8 ms·

Extroverts destroy the world (2012)

121 points by revskill 4y ago

pelasaco 4y ago
> A student reveals how, at one team-building exercise that involved working on a plan to survive subarctic temperatures, “Our action plan hinged on what the most vocal people suggested. > When the less vocal people put out ideas, those ideas were discarded. The ideas that were rejected would have kept us alive and out of trouble, but they were dismissed because of the conviction with which the more vocal people suggested their ideas.” That's like our society discuss "the most important topics" today. There are some groups screaming some agenda, which 99% doesn't care, but because they are loud and everywhere, they are able to enforce some crazy ideas
- LewisVerstappen 4y ago
  Yeah agreed, super important thing that most people don’t realize It was well covered in Taleb - https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
- francisofascii 4y ago
  Yeah, it sounds a little like herd mentality, where people make emotional rather than rational decisions. If a few people are loud and screaming for us to do X, people are influenced to do X. It could be part of our survival mechanism.
sophrocyne 4y ago
If you find yourself to be a vocal person, use your voice to make sure that even the quietest ideas are heard and considered.
- DawsonBruce 4y ago
  I did this at my previous employer for seven years. My peers loved me, but I could tell the executives weren’t a fan of the outspokenness. Last week I was laid off, and while the company will never admit to it, I have a feeling that my willingness to use my voice over the years attributed in part to their decision.
Tade0 4y ago
> Maybe we should stop thinking of extroverts as fun, lively enchanters and more as hollow, greasy pickpockets. I have an alternative suggestion: don't try to put people in just two, distinct categories. We're not red/blue, (pardon the racist terminology)"of color"/white, left/right. We're at least fifty shades of everything in between. This whole introvert/extrovert debate to me seems like a yet another attempt at "us vs them".
- revskill 4y ago
  The reality is different. In this aspect, it's real. There're only 2 types. Those who're used to be vocal or were born vocal, they couldn't stop being vocal.
  - sharkbird2 4y ago
    There are degrees of introversion/extroversion as well.
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    Many of them could, in fact, stop being vocal. They did not have an incentive to. They had an incentive to be/become vocal. That's the fundamental issue which has very little to do with extraversion. The world rewards loudness, and most attempts at making the world slower and more silent are actively thwarted.
    - RunSet 4y ago
      Too much "squeaky wheel gets the grease"; not enough "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down".
  - xorcist 4y ago
    Of course there is no us and them But them they do not think the same
- Bakary 4y ago
  The discursive style of the article isn't meant to be taken so literally.
BlargMcLarg 4y ago
To the defense of extroverts, most examples in the article are about hyperactive salesmen in some form selling bad ideas to people who don't know better, for a short term gain. Heck, many of these people are social chameleons pretending to be extroverts (some continuing to, some breaking down eventually, some becoming extroverts). Fundamental issue, people are 'stupid' (not always actually stupid, just exhausted, tired, unwilling to care, don't know enough, misunderstand), and society rewards individuals for taking advantage of others as long as it doesn't break the law. And even breaking the law can be profitable.
- bionsystem 4y ago
  Breaking the law can be massively profitable. Here we have government authorities permanently screening/scanning potential scams and frauds. I've got one of my best friends working there. It's massively underfounded and the bureaucracy is huge, meaning that even when they know someone is doing something wrong, it takes them 1-3 years to even start legal procedures. And it's getting worse with time, it's as if there is some incentives to keep things going. For example closing a restaurant because they have hygiene issues is only going to be temporary unless the issue is massive. They will have 2 or 3 shots to get it right. Calling out on somebody doing scam calls (typically to the elderly or to vulnerable people) to sell them massively overpriced services (for example 50k€ for a window replacement in their home) is virtually impossible. He told me he investigated a guy who managed to change his identity every year for 10 years, was able to travel internationally, made millions from various scams and frauds, and is nowhere near to get caught ; and they know his identity, his various scam sites and call centers, and so forth. But to enforce anything is just too complicated.
  - t-3 4y ago
    It's also a lot of fun/a huge adrenaline rush. The people I've met who do nothing but scam and con love "getting over" on others. (other crime is the same I guess - drug dealers are notorious for being addicted to "the life", and I've never met a thief who wouldn't steal for fun)
bregma 4y ago
Here's the argument presented in the article. premise 1: all manipulative people are bad premise 2: some manipulative people are extroverts conclusion: all extroverts are bad I'm not sure I agree with the argument. It seems to be loudly and publicly proclaiming something as a fact when it's a logical fallacy. Not unusual these days.
- wwilim 4y ago
  Ironically, this is typical "strawman extrovert" behavior
- tunap 4y ago
  Agreed. Not all extroverts are narcissistic, sociopaths.
- blantonl 4y ago
  I think this article is more of a tongue in cheek rant against the culture of BS artists vs measured takedown against extroverts.
- lo_zamoyski 4y ago
