21 ms·

Arm sues Qualcomm, aiming to unwind Qualcomm's $1.4B Nuvia purchase

81 points by retskrad 4y ago

amitkjain 4y ago
- Octoth0rpe 4y ago
  Did you perhaps misread the title? This is _arm_ suing, not Apple. I can't think of anything in particular Apple has done to kill competition in the SoC space, other than _maybe_ buying up large amounts of fab capacity, which is pretty forgivable.
  - ZiiS 4y ago
    Releasing chips that are years ahead of the competitors significantly reduces competition.
    - selykg 4y ago
      Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but are you saying they should hold back their own chips so as to make it fair for the competition?
      - zer0zzz 4y ago
        Perhaps he’s implying that apple is pulling the strings and arm is doing this because of some pressure from apple? Outside that I can’t imagine how this comment makes any sense.
        selykg 4y ago
        lol, I'm just confused. One of the reason's Apple has such a big lead, according to all the discussion I've seen here on HackerNews is that it's because Apple is on a newer chip process (5nm) whereas everyone is behind, and that if the competition was on a better process the differences wouldn't be as stark. The reason Apple is using a better process is they are investing so heavily in TSMC so that the process can be improved, and for that investment they get sort of a "dibs" on production, which, honestly seems fair. It's not like Apple sees TSMC as a charity here and I don't think anyone could argue otherwise. Also, as is probably obvious with Apple using these chips in iPhones, iPads, Apple TV, Watches, and now Macs (A series, M series, etc) they might be one of the largest single customers of TSMC and to even be able to produce enough of those chips they need to buy production well in advance. I don't know, people can claim unfair advantage all they want but looking at it from a business standpoint Apple is moving things forward.
        smoldesu 4y ago
        Where do we draw the line for unfair advantage, then? Apple is already the single largest company in the world. What would it take for you to admit they're abusing their market position?
        2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
        The first Apple designed chip to see production was the A4 released all the way back in 2010. So it would have been in design stages some years before that. I find it hard to believe industry insiders didn't have some inkling what Apple was trying to pull some vertical integration move during all that. All the normies would have been given ideas by the A7, the first 64 bit design. I think that's when the iPhone benchmarks really started pulling well ahead. It's not like Apple didn't telegraph their move almost a decade in advance. I'm not sure what you're suggesting.
        selykg 4y ago
        > What would it take for you to admit they're abusing their market position? More than someone simply claiming it. Loudly proclaiming it in a comment isn't showing your work. This is like math class, show me the work. How are they abusing their market position?
        rdsnsca 4y ago
        Proof
        amitkjain 4y ago
        Apple already filed lawsuit of Nuvia but could not stop Qualcomm from making Windows on ARm latop chips which is their biggest worry.
        scarface74 4y ago
        They are abusing their market position by investing billions in TSMC so they can make better chips? It’s not like Android is backed by a tiny startup. But more to the point, what does an article about ARM suing Qualcomm have to do with Apple?
        amitkjain 4y ago
        You got it right.Apple is scared of Windows on ARM laptops. ARM would benefit if Qualcomm makes ARM chips for laptops. Apple would have threatened to move to RISC V if ARM allows Qualcomm to continue with Nuvia.
    - vocram 4y ago
      Releasing chips behind the competition has the same effect
    - bogwog 4y ago
      Remember that sarcasm doesn't work on the internet. You need to be explicit about it, such as by adding a "/s" at the end.
    - ZiiS 4y ago
      Sorry I missed the "/s". I was just trying to sympathize with any engineer being asked to compete with the m1.
protomyth 4y ago
Arm is seeking an injunction that would require Qualcomm to destroy designs developed under Nuvia’s license agreements with Arm. Arm alleged its approval was needed before these could be transferred to Qualcomm. This makes no sense at all. I'm trying to figure out the upside for ARM other than they earn more money on their cores. It would certainly put a large damper on the rock star chip designers since they couldn't sell their firms as easily.
- dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
  Suing your customers is never a good strategy (see the music industry). The logic really doesn't make sense. If you try to use a design made by someone else with an architecture licence and you have an architecture licence, ARM has to approve it? I guess they're trying to protect themselves as the sole seller of ARM designs, but even then Qualcomm didn't buy a design, they bought the company. ARM seems to be going overboard here. And all while RISC-V is nipping at their heels. It's like they want to make it really clear how troublesome licencing proprietary arches is.
