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The belief that more rational beliefs are possible is not exactly debatable, is it? Certainly, the “woo” stuff you referenced is not the only alternative? That

The belief that more rational beliefs are possible is not exactly debatable, is it? Certainly, the “woo” stuff you referenced is not the only alternative? That people have to believe in some “religion” and that common “religions” at the current point in history are at peak possible rationality… well, there’s no real reason to believe that, is there?

imchillyb 4y ago
Sure if s person is willing to completely ignore reality for pie in the sky…
- qsort 4y ago
  There are at least three different claims here that I'd like to unpack: 1) "If you really have to pick a belief system to put your faith in, you can do much worse than traditional religion." Now, I'm a lifelong atheist, and atheism is one of the few things I never changed my mind on, but I came to the conclusion that this is probably true: at the very least, traditional religion is a stable belief system that won't destroy your life. 2) "A lot of people who aren't traditionally religious, actually follow some random bullshit creed that's much worse than religion." I agree with this, there is a genuine human need religion fulfills and many might want to "fill the void" with subpar alternatives. 3) "If you are an atheist, then you necessarily fall into case (2)." Which is blatantly false, as the existence of millions of perfectly well-adjusted and functioning atheists shows.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    To be clear, I’m not asserting that (3) is the case. I’m just saying that as a practical matter it’s a small number and a lot of people that abandon traditional religion fall into your (2).
    - unmole 4y ago
      Believing religious woo doesn't preclude one from believing non-religious woo. If anything, believing religious woo seems correlated with believing non-religious woo: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/07/27/what-drives-belief-in-conspiracy-theories-a-lack-of-religion-or-too-much https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/07/27/what-dri...
      - skissane 4y ago
        Evidence that such a correlation exists for “white evangelicals” in the US tells us nothing about whether it exists for religious people in general - including religious Americans from other racial/religious backgrounds, and non-Americans. Your observation might not be true for religion at all, only for a very specific type of it
  - sigmoid10 4y ago
    >at the very least, traditional religion is a stable belief system that won't destroy your life. That might be true in liberal western democracies, but there are many parts of the world where your particular choice of religion may well destroy your life or straight up get you killed, if the people behind the next coup don't share your beliefs. Even in the west you might hinder your own success if you pick a non-majority system.
  - staticman2 4y ago
    The idea that religious people don't have bullshit creeds outside their religion is a false one. Religious people in America act religious on Sunday and like ruthless, immoral "greed is good" capitalists on Monday, flexibly switching ideologies for their convenience.
    - ovi256 4y ago
      You're describing someone with a ruthless flexible ideology. A truly religious person would apply the principles of their religion during the week too.
roenxi 4y ago
I'd rather the people in charge were patient, thoughtful and rational. But it is interesting to consider that a rational person may, under some circumstances, want irrational leadership. Easy example at the moment, I think it is obvious from game theory that there are situations where a rational actor in the US would order a nuclear strike on Russia. Under such circumstances, I'd rather the person with the power to do so acted irrationally. Following this line of thought, it is reasonable to support extremely religious people with irrational ideals for high office - as long as what they actually do gets a good outcome. Eg, a strong belief in a higher power might sometimes drive the sort of people who are willing to decentralise executive authority amongst the masses.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
robbiep 4y ago
Show me a person who is completely ‘rational’ across their entire belief system and maybe we’ll have a conversation - I haven’t seen it and I am surrounded by highly educated, highly rational people, most of whom would profess to be atheist or agnostic. I believe it’s part of human nature. It’s exhausting being totally rational

imchillyb 4y ago

Sure if s person is willing to completely ignore reality for pie in the sky…

qsort 4y ago
There are at least three different claims here that I'd like to unpack: 1) "If you really have to pick a belief system to put your faith in, you can do much worse than traditional religion." Now, I'm a lifelong atheist, and atheism is one of the few things I never changed my mind on, but I came to the conclusion that this is probably true: at the very least, traditional religion is a stable belief system that won't destroy your life. 2) "A lot of people who aren't traditionally religious, actually follow some random bullshit creed that's much worse than religion." I agree with this, there is a genuine human need religion fulfills and many might want to "fill the void" with subpar alternatives. 3) "If you are an atheist, then you necessarily fall into case (2)." Which is blatantly false, as the existence of millions of perfectly well-adjusted and functioning atheists shows.
- rayiner 4y ago
  To be clear, I’m not asserting that (3) is the case. I’m just saying that as a practical matter it’s a small number and a lot of people that abandon traditional religion fall into your (2).
  - unmole 4y ago
    Believing religious woo doesn't preclude one from believing non-religious woo. If anything, believing religious woo seems correlated with believing non-religious woo: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/07/27/what-drives-belief-in-conspiracy-theories-a-lack-of-religion-or-too-much https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/07/27/what-dri...
    - skissane 4y ago
      Evidence that such a correlation exists for “white evangelicals” in the US tells us nothing about whether it exists for religious people in general - including religious Americans from other racial/religious backgrounds, and non-Americans. Your observation might not be true for religion at all, only for a very specific type of it
- sigmoid10 4y ago
  >at the very least, traditional religion is a stable belief system that won't destroy your life. That might be true in liberal western democracies, but there are many parts of the world where your particular choice of religion may well destroy your life or straight up get you killed, if the people behind the next coup don't share your beliefs. Even in the west you might hinder your own success if you pick a non-majority system.
- staticman2 4y ago
  The idea that religious people don't have bullshit creeds outside their religion is a false one. Religious people in America act religious on Sunday and like ruthless, immoral "greed is good" capitalists on Monday, flexibly switching ideologies for their convenience.
  - ovi256 4y ago
    You're describing someone with a ruthless flexible ideology. A truly religious person would apply the principles of their religion during the week too.

roenxi 4y ago

I'd rather the people in charge were patient, thoughtful and rational. But it is interesting to consider that a rational person may, under some circumstances, want irrational leadership. Easy example at the moment, I think it is obvious from game theory that there are situations where a rational actor in the US would order a nuclear strike on Russia. Under such circumstances, I'd rather the person with the power to do so acted irrationally. Following this line of thought, it is reasonable to support extremely religious people with irrational ideals for high office - as long as what they actually do gets a good outcome. Eg, a strong belief in a higher power might sometimes drive the sort of people who are willing to decentralise executive authority amongst the masses.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

robbiep 4y ago

Show me a person who is completely ‘rational’ across their entire belief system and maybe we’ll have a conversation - I haven’t seen it and I am surrounded by highly educated, highly rational people, most of whom would profess to be atheist or agnostic. I believe it’s part of human nature. It’s exhausting being totally rational