  And don't forget fallacious conclusion #2: all introverts are good. The author does strike me as the caricaturish Hollywood movie nerd, whiny, full of self-pity, bad faith, envy, and repressed narcissism, putting down everything to do with the "popular kids" or jocks while craving all the same things. Either own up to it and saddle up, or take a good hard look at your contradictions, disingenuousness, and self-deception. Pick up Nietzsche and Scheler and learn about ressentiment because this is a textbook example. Take this revealing quote: > The school’s emphasis on networking above studious reflection makes outcasts of, for instance, many brilliant but introverted Asian students who feel out of place in this cheerleader hell. Why would this be a cheerleader hell? If the networking milieu is superficial, thoughtless, and crass, why the desperate desire to fit in with them? To be accepted by them? (Or, later on, play the game of sour grapes?) After all, aren't they worse off? Aren't they less desirable? This is incoherent. You say these introverted students are "outcasts" who feel out of place with these glad-handing extroverts. But if that is the case, then why would it ever be their goal to fit in with people you believe are so deserving of scorn and contempt? Why do you put them up on a pedestal and pout about not being accepted or even adored by them? If you were being honest, then they would never feel the need or desire to join their ranks, to receive their affection and approval. Fortune favors the bold. Hiding in your basement and expecting the world to come to you, to appreciate your ostensible greatness, while denying that of others, is perhaps the height of arrogance and egocentrism. Everyone is busy living their own lives, dealing with their own problems, just like the introvert, yet the latter expects special treatment. One of the greatest lessons I've learned in life is that it is a waste of time complaining about the state of the world. It is a waste of time blaming the world for your dissatisfactions, thinking all the while that if only the world would be a certain way, THEN I could finally flourish. This is the creed of the effeminate procrastinator. But life is a meat grinder. Waiting for it to be easy, for it to be comfortable, for the stars to align before you make a move is to waste precious time and to wait for one's death. Life is struggle. Do not pity those poor, immigrant students, dear author, because they are still better at bearing the pains and discomforts of life than the brats of the first world who can only survive in the rarefied confines of their warm, padded cells. Their children, however...
CPLX 4y ago
There’s really just nothing wrong with being charming, and no moral authority that derives from not being so. Being personally ingratiating is simply an ability, like the ability to lift heavier objects or mentally rotate shapes. It has utility, but is not a moral force.
im3w1l 4y ago
> When the less vocal people put out ideas, those ideas were discarded. The ideas that were rejected would have kept us alive and out of trouble, but they were dismissed because of the conviction with which the more vocal people suggested their ideas. I do think there are technological and social ways of at least lessening this issue. For instance the secret ballot might qualify. Planning poker is somehow similar, everyone commits to a secret opinion, but in this case they are then later revealed and used as a starting point for a discussion. Maybe Roberts Rules of Order. And for a big curveball, I think capitalism is actually also a countermeasure. By having parallel competing organizations, it means that if group-think hold takes hold in one of them, other organizations with different ideas can overtake it.
- danaris 4y ago
  Secret ballots are only helpful once everyone's already made a decision internally about what to do. In the scenario described, the problem wasn't people not choosing the better ideas because they were afraid of retaliation. It was them thinking the louder ideas were better because they were louder. It's very hard to solve problems like this with fancy procedures. IMO what's needed is a cultural shift to respect people's opinions and not lionize the loud and flashy.
  - t-3 4y ago
    Secret ballots in a representative democracy actually demonstrate the problem very well. Often the choice ends up between the two loudest candidates. The tendencies towards binary "us vs them" thinking and using magnitude as an estimate of correctness seem to me to be instinctual social reactions, the type of thing that needs training and constant self-reflection to recognize and consciously avoid succumbing to or exploiting. It's unreasonable to expect anyone to constantly be on guard against themselves or to avoid using every available tool to achieve success, especially when we are so good at rationalizing our positions on anything. What's required might be a technical solution (not necessarily technological) - arranging meetings and discussions so that everyone can be seen and heard, using formats that promote reasoned discussion, greater expectations of formality and politeness, etc. A change of rules could kickstart a cultural change, but would certainly change how people behave in the fora where they were implemented.
GoToRO 4y ago
are almost all these HN comments from extroverts? :))
- revskill 4y ago
  Writing is not vocal.
  - throw-ru-938 4y ago
    Yet many of us here are lurkers and don't bother to write.
brianmcc 4y ago
I really enjoyed this rant/vent, and IMO occasionally just a gush of frustration about A Thing is entirely healthy :-) I think we do value surface traits too highly - "magnetic, fascinating, stunning, attractive, glowing, dominant, forceful and energetic" - as the article illustrates. Why not, I mean they are positive and nice and not to be condemned in any way, but they are just a bit too valued over other better traits - the downgraded "citizenship, duty, work, golden deeds, honor, reputation, morals, manners and integrity". A society which lauded the quiet achievers, or simply the concept of diligent accomplishment, would be nice I think.
- blantonl 4y ago
  How about these surface traits: "Biggest, Greatest, Best, Smartest, Bigly" Sound familiar? :)
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- dtjohnnyb 4y ago
  "The Captain Class" is a great book that glorifies the "water carriers" of a bunch of successful sporting dynasties. It certainly gave me a lot of encouragement to try to develop more of the traits shown by those great captains.
- saiya-jin 4y ago
  I'd say Swiss society is pretty close to what you wish for. Also northern Europe ones. I don't think its a coincidence that all rank among happiest countries in whole world. There is just something good that gets delivered sustainably into society with this approach, and over time it shows. Self-feeding circle. I sure hope future decades don't destroy it too much with immigration, I think Swiss have the best approach for this, staying away from EU certainly benefited them for independent decisions (come here if our society needs you, stay if you respect rules, learn language and don't break law seriously... a lot of far right movements in the world would be marginal if this was followed by politicians diligently). And yet they have by far the highest immigration in whole Europe.