  - salawat 4y ago
    No... This is contracts 101, and furthermore, how fabs want to manage IP. If you want ARM, you play by ARM's rules. Or you don't get to use the license. Either ARM is about to learn a valuable lesson about knowledge wanting to be free, or Qualcomm is the about to get beaten with the lawsuit bat. I think it's ludicrous we even bother with this daftness, but seeing as everything has to revolve around money, it is what it is.
    - dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
      It's not really contracts 101, it's a question of what's in the contract that ARM is relying on. They're basically saying you can't transfer any IP without their permission. Who would agree to those terms, if creating IP is your business, and how could Qualcomm miss that if it was clearly stated in the contract? I just can't see Qualcomm's lawyers flubbing this one. They are an extremely aggressive company when it comes to IP and the law. It's not like they don't have top notch IP lawyers. If ARM persists in this stupidity my money is on Qualcomm tearing them a new one.
cwizou 4y ago
Found a tiny bit more information on arm's press site : https://www.arm.com/company/news/2022/08/arm-files-lawsuit-against-qualcomm-and-nuvia-for-breach-of-license-agreements-and-trademark-infringement https://www.arm.com/company/news/2022/08/arm-files-lawsuit-a... > Because Qualcomm attempted to transfer Nuvia licenses without Arm’s consent, which is a standard restriction under Arm’s license agreements, Nuvia’s licenses terminated in March 2022. Before and after that date, Arm made multiple good faith efforts to seek a resolution. If I understand this correctly, arm's licences have an approval process in case of acquisitions for license transfer (which is pretty common), and Qualcomm thought that because they had their own (probably a lot broader) set of arm licenses, they didn't need to seek their approval (or more likely, didn't want to pay some extra transfer cost ?) ? I can see Qualcomm's argument from a layman's point of view, arm claims that something designed by licensee A can't be transferred to licensee B without their approval, which seems a bit broad of a reach but contracts are weird I guess ? There's no doubt Nuvia's contracts was less favorable to whatever set of licenses Qualcomm operates with arm (relative company sizes and all). Reuters article goes on about Qualcomm eventually ditching arm's Cortex designs and replacing them by Nuvia's being what this is about. That seems a bit of a stretch, and would be a large pivot in how arm used to operate with its licensees that would send a chilling effect if true. So I'd be quite surprised if that was the case, considering arm is not under new management. I'm not saying there can't be tensions or bruised execs egos on both sides about this, but this seems a bit of a radical step to suspend Nuvia's license and ask that all their design IP be destroyed.
- prasadjoglekar 4y ago
  Assignment of terms of a contract upon acquisition being subject to approval by asignor is a pretty standard contract clause.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
    But how does Qualcomm need Nuvia's license when it has its own? And having the designs destroyed because of this wrinkle seems pretty rich. The licence was valid when the designs were created, but now they're not because the design (not the licence) was transferred to someone else?
VMtest 4y ago
adrian_b 4y ago
Arm's filed complaint: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/22273195/arm-v-qualcomm-99-9999-stamped-complaint.pdf https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/22273195/arm-v-qualco... I find it interesting that Arm Ltd. has demanded a trial by jury. I would have thought that as a risk in a case which depends on interpreting correctly the wording of a business contract.
korginator 4y ago
A related article [1] says that (a) ARM granted licenses to Nuvia with terms that disallowed any transfer to Qualcomm, but (b) the licenses were transferred to a newly formed entity and not to Qualcomm. Wouldn't the outcome of the case depend on the judge's interpretation of the contracts then? I can't imagine Qualcomm with their attack-dog lawyers missing something like this. [1] https://www.tomshardware.com/news/arm-sues-qualcomm-and-nuvia-for-breaking-license-agreement https://www.tomshardware.com/news/arm-sues-qualcomm-and-nuvi...
