7 ms·

How can you "refuse to pay"? Certainly this should only incur more penalties or perhaps a criminal prosecution against whomever is ignoring the court order?

kansface 4y ago
Endless appeals and delays in order to force a settlement.
TakeBlaster16 4y ago
I remember the headlines when a bank refused to pay a judgement and the sheriff showed up later to foreclose on a local branch. That might be the next move here. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/06/06/137002727/sweet-justice-a-florida-couple-forecloses-on-bank-of-america https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/06/06/137002727...
- jwilk 4y ago
  Text-only version: https://text.npr.org/137002727 https://text.npr.org/137002727
CitrusFruits 4y ago
Up until this point, I believe it's because the appealed. While the appeal is pending, you don't have to pay. After the last appeal was denied, however, I don't know what the process is. My guess is the lawyers are getting creative.
- voisin 4y ago
  You don’t have to pay, but interest accrues and every time you appeal and lose you end up paying a big portion of the winner’s legal costs, so you are just digging your own grave if you’ve got a loser case that you keep prolonging.
  - Tangurena2 4y ago
    There are more than a few corporations that follow "scorched earth" tactics when they're sued. Never underestimate the power and longevity of spite. Many litigants won't pay until after you are dead. No matter how much that costs - they can't let you "win".
- rjmunro 4y ago
  > While the appeal is pending, you don't have to pay. They need to change this so that at least all legal costs have to be paid while appeal is pending, then if the appeal succeeds, they have to pay it back.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Oberlin has already been assessed legal costs post-penalty-phase.
- jsmith45 4y ago
  Technically they have 14 days after the denial by the Ohio supreme court during which they could appeal to the US Supreme Court. so until that windows has closed, the initial court won't force the issue. Then the state may have some time period to allow the the losing party to pay. If they have still not done so, the winning party can petition for a writ of execution, which allows you to take the judgment which is basically a floating lein, and attach it to specific property of the debtor. The property can then be levied, garnished, or foreclosed upon, usually with the help of the exeutive. Attaching to real property is often fraught, because the forclosure process is complicated, and plenty of real property will have other liens on it, for example from a mortgage. This makes forclosing much more complicated. Levies against "personal property" (chattel) can be somewhat easier, with the sheriff seizing the property, selling it at public auction, and giving you the proceeds up the the judgment amount and interest, and giving the rest back to the debtor. But while cool sounding, this is often fairly impractical due to the fact that a lot of chattel property has little value (or at least will get little money at auction), and the property worth substantial money is more likely to be leased, or subject to a loan, or other similar complications. Attaching to and garnishing funds from a bank aaccount, or levying other intangible assets may be the easiest approach, especially for an organization like the college. For example attaching to the stocks/bonds etc that make up the colledge endowment would be able to recover this judgment without issue. (although attaching to intangible assets may be more complicated than physical assets, depending on state laws.) Realistically, the moment you start trying to do any of this, the other party (if solvent and able to pay) will often suddenly be more than happy to just give you the money. (It turns out to be much cheaper and easier for them that way).
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nradov 4y ago
The article is missing specific legal details so it's hard to tell what's really going on. In general Gibson's Bakery could go back to the trial court and seek a legal order to enforce the judgment, possibly by ordering Oberlin College's bank to directly transfer funds. If the college defies a specific court order then eventually the court could jail college employees for contempt, but that wouldn't be a criminal prosecution.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
legohead 4y ago
Well, it appears the amount jumped from 31m to 36m after the Supreme Court, so they did get some kind of penalty there somewhere.
- colechristensen 4y ago
  Additional legal fees tend to go to the winner.
- Tangurena2 4y ago
  Interest starts accruing when the judgement is first handed down. Sometimes, courts will require the loser to post a bond before allowing them to appeal the verdict.
impossiblefork 4y ago
They're just appealing the case repeatedly. If the judgement holds they will presumably have to pay eventually.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dcdc123 4y ago
They just exhausted their last evenue for appeal two days ago, payment is likely going to come "soon".
hardtke 4y ago
Apparently OJ Simpson had only paid the Goldman family $133K of the 50M he was ordered to pay as of last year[1]. [1] https://www.ktnv.com/news/national/judge-denies-motion-oj-simpson-to-continue-to-pay-goldman-family https://www.ktnv.com/news/national/judge-denies-motion-oj-si...
- peter422 4y ago
  Shielding your assets is a lot easier if you are a bad faith, “bankrupt” person than if you are a permanent business.
- sgjohnson 4y ago
  OJ Simpson is bankrupt, isn’t he?
  - hardtke 4y ago
    I think he used some combination of a pension and the unlimited homestead exemption in Florida to shield most of his assets. Since we don't have debtors prisons there is not much you can do to make people pay.
tptacek 4y ago
You can't. The story is misleading.

kansface 4y ago

Endless appeals and delays in order to force a settlement.