gherkinnn 4y ago
What a terrible post. I can't think of a time in which charismatic and outgoing people didn't have an advantage. We're highly social animals. Of course it is beneficial to navigate and engage with a social environment. The author paints a tired straw man and puts himself and all other introverts in the role of a victim. The former is unhelpful and the latter downright harmful. Sincerely, a so-called introvert.
- thejackgoode 4y ago
  Hmm, times in which you could've get mugged by grim and not really that talkative people for making too much noise at some tavern, perhaps?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  The article, despite it's poor quality, goes a little deeper than just 'charisma'. Gentlemen and cowboys are two archetypes of stoic, charismatic men which valued calmth over being active and vocal. There were plenty of times being as vocal as people are today would be incredibly stupid at best, and paint a target at worst. Being outgoing has little to do with sheer volume or pushing others out of the picture. Also, amount and frequency of contact is far higher than before. I find it more plausible loudness is a bandaid among a society trying to continue at breakneck speed, than being inherently more charismatic.
shipman05 4y ago
"I remember feeling derisive about marketing as a young techie — it wasn’t creating the value. Nowadays, I often marvel at how much amazing value is present that people just don’t know about. If only there was a way to bring it to their attention…" - John Carmack https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1551587190395789312 https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1551587190395789312
- balsam 4y ago
  “A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes” — Mark Twain, apocryphally. If only there were a way to encourage these extraverts to focus only on the value..
- pwdisswordfish9 4y ago
  All the more reason to be derisive about marketing then.
- As_You_Wish 4y ago
  Yes, I invented a cure for all forms of cancer in my basement. I've told nobody at all about it. For some reason, nobody is coming into my basement wanting to be cured of cancer. It's almost like nobody knows that I cured cancer, even though I haven't told a soul about it. Why don't people just know? Why do I have to talk to people or let others know? Don't they just know through ESP or something???
  - Doxin 4y ago
    Of course in reality if you e.g. invent a new vacuum cleaner you hardly need to market it. People interested in buying a vacuum cleaner will show up at shops selling vacuum cleaners.
    - As_You_Wish 4y ago
      Yes, but how are you going to let people who have shops know that you have a new vacuum cleaner? If you invent a new vacuum cleaner in your basement, and don't tell a soul about it, how are vacuum cleaner shops even going to know that you have a new vacuum cleaner to begin with? If you do anything, anything to let people know that you have a vacuum cleaner - whether website, cold call, flyers, newspaper ads, get a store with signage, direct mail, going to trade shows - every single thing to get the word out is marketing. Ever single thing. If you even talk to someone that you pass by on the streets, and tell them you have a great vacuum cleaner, that's marketing. There's nothing anyone can do to sell anything without marketing. Because marketing definitionally means anything done to sell something. Nothing sells without marketing. Post it here on this very website we are now in and let people know...that's still marketing. Everything is marketing. Also, as I am one who has tried to sell stuff to stores that sell stuff, it is not easy. There are multitudes of scenarios in cold calling, for example: Me: Hi, my name is Joe Smith. I have this new vacuum cleaner that I invented, do you want to sell it? Vacuum shop: Yeah, my boss does all the purchasing, but she's out of the country for 3 months so you'll have to call back then. . Me: Hi, my name is Joe Smith. I have this new vacuum cleaner that I invented, do you want to sell it? Vacuum shop: No, we have an overstock of vacuum cleaners right now, call me back next year. . Me: Hi, my name is Joe Smith. I have this new vacuum cleaner that I invented, do you want to sell it? Vacuum shop: What is the list price? Me: $1500 Vacuum shop: No, we only sell vacuum cleaners that go up to $200 because we are in a low-income area. . This goes on and on with a million permutations.
vblplan 4y ago
I have a hard time understanding the negativity about this article. When a mainstream publication says "extroverts do X", the general public understands that it does not mean "all extroverts do X". We have all seen the damage that some extroverts can do to meetings, where they shamelessly namedrop half understood concepts that need to be refuted one by one. We have all seen open source projects being taken over by a mediocre, loud-mouthed politician cabal, who slowly become the project's public face on Twitter and quash dissent with lies and persistence. Of course extroverts are needed in diplomacy, etc. But how to keep them honest is an unsolved problem.
- park777 4y ago
  I would say that being an extrovert isn’t really what defines those people you mention. In fact, I bet many introverts are capable of doing the same things. But oh well, you can never stop humans from putting other humans in boxes.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  >the general public understands that it does not mean "all extroverts do X" General public very noticeable does not. The myriad of stereotypes still existing today despite empirical evidence of the opposite couldn't speak louder. If not 'all', certainly 'most'. Surely someone on HN would know a thing or two about generalizations and their adoption as stereotypes when repeated often enough.
  - mistermann 4y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-dependent_memory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-dependent_memory
mihaaly 4y ago
I agree.
ianai 4y ago
Humans. Humans destroy everything. Edit-if you want to say I’m wrong. Don’t say it. Live it. Show with your actions that humans don’t destroy but instead create. Create, cultivate, and generally reinforce life and diversity. Otherwise the sentence stands.