- rickdeckard 4y ago
  I can't imagine that a contract between Nuvia and ARM namedropped Qualcomm instead of simply stating that a transfer of license and work under that license requires consent of ARM.
ycdrhtscb 4y ago
TLDR ARM want to force Qualcomm to continue buying their crppy designed cpus and Qualcomm would prefer to use a better custom designed architecture from nuvia.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
rickdeckard 4y ago
The court-filing describes ARM's position quite well: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/22273195/arm-v-qualcomm-99-9999-stamped-complaint.pdf https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/22273195/arm-v-qualco... My nutshell: 1. ARM gave a broad range of licenses to Nuvia to develop an ARM-based architecture for use in servers, with a license-fee to match this objective (probably a favorable one, because it's a field ARM aims to expand): "Nuvia’s licensing fees and royalty rates reflected the anticipated scope and nature of Nuvia’s use of the Arm architecture. The licenses safeguarded Arm’s rights and expectations by prohibiting assignment without Arm’s consent, regardless of whether a contemplated assignee had its own Arm licenses." 2. Qualcomm acquires Nuvia with the intention to use the developed IP for (quote): "powering flagship smartphones, next-generation laptops, and digital cockpits, as well as Advanced Driver Assistance Systems, extended reality and infrastructure networking solutions" Sounds quite reasonable if the claim is validated: ARM gave favorable conditions to a startup which aimed to compete in a field where ARM is weak (servers). Now the biggest customer of the strongest revenue-market of ARM (mobile devices) has acquired that startup to repurpose their development and license to use in mobile devices, PCs, automotive, VR,...
- okasaki 4y ago
  I don't get it. Maybe they should have taken into account the possibility of a purchase when drawing up the contract?
  - rickdeckard 4y ago
    Don't know what's there not to get, the text I quoted states this explicitly: "The licenses safeguarded Arm’s rights and expectations by prohibiting assignment without Arm’s consent, regardless of whether a contemplated assignee had its own Arm licenses." ARM claims that they gave Nuvia a license with the condition to develop server-architecture, Qualcomm assumes that (the total sum of) their licenses allows them to use the architecture for whatever they want. ARM disagrees.
- cwizou 4y ago
  Thanks for posting the link, some extra tidbits I saw : - Feb 22, arm announced to Qualcomm that Nuvia's ALA/TLA licenses would be terminated in March 1st 22 (for the reasons from parent post) - On April 1st, arm counsel acknowledged the termination of the licenses and that Nuvia was in compliance (aka destroyed the designs under the license they had obtained, which is in the ALA contract) - On multiple occasions afterwards Qualcomm asked arm to validate "new core designs" to be used on upcoming products (!) - Qualcomm PR/CEO kept talking about upcoming product based on Nuvia's work, while the license was effectively revoked, and was planning to sample such chips It will be interesting to see Qualcomm's counterclaims, but arm's factual presentation seems pretty clear and doesn't paint Qualcomm under a very flattering light. Arm's complaint all in all looks pretty reasonable (again, we only have one side of the story, but there's some pretty obvious bad faith from Qualcomm here).
kmeisthax 4y ago
So... does Qualcomm have an architectural license, or one that only covers pre-designed cores? If they don't have the special ARM license that lets you design your own compatible cores, then this case seems like a slam dunk for ARM. However, if they do have that license, then the only objections I can see are either... - Nuvia's license should terminate so that ARM can renegotiate with Qualcomm for whatever fields of endeavor aren't covered by Qualcomm's existing agreement - ARM does not believe architectural licensees should be able to transfer technology amongst one another The former seems reasonable, but Qualcomm already pays a lot of money for licenses in ARM's major markets already. I'm not sure what more they could justify here. The latter would be absolutely insane and toxic to the overall ARM ecosystem.
- ksec 4y ago
  >Qualcomm have an architectural license? Clearly stated in the case they do. But having a license doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want with it.
  - kmeisthax 4y ago
    Right, but I'm struggling to see why ARM would care. Legally speaking the license can say whatever the hell it wants and the courts will just execute it. If ARM specifically wants to silo off architectural licensees from one another then so be it. But... ARM negotiated the cost of their licenses based on the markets the chips would be sold into, with Qualcomm presumably paying a significant premium over Nuvia based on phones being a more established market. There's nothing here that prohibits Qualcomm from building a new chip using exactly the same team they bought, because they already paid buckets of cash for the privilege[0]. The only thing ARM can reasonably enforce is that they do it from scratch, and doing so requires they go and sue their own customers so they can use discovery as their compliance tool. And suing over something that trivial seems... petty? Like, I could see chip design houses looking to RISC-V or something else if ARM gets a reputation for suing on every M&A. [0] For the record, this is exactly the same thing Apple did. They bought a chip design firm and a CPU core design firm and had them build ARM cores and SoCs.