TakeBlaster16 4y ago

I remember the headlines when a bank refused to pay a judgement and the sheriff showed up later to foreclose on a local branch. That might be the next move here. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/06/06/137002727/sweet-justice-a-florida-couple-forecloses-on-bank-of-america https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/06/06/137002727...

jwilk 4y ago
Text-only version: https://text.npr.org/137002727 https://text.npr.org/137002727

CitrusFruits 4y ago

Up until this point, I believe it's because the appealed. While the appeal is pending, you don't have to pay. After the last appeal was denied, however, I don't know what the process is. My guess is the lawyers are getting creative.

voisin 4y ago
You don’t have to pay, but interest accrues and every time you appeal and lose you end up paying a big portion of the winner’s legal costs, so you are just digging your own grave if you’ve got a loser case that you keep prolonging.
- Tangurena2 4y ago
  There are more than a few corporations that follow "scorched earth" tactics when they're sued. Never underestimate the power and longevity of spite. Many litigants won't pay until after you are dead. No matter how much that costs - they can't let you "win".
rjmunro 4y ago
> While the appeal is pending, you don't have to pay. They need to change this so that at least all legal costs have to be paid while appeal is pending, then if the appeal succeeds, they have to pay it back.
- tptacek 4y ago
  Oberlin has already been assessed legal costs post-penalty-phase.
jsmith45 4y ago
Technically they have 14 days after the denial by the Ohio supreme court during which they could appeal to the US Supreme Court. so until that windows has closed, the initial court won't force the issue. Then the state may have some time period to allow the the losing party to pay. If they have still not done so, the winning party can petition for a writ of execution, which allows you to take the judgment which is basically a floating lein, and attach it to specific property of the debtor. The property can then be levied, garnished, or foreclosed upon, usually with the help of the exeutive. Attaching to real property is often fraught, because the forclosure process is complicated, and plenty of real property will have other liens on it, for example from a mortgage. This makes forclosing much more complicated. Levies against "personal property" (chattel) can be somewhat easier, with the sheriff seizing the property, selling it at public auction, and giving you the proceeds up the the judgment amount and interest, and giving the rest back to the debtor. But while cool sounding, this is often fairly impractical due to the fact that a lot of chattel property has little value (or at least will get little money at auction), and the property worth substantial money is more likely to be leased, or subject to a loan, or other similar complications. Attaching to and garnishing funds from a bank aaccount, or levying other intangible assets may be the easiest approach, especially for an organization like the college. For example attaching to the stocks/bonds etc that make up the colledge endowment would be able to recover this judgment without issue. (although attaching to intangible assets may be more complicated than physical assets, depending on state laws.) Realistically, the moment you start trying to do any of this, the other party (if solvent and able to pay) will often suddenly be more than happy to just give you the money. (It turns out to be much cheaper and easier for them that way).

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

nradov 4y ago

The article is missing specific legal details so it's hard to tell what's really going on. In general Gibson's Bakery could go back to the trial court and seek a legal order to enforce the judgment, possibly by ordering Oberlin College's bank to directly transfer funds. If the college defies a specific court order then eventually the court could jail college employees for contempt, but that wouldn't be a criminal prosecution.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

legohead 4y ago

Well, it appears the amount jumped from 31m to 36m after the Supreme Court, so they did get some kind of penalty there somewhere.

colechristensen 4y ago
Additional legal fees tend to go to the winner.
Tangurena2 4y ago
Interest starts accruing when the judgement is first handed down. Sometimes, courts will require the loser to post a bond before allowing them to appeal the verdict.

impossiblefork 4y ago

They're just appealing the case repeatedly. If the judgement holds they will presumably have to pay eventually.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

dcdc123 4y ago

They just exhausted their last evenue for appeal two days ago, payment is likely going to come "soon".

hardtke 4y ago

Apparently OJ Simpson had only paid the Goldman family $133K of the 50M he was ordered to pay as of last year[1]. [1] https://www.ktnv.com/news/national/judge-denies-motion-oj-simpson-to-continue-to-pay-goldman-family https://www.ktnv.com/news/national/judge-denies-motion-oj-si...

peter422 4y ago
Shielding your assets is a lot easier if you are a bad faith, “bankrupt” person than if you are a permanent business.
sgjohnson 4y ago
OJ Simpson is bankrupt, isn’t he?
- hardtke 4y ago
  I think he used some combination of a pension and the unlimited homestead exemption in Florida to shield most of his assets. Since we don't have debtors prisons there is not much you can do to make people pay.

tptacek 4y ago

You can't. The story is misleading.