- jason-phillips 4y ago
  I happen to agree with you. It's not really an extrovert thing, it's a lack-of-intelligence-combined-with-bad-decisions thing, which humanity possesses in more than ample quantities.
- Bakary 4y ago
  These positive traits you cite are defined by human minds and have no meaning outside of them. Their value is determined by humans. The mere fact that these are seen as valuable by humans is already a good indication that humans do these things or help them along.
  - mistermann 4y ago
    > These positive traits you cite are defined by human minds and have no meaning outside of them. They can certainly have consequences though, and consequences can lead to meaning. > Their value is determined by humans. On one level of reality, but there are many different layers happening at the same time.
    - ianai 4y ago
      I like it. Valuation through consequence.
    - Bakary 4y ago
      >They can certainly have consequences though, and consequences can lead to meaning. But the point is that you do need an observer capable of perceiving that meaning. It doesn't make sense that the observer would be the source of the values, but at the same time antithetical to their existence as the OP claimed. >On one level of reality, but there are many different layers happening at the same time. Sure, but we then operate on an entirely different basis that precludes the terms such as 'value' that we are currently using. If the layer is different, then the concepts will be different to. And if we can't point to those concepts, what exactly are we discussing?
the_sleaze9 4y ago
Wow, I haven't visited the NY Post's website, but it truly is the bottom of the barrel humanity-wise
- the_only_law 4y ago
  I mean it’s a Tabloid.
VoodooJuJu 4y ago
Fools who lap up bullshit are what destroys the world.
modo_mario 4y ago
>Historian Warren Susman said that a “culture of character” gave way to a “culture of personality” and “every American was to become a performing self.” I recently came across a post asking Irish what was one American thing they were happy about had not yet seeped into Ireland much and one of the answers was the seeming fake-ness and exaggerated excitement
- withinboredom 4y ago
  > exaggerated excitement Recently had some American friends visit. They were yelling across a nice restaurant at each other. It was so embarrassing, especially because I'm originally American.
  - mancerayder 4y ago
    Americans are extremely loud, both the people and the behaviors. People talk loudly, but it's not just that - restaurants blast music, shops even blast music. There's nothing more strange than going to a fancy wine bar and having hip hop or some garbage bass music being blasted so people basically have to yell at each other. How'd it get to this point?
    - porknubbins 4y ago
      I would ask how did Europe not get to that point? Anything in America that gets coded as upper/upper middle class culture is attacked as being snobby, bourgeois, or elitist.
      - withinboredom 4y ago
        Bars, restaurants, cafes didn’t buy Sonos and turn the music up so loud you can’t have a conversation without yelling.
  - 0x20cowboy 4y ago
    I’ll just leave this here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BGc3zFOFI-s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BGc3zFOFI-s (American tourists go for breakfast)
r3trohack3r 4y ago
This is a fascinating take. I'm currently reading How to Win Friends and Influence People, 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, and Atlas Shrugged at the same time. I was surprised to see this quote: > Historian Warren Susman said that a “culture of character” gave way to a “culture of personality” and “every American was to become a performing self.” Given today's obsession with personality, Carnegie seems fairly character driven in comparison!
- poulsbohemian 4y ago
  >Given today's obsession with personality, Carnegie seems fairly character driven in comparison! I've never understood the hate for HTWFaIP... sure it's folksy and seems phony on the surface, but his core message works across time and generations - take an interest in the people you meet, as that becomes the basis of relationships. I'm an introvert, I stutter when I get nervous around people, but internalizing the core message of that book has helped me throughout life to connect with people and step outside my comfort zone consistently.
  - r3trohack3r 4y ago
    I think this is exactly it for me. It is teaching me that everyone has an interesting story to tell if you just take a moment to listen. I understand how a psychopath could take the book and do damage - but the core message seems to be genuine and solid advice. People are living an experience just like you. And, likely just like you, most seem to want others to be invested in that experience. Going on that journey with them makes making friends easy - you learn fascinating stuff every day and they feel good when they walk away from the conversation.
jose-cl 4y ago
10 years later: influencers destroy the world
PeterStuer 4y ago
It's a classic force asymmetry. One extrovert can easily ruin an entire room of introverts' experience. One introvert will have zero impact on a room full of extroverts.
dieselgate 4y ago
I’ve started to think of intro/xtroversion as a spectrum (because what isn’t) - but if two people who self describe as introverts are locked in a room together the one who is “less” introverted will probably be described as more extroverted by the other person
FunnyBadger 4y ago
Honestly most extroverts are nothing like what is described. What is described sounds far more like someone with bipolar, sociopathic or some other well established mental illness in that they have no conscience or empathy. and/or people with average to below average IQ who are just smart enough to know how to crime well but not smart enough to realize or use more productive non-criminal methods to gain what they want/need. Historically we used mental asylums and prisons to keep such people away from the broader population. Those methods worked pretty well but have largely been abandoned. Going for the root cause and obvious mistakes that removed amelioration of those root causes are the way to solve the problems that result.
trumbitta2 4y ago
I kind of feel vindicated.
stuntkite 4y ago
I find a lot of self identified introverts to be people that consider themselves silently so smart while risking nothing. The chuckleheads can keep their sorting hat and personality badges. Yeck.

121 points by revskill 4y ago

> A student reveals how, at one team-building exercise that involved working on a plan to survive subarctic temperatures, “Our action plan hinged on what the most vocal people suggested. > When the less vocal people put out ideas, those ideas were discarded. The ideas that were rejected would have kept us alive and out of trouble, but they were dismissed because of the conviction with which the more vocal people suggested their ideas.” That's like our society discuss "the most important topics" today. There are some groups screaming some agenda, which 99% doesn't care, but because they are loud and everywhere, they are able to enforce some crazy ideas

LewisVerstappen 4y ago
Yeah agreed, super important thing that most people don’t realize It was well covered in Taleb - https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
francisofascii 4y ago
Yeah, it sounds a little like herd mentality, where people make emotional rather than rational decisions. If a few people are loud and screaming for us to do X, people are influenced to do X. It could be part of our survival mechanism.

sophrocyne 4y ago

If you find yourself to be a vocal person, use your voice to make sure that even the quietest ideas are heard and considered.

DawsonBruce 4y ago
I did this at my previous employer for seven years. My peers loved me, but I could tell the executives weren’t a fan of the outspokenness. Last week I was laid off, and while the company will never admit to it, I have a feeling that my willingness to use my voice over the years attributed in part to their decision.

Tade0 4y ago

> Maybe we should stop thinking of extroverts as fun, lively enchanters and more as hollow, greasy pickpockets. I have an alternative suggestion: don't try to put people in just two, distinct categories. We're not red/blue, (pardon the racist terminology)"of color"/white, left/right. We're at least fifty shades of everything in between. This whole introvert/extrovert debate to me seems like a yet another attempt at "us vs them".

revskill 4y ago
The reality is different. In this aspect, it's real. There're only 2 types. Those who're used to be vocal or were born vocal, they couldn't stop being vocal.
- sharkbird2 4y ago
  There are degrees of introversion/extroversion as well.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  Many of them could, in fact, stop being vocal. They did not have an incentive to. They had an incentive to be/become vocal. That's the fundamental issue which has very little to do with extraversion. The world rewards loudness, and most attempts at making the world slower and more silent are actively thwarted.
  - RunSet 4y ago
    Too much "squeaky wheel gets the grease"; not enough "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down".
- xorcist 4y ago
  Of course there is no us and them But them they do not think the same
Bakary 4y ago
The discursive style of the article isn't meant to be taken so literally.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

To the defense of extroverts, most examples in the article are about hyperactive salesmen in some form selling bad ideas to people who don't know better, for a short term gain. Heck, many of these people are social chameleons pretending to be extroverts (some continuing to, some breaking down eventually, some becoming extroverts). Fundamental issue, people are 'stupid' (not always actually stupid, just exhausted, tired, unwilling to care, don't know enough, misunderstand), and society rewards individuals for taking advantage of others as long as it doesn't break the law. And even breaking the law can be profitable.

bionsystem 4y ago
Breaking the law can be massively profitable. Here we have government authorities permanently screening/scanning potential scams and frauds. I've got one of my best friends working there. It's massively underfounded and the bureaucracy is huge, meaning that even when they know someone is doing something wrong, it takes them 1-3 years to even start legal procedures. And it's getting worse with time, it's as if there is some incentives to keep things going. For example closing a restaurant because they have hygiene issues is only going to be temporary unless the issue is massive. They will have 2 or 3 shots to get it right. Calling out on somebody doing scam calls (typically to the elderly or to vulnerable people) to sell them massively overpriced services (for example 50k€ for a window replacement in their home) is virtually impossible. He told me he investigated a guy who managed to change his identity every year for 10 years, was able to travel internationally, made millions from various scams and frauds, and is nowhere near to get caught ; and they know his identity, his various scam sites and call centers, and so forth. But to enforce anything is just too complicated.
- t-3 4y ago
  It's also a lot of fun/a huge adrenaline rush. The people I've met who do nothing but scam and con love "getting over" on others. (other crime is the same I guess - drug dealers are notorious for being addicted to "the life", and I've never met a thief who wouldn't steal for fun)

bregma 4y ago

Here's the argument presented in the article. premise 1: all manipulative people are bad premise 2: some manipulative people are extroverts conclusion: all extroverts are bad I'm not sure I agree with the argument. It seems to be loudly and publicly proclaiming something as a fact when it's a logical fallacy. Not unusual these days.

wwilim 4y ago
Ironically, this is typical "strawman extrovert" behavior
tunap 4y ago
Agreed. Not all extroverts are narcissistic, sociopaths.
blantonl 4y ago
I think this article is more of a tongue in cheek rant against the culture of BS artists vs measured takedown against extroverts.
lo_zamoyski 4y ago
And don't forget fallacious conclusion #2: all introverts are good. The author does strike me as the caricaturish Hollywood movie nerd, whiny, full of self-pity, bad faith, envy, and repressed narcissism, putting down everything to do with the "popular kids" or jocks while craving all the same things. Either own up to it and saddle up, or take a good hard look at your contradictions, disingenuousness, and self-deception. Pick up Nietzsche and Scheler and learn about ressentiment because this is a textbook example. Take this revealing quote: > The school’s emphasis on networking above studious reflection makes outcasts of, for instance, many brilliant but introverted Asian students who feel out of place in this cheerleader hell. Why would this be a cheerleader hell? If the networking milieu is superficial, thoughtless, and crass, why the desperate desire to fit in with them? To be accepted by them? (Or, later on, play the game of sour grapes?) After all, aren't they worse off? Aren't they less desirable? This is incoherent. You say these introverted students are "outcasts" who feel out of place with these glad-handing extroverts. But if that is the case, then why would it ever be their goal to fit in with people you believe are so deserving of scorn and contempt? Why do you put them up on a pedestal and pout about not being accepted or even adored by them? If you were being honest, then they would never feel the need or desire to join their ranks, to receive their affection and approval. Fortune favors the bold. Hiding in your basement and expecting the world to come to you, to appreciate your ostensible greatness, while denying that of others, is perhaps the height of arrogance and egocentrism. Everyone is busy living their own lives, dealing with their own problems, just like the introvert, yet the latter expects special treatment. One of the greatest lessons I've learned in life is that it is a waste of time complaining about the state of the world. It is a waste of time blaming the world for your dissatisfactions, thinking all the while that if only the world would be a certain way, THEN I could finally flourish. This is the creed of the effeminate procrastinator. But life is a meat grinder. Waiting for it to be easy, for it to be comfortable, for the stars to align before you make a move is to waste precious time and to wait for one's death. Life is struggle. Do not pity those poor, immigrant students, dear author, because they are still better at bearing the pains and discomforts of life than the brats of the first world who can only survive in the rarefied confines of their warm, padded cells. Their children, however...

CPLX 4y ago

There’s really just nothing wrong with being charming, and no moral authority that derives from not being so. Being personally ingratiating is simply an ability, like the ability to lift heavier objects or mentally rotate shapes. It has utility, but is not a moral force.

im3w1l 4y ago

> When the less vocal people put out ideas, those ideas were discarded. The ideas that were rejected would have kept us alive and out of trouble, but they were dismissed because of the conviction with which the more vocal people suggested their ideas. I do think there are technological and social ways of at least lessening this issue. For instance the secret ballot might qualify. Planning poker is somehow similar, everyone commits to a secret opinion, but in this case they are then later revealed and used as a starting point for a discussion. Maybe Roberts Rules of Order. And for a big curveball, I think capitalism is actually also a countermeasure. By having parallel competing organizations, it means that if group-think hold takes hold in one of them, other organizations with different ideas can overtake it.

danaris 4y ago
Secret ballots are only helpful once everyone's already made a decision internally about what to do. In the scenario described, the problem wasn't people not choosing the better ideas because they were afraid of retaliation. It was them thinking the louder ideas were better because they were louder. It's very hard to solve problems like this with fancy procedures. IMO what's needed is a cultural shift to respect people's opinions and not lionize the loud and flashy.
- t-3 4y ago
  Secret ballots in a representative democracy actually demonstrate the problem very well. Often the choice ends up between the two loudest candidates. The tendencies towards binary "us vs them" thinking and using magnitude as an estimate of correctness seem to me to be instinctual social reactions, the type of thing that needs training and constant self-reflection to recognize and consciously avoid succumbing to or exploiting. It's unreasonable to expect anyone to constantly be on guard against themselves or to avoid using every available tool to achieve success, especially when we are so good at rationalizing our positions on anything. What's required might be a technical solution (not necessarily technological) - arranging meetings and discussions so that everyone can be seen and heard, using formats that promote reasoned discussion, greater expectations of formality and politeness, etc. A change of rules could kickstart a cultural change, but would certainly change how people behave in the fora where they were implemented.

GoToRO 4y ago

are almost all these HN comments from extroverts? :))

revskill 4y ago
Writing is not vocal.
- throw-ru-938 4y ago
  Yet many of us here are lurkers and don't bother to write.

brianmcc 4y ago

I really enjoyed this rant/vent, and IMO occasionally just a gush of frustration about A Thing is entirely healthy :-) I think we do value surface traits too highly - "magnetic, fascinating, stunning, attractive, glowing, dominant, forceful and energetic" - as the article illustrates. Why not, I mean they are positive and nice and not to be condemned in any way, but they are just a bit too valued over other better traits - the downgraded "citizenship, duty, work, golden deeds, honor, reputation, morals, manners and integrity". A society which lauded the quiet achievers, or simply the concept of diligent accomplishment, would be nice I think.

blantonl 4y ago
How about these surface traits: "Biggest, Greatest, Best, Smartest, Bigly" Sound familiar? :)
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
dtjohnnyb 4y ago
"The Captain Class" is a great book that glorifies the "water carriers" of a bunch of successful sporting dynasties. It certainly gave me a lot of encouragement to try to develop more of the traits shown by those great captains.
saiya-jin 4y ago
I'd say Swiss society is pretty close to what you wish for. Also northern Europe ones. I don't think its a coincidence that all rank among happiest countries in whole world. There is just something good that gets delivered sustainably into society with this approach, and over time it shows. Self-feeding circle. I sure hope future decades don't destroy it too much with immigration, I think Swiss have the best approach for this, staying away from EU certainly benefited them for independent decisions (come here if our society needs you, stay if you respect rules, learn language and don't break law seriously... a lot of far right movements in the world would be marginal if this was followed by politicians diligently). And yet they have by far the highest immigration in whole Europe.

gherkinnn 4y ago

What a terrible post. I can't think of a time in which charismatic and outgoing people didn't have an advantage. We're highly social animals. Of course it is beneficial to navigate and engage with a social environment. The author paints a tired straw man and puts himself and all other introverts in the role of a victim. The former is unhelpful and the latter downright harmful. Sincerely, a so-called introvert.

thejackgoode 4y ago
Hmm, times in which you could've get mugged by grim and not really that talkative people for making too much noise at some tavern, perhaps?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
BlargMcLarg 4y ago
The article, despite it's poor quality, goes a little deeper than just 'charisma'. Gentlemen and cowboys are two archetypes of stoic, charismatic men which valued calmth over being active and vocal. There were plenty of times being as vocal as people are today would be incredibly stupid at best, and paint a target at worst. Being outgoing has little to do with sheer volume or pushing others out of the picture. Also, amount and frequency of contact is far higher than before. I find it more plausible loudness is a bandaid among a society trying to continue at breakneck speed, than being inherently more charismatic.

shipman05 4y ago

"I remember feeling derisive about marketing as a young techie — it wasn’t creating the value. Nowadays, I often marvel at how much amazing value is present that people just don’t know about. If only there was a way to bring it to their attention…" - John Carmack https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1551587190395789312 https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1551587190395789312

balsam 4y ago
“A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes” — Mark Twain, apocryphally. If only there were a way to encourage these extraverts to focus only on the value..
pwdisswordfish9 4y ago
All the more reason to be derisive about marketing then.
As_You_Wish 4y ago
Yes, I invented a cure for all forms of cancer in my basement. I've told nobody at all about it. For some reason, nobody is coming into my basement wanting to be cured of cancer. It's almost like nobody knows that I cured cancer, even though I haven't told a soul about it. Why don't people just know? Why do I have to talk to people or let others know? Don't they just know through ESP or something???
- Doxin 4y ago
  Of course in reality if you e.g. invent a new vacuum cleaner you hardly need to market it. People interested in buying a vacuum cleaner will show up at shops selling vacuum cleaners.
  - As_You_Wish 4y ago
    Yes, but how are you going to let people who have shops know that you have a new vacuum cleaner? If you invent a new vacuum cleaner in your basement, and don't tell a soul about it, how are vacuum cleaner shops even going to know that you have a new vacuum cleaner to begin with? If you do anything, anything to let people know that you have a vacuum cleaner - whether website, cold call, flyers, newspaper ads, get a store with signage, direct mail, going to trade shows - every single thing to get the word out is marketing. Ever single thing. If you even talk to someone that you pass by on the streets, and tell them you have a great vacuum cleaner, that's marketing. There's nothing anyone can do to sell anything without marketing. Because marketing definitionally means anything done to sell something. Nothing sells without marketing. Post it here on this very website we are now in and let people know...that's still marketing. Everything is marketing. Also, as I am one who has tried to sell stuff to stores that sell stuff, it is not easy. There are multitudes of scenarios in cold calling, for example: Me: Hi, my name is Joe Smith. I have this new vacuum cleaner that I invented, do you want to sell it? Vacuum shop: Yeah, my boss does all the purchasing, but she's out of the country for 3 months so you'll have to call back then. . Me: Hi, my name is Joe Smith. I have this new vacuum cleaner that I invented, do you want to sell it? Vacuum shop: No, we have an overstock of vacuum cleaners right now, call me back next year. . Me: Hi, my name is Joe Smith. I have this new vacuum cleaner that I invented, do you want to sell it? Vacuum shop: What is the list price? Me: $1500 Vacuum shop: No, we only sell vacuum cleaners that go up to $200 because we are in a low-income area. . This goes on and on with a million permutations.

vblplan 4y ago

I have a hard time understanding the negativity about this article. When a mainstream publication says "extroverts do X", the general public understands that it does not mean "all extroverts do X". We have all seen the damage that some extroverts can do to meetings, where they shamelessly namedrop half understood concepts that need to be refuted one by one. We have all seen open source projects being taken over by a mediocre, loud-mouthed politician cabal, who slowly become the project's public face on Twitter and quash dissent with lies and persistence. Of course extroverts are needed in diplomacy, etc. But how to keep them honest is an unsolved problem.

park777 4y ago
I would say that being an extrovert isn’t really what defines those people you mention. In fact, I bet many introverts are capable of doing the same things. But oh well, you can never stop humans from putting other humans in boxes.
BlargMcLarg 4y ago
>the general public understands that it does not mean "all extroverts do X" General public very noticeable does not. The myriad of stereotypes still existing today despite empirical evidence of the opposite couldn't speak louder. If not 'all', certainly 'most'. Surely someone on HN would know a thing or two about generalizations and their adoption as stereotypes when repeated often enough.
- mistermann 4y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-dependent_memory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-dependent_memory

mihaaly 4y ago

I agree.

ianai 4y ago

Humans. Humans destroy everything. Edit-if you want to say I’m wrong. Don’t say it. Live it. Show with your actions that humans don’t destroy but instead create. Create, cultivate, and generally reinforce life and diversity. Otherwise the sentence stands.

jason-phillips 4y ago
I happen to agree with you. It's not really an extrovert thing, it's a lack-of-intelligence-combined-with-bad-decisions thing, which humanity possesses in more than ample quantities.
Bakary 4y ago
These positive traits you cite are defined by human minds and have no meaning outside of them. Their value is determined by humans. The mere fact that these are seen as valuable by humans is already a good indication that humans do these things or help them along.
- mistermann 4y ago
  > These positive traits you cite are defined by human minds and have no meaning outside of them. They can certainly have consequences though, and consequences can lead to meaning. > Their value is determined by humans. On one level of reality, but there are many different layers happening at the same time.
  - ianai 4y ago
    I like it. Valuation through consequence.
  - Bakary 4y ago
    >They can certainly have consequences though, and consequences can lead to meaning. But the point is that you do need an observer capable of perceiving that meaning. It doesn't make sense that the observer would be the source of the values, but at the same time antithetical to their existence as the OP claimed. >On one level of reality, but there are many different layers happening at the same time. Sure, but we then operate on an entirely different basis that precludes the terms such as 'value' that we are currently using. If the layer is different, then the concepts will be different to. And if we can't point to those concepts, what exactly are we discussing?

the_sleaze9 4y ago

Wow, I haven't visited the NY Post's website, but it truly is the bottom of the barrel humanity-wise

the_only_law 4y ago
I mean it’s a Tabloid.

VoodooJuJu 4y ago

Fools who lap up bullshit are what destroys the world.

modo_mario 4y ago

>Historian Warren Susman said that a “culture of character” gave way to a “culture of personality” and “every American was to become a performing self.” I recently came across a post asking Irish what was one American thing they were happy about had not yet seeped into Ireland much and one of the answers was the seeming fake-ness and exaggerated excitement

withinboredom 4y ago
> exaggerated excitement Recently had some American friends visit. They were yelling across a nice restaurant at each other. It was so embarrassing, especially because I'm originally American.
- mancerayder 4y ago
  Americans are extremely loud, both the people and the behaviors. People talk loudly, but it's not just that - restaurants blast music, shops even blast music. There's nothing more strange than going to a fancy wine bar and having hip hop or some garbage bass music being blasted so people basically have to yell at each other. How'd it get to this point?
  - porknubbins 4y ago
    I would ask how did Europe not get to that point? Anything in America that gets coded as upper/upper middle class culture is attacked as being snobby, bourgeois, or elitist.
    - withinboredom 4y ago
      Bars, restaurants, cafes didn’t buy Sonos and turn the music up so loud you can’t have a conversation without yelling.
- 0x20cowboy 4y ago
  I’ll just leave this here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BGc3zFOFI-s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BGc3zFOFI-s (American tourists go for breakfast)

r3trohack3r 4y ago

This is a fascinating take. I'm currently reading How to Win Friends and Influence People, 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, and Atlas Shrugged at the same time. I was surprised to see this quote: > Historian Warren Susman said that a “culture of character” gave way to a “culture of personality” and “every American was to become a performing self.” Given today's obsession with personality, Carnegie seems fairly character driven in comparison!

poulsbohemian 4y ago
>Given today's obsession with personality, Carnegie seems fairly character driven in comparison! I've never understood the hate for HTWFaIP... sure it's folksy and seems phony on the surface, but his core message works across time and generations - take an interest in the people you meet, as that becomes the basis of relationships. I'm an introvert, I stutter when I get nervous around people, but internalizing the core message of that book has helped me throughout life to connect with people and step outside my comfort zone consistently.
- r3trohack3r 4y ago
  I think this is exactly it for me. It is teaching me that everyone has an interesting story to tell if you just take a moment to listen. I understand how a psychopath could take the book and do damage - but the core message seems to be genuine and solid advice. People are living an experience just like you. And, likely just like you, most seem to want others to be invested in that experience. Going on that journey with them makes making friends easy - you learn fascinating stuff every day and they feel good when they walk away from the conversation.

jose-cl 4y ago

10 years later: influencers destroy the world

PeterStuer 4y ago

It's a classic force asymmetry. One extrovert can easily ruin an entire room of introverts' experience. One introvert will have zero impact on a room full of extroverts.

dieselgate 4y ago

I’ve started to think of intro/xtroversion as a spectrum (because what isn’t) - but if two people who self describe as introverts are locked in a room together the one who is “less” introverted will probably be described as more extroverted by the other person

FunnyBadger 4y ago

Honestly most extroverts are nothing like what is described. What is described sounds far more like someone with bipolar, sociopathic or some other well established mental illness in that they have no conscience or empathy. and/or people with average to below average IQ who are just smart enough to know how to crime well but not smart enough to realize or use more productive non-criminal methods to gain what they want/need. Historically we used mental asylums and prisons to keep such people away from the broader population. Those methods worked pretty well but have largely been abandoned. Going for the root cause and obvious mistakes that removed amelioration of those root causes are the way to solve the problems that result.

trumbitta2 4y ago

I kind of feel vindicated.

stuntkite 4y ago

I find a lot of self identified introverts to be people that consider themselves silently so smart while risking nothing. The chuckleheads can keep their sorting hat and personality badges. Yeck.