markhahn 4y ago
Those who can't compete in the market, compete in the courtroom. ARM has had something of a secure niche until recently - markets that Intel ignored or did poorly in. But now there is renewed competition from x86, attractive alternatives (and perhaps even momentum) behind RISC-V, still MIPS buzzing around. And anyone who is serious enough can engineer their own ARM-compatible chips without licensing entire cores from ARM. So this really puts some focus on ARM having to produce a steady stream of superior products. Can they? I guess the thing with NVidia was a major distraction...
hajile 4y ago
I guess ARM really does want to push RISC-V forward. Qualcomm dominates the high-end, high-margin ARM chip market (the part that uses ARM designs). They also invested a bunch into SiFive and the SiFive CEO is from Qualcomm. By pushing for the entire Nuvia design to be thrown out, ARM is aiming for the 1.5B acquisition jugular. I'm sure that there's at least idle talk about what to do if ARM wins or demands huge royalties in a settlement. Porting their design to RISC-V means keeping most of their work. It means they have a better negotiation position with ARM moving forward for other designs. It also increases their negotiation position with SiFive in the future (maybe even giving them enough positioning for an acquisition). The market is already shifting toward RISC-V with MediaTek (largest Android low-end chip maker) creating a wholly-owned corp that is doing RISC-V designs. The JVM port is now mainlined and Alibaba has made a ton of progress with their Android port. China and India are both pushing hard for RISC-V too. Meanwhile, RISC-V is moving hard into the embedded space where it's simplicity translates into a lot fewer gates while not paying 1-3% to ARM means either increased profits or more competitive pricing. Qualcomm announcing a RISC-V version of Nuvia could be a disastrous opening of the floodgates for ARM. TL;DR -- What a great time for ARM to prove to the world how switching to an open ISA would eliminate a lot of these bureaucratic issues.
- markhahn 4y ago
  it sounds more like ARM wants to quash any leakage, and keep fingers in every possible ARM-arch pie. that's pretty much the opposite of wanting to promote RISC-V...
  - hajile 4y ago
    I'm talking about unintended consequences. They are threatening their largest partner with billions in losses and even if Qualcomm were to win, it would still cost a fortune to play out in the courts. They are exemplifying why "copyleft" hardware specs are better and companies notice. If ARM isn't materially better than RISC-V, why not switch and eliminate the problem? It's about as tone deaf as when they created that RISC-V attack site a few years ago. If this induces companies to switch, even winning the case would be a pyrrhic victory.
tibbydudeza 4y ago
ARM clearly wants to end their market dominance with this kind of move - nothing prevents a good chip design team to switch to a new processor architecture and produces something great. See folks moving from PowerPC - AMD Zen , Dec Alpha -> AMD Zen/Intel Core , PowerPC -> Apple SOC
- snvzz 4y ago
  >PowerPC -> Apple SOC These same folks from P.A.Semi / PWRficcient then Apple / M1, moved on to a RISC-V startup, Rivos. That's gonna be interesting.

81 points by retskrad 4y ago

Octoth0rpe 4y ago
Did you perhaps misread the title? This is _arm_ suing, not Apple. I can't think of anything in particular Apple has done to kill competition in the SoC space, other than _maybe_ buying up large amounts of fab capacity, which is pretty forgivable.
- ZiiS 4y ago
  Releasing chips that are years ahead of the competitors significantly reduces competition.
  - selykg 4y ago
    Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but are you saying they should hold back their own chips so as to make it fair for the competition?
    - zer0zzz 4y ago
      Perhaps he’s implying that apple is pulling the strings and arm is doing this because of some pressure from apple? Outside that I can’t imagine how this comment makes any sense.
      - selykg 4y ago
        lol, I'm just confused. One of the reason's Apple has such a big lead, according to all the discussion I've seen here on HackerNews is that it's because Apple is on a newer chip process (5nm) whereas everyone is behind, and that if the competition was on a better process the differences wouldn't be as stark. The reason Apple is using a better process is they are investing so heavily in TSMC so that the process can be improved, and for that investment they get sort of a "dibs" on production, which, honestly seems fair. It's not like Apple sees TSMC as a charity here and I don't think anyone could argue otherwise. Also, as is probably obvious with Apple using these chips in iPhones, iPads, Apple TV, Watches, and now Macs (A series, M series, etc) they might be one of the largest single customers of TSMC and to