no tax and all of a sudden a pool pops up in the garden. It might still be legit, but at least an investigation can be done. Sure it might be seen a bit over the top, but what are the alternatives? If people do not declare when it is taxable, then things might need to be enforced. Sure these taxes could be removed, but at the same time it might be fair to tax people who can afford building a pool. Probably better than increasing tax on work.
vegardx 4y ago
You can easily see pools on Google Earth. This is the sort of claim that literally takes seconds to refute in any city.

melkael 4y ago

> And no, neither google earth or bing or apple have detailed enough picture quality to identify anything. Google is involved in the project. This almost certainly uses google earth’s data

consp 4y ago

In most countries dodging taxes is a crime, not a civil fine, which shifts the privacy aspect a bit, though I agree it's a bit over the top.

jhoelzel 4y ago
Its not about them identifying potential sources of income, its how they do it. I have absolutely no problem with a guy in a plane pointing at pools and taking notes and knocking on peoples doors. What I do have a problem with is unnecessary surveillance of the innocent.
- Mordisquitos 4y ago
  What if the image processing is only allowing them to detect potential undeclared pools, and they only issue the corresponding fine once it has been confirmed by a guy in a plane (or at ground level) who has been sent to double-check?
- dna_polymerase 4y ago
  Oh please. If they have to do it they should go the satellite image way, way less pollution, less noise and at least a chance to get everyone not just a bunch of random unlucky people.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > What I do have a problem with is unnecessary surveillance of the innocent. so in your opinion police patrolling the streets are an "unnecessary surveillance of the innocent"? because disclosed pools are already known to the State. Technically is not surveillance if they already know that you have a pool and they actually find a pool there (what a surprise!)
  - jhoelzel 4y ago
    > so in your opinion police patrolling the streets are an "unnecessary surveillance of the innocent"? The street is a public place, but my yard is not. Furthermore the police does not check in once every X hours with me personally, but yes if they would, i would consider that an annoiance =)
    - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
      > The street is a public place, but my yard is not. your yard is not yours. it's at your disposal. the soil your yard is built on is a State property. If they have probable cause, they can enter and check whatever they want to. They can also look at it from outside, without your permission. > Furthermore the police does not check in once every X hours with me personally this is a once in a lifetime check
- InCityDreams 4y ago
  You must hate going outside.

jimjambw 4y ago

The real worry is those that operate it will think that France is in England.

jhoelzel 4y ago
thanks for pointing it out, I corrected it =) As a german when I hear about bad privacy my first thought is always of the UK ;)
- tokai 4y ago
  That's rich taking into consideration how involved Germany is in internet surveillance.
  - jhoelzel 4y ago
    internet surveillance is one thing and yes we are involved but still less than the united states or other actors. However there still is a reasonable expectency of privacy in the real world here.
- nicbou 4y ago
  Ah then the perspective makes more sense. German privacy is something different. However it tends to be individual privacy. A grainy picture of a pool processed without judgement by an algorithm feels a lot like panorama rights to me. The software sees the same thing I can see on Google Maps.

overtonwhy 4y ago

In Greece it was nearly 17,000 pools undeclared https://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html https://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.ht...

jhoelzel 4y ago
Which still could have been easily identified by a plane ride too
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > Which still could have been easily I believe your definition of easy is a bit faulty.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago

They're doing the same thing in Italy. Yes, there are aerial photos since the 50s, no, it's not possible for humans to scan all of them, not in a life time. > 10 people in a neigbourhood that have "saved" 300 bucks a year. That's not the point. The points are: - social justice, if I pay you have to pay. If you don't pay taxes to IRS what happens? I bet they use a lot more than AI to find people who eludes them... - undisclosed pools (and other undisclosed properties) are a proxy for other illegal activities. For example in Italy villas of sentenced criminals are usually hidden. This way the State could find them and confiscate them. Anyway in Italy they have already discovered more than 20 thousand undisclosed pools. And the job is not done yet. EDIT: I work in an insurance company, we use similar techniques to identify buildings in satellite images and compare them to same pictures after a flood or a fire, to estimate damages. It could be done by human eyes, It would take years. This way clients are reimbursed swiftly and can start rebuilding what has been damaged.

harha 4y ago
Probably will get downvoted but I don’t think paying taxes leads to more social justice. There are some exceptions where government actions are closer to the people they represent, but in general I have the impression that most governments are like an ever growing intransparent entity that serves primarily itself. Edit: typos
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > Probably will get downvoted but I don’t think paying taxes leads to more social justice I completely disagree (many rich people think the same way you do, this is not a novel argument, it is as old as taxes themselves), but the point was not on taxes, but on justice. Meaning that if you pay a tax because - like it or not - you have to pay for it, I should pay it too, if we are in the same situation. That's what I meant for "social justice", the obligation towards the community to fulfill your duties the same way other members of the community do.
  - harha 4y ago

relix 4y ago

That's a ridiculous argumentation. This infrastructure was not built or maintained "just do idenfiy those 10 people in a neigbourhood that have "saved" 300 bucks a year". It exists for lots of different, likely more useful use cases, and this is just another added usecase that can utilise already existing infrastructure for no added cost. Your statement is comparable to calling it ridiculous that we have roads "just so an ice cream truck can sell ice cones to neighbourhood kids during the summer". That's obviously not the main use case for roads.

jhoelzel 4y ago
- relix 4y ago
  That's a completely different concern.
  - jhoelzel 4y ago
    Nope. The concern is exactly the same in both examples: broad spectrum surveillance on the many to catch the few.

mellavora 4y ago

> And no, neither google earth or bing or apple have detailed enough picture quality to identify anything. We have a (small, legal) pool. One year we bought that inflatable green alligator pool toy which was so popular -- one of these https://the-hollywood-gossip-res.cloudinary.com/iu/s--WNibF2m_--/t_xlarge_l/cs_srgb,f_auto,fl_strip_profile.lossy,q_auto:420/v1560809963/attachment/gator-pool-float.jpg https://the-hollywood-gossip-res.cloudinary.com/iu/s--WNibF2... There was a time you could see our pool alligator on google earth.

jhoelzel 4y ago
I agree and even google noticed it has become a problem and thus reduced the quality for public facing images. Here in germany you can even have your house blurred out on google maps if you submit a request.

flakeoil 4y ago

You don't need very detailed imagery to spot a swimming pool. The Google earth type images are enough. It can also be used to spot building extensions etc. And it also gives a hint on other cheating and crime, for example if the household is on benefits, pays no tax and all of a sudden a pool pops up in the garden. It might still be legit, but at least an investigation can be done. Sure it might be seen a bit over the top, but what are the alternatives? If people do not declare when it is taxable, then things might need to be enforced. Sure these taxes could be removed, but at the same time it might be fair to tax people who can afford building a pool. Probably better than increasing tax on work.

vegardx 4y ago

You can easily see pools on Google Earth. This is the sort of claim that literally takes seconds to refute in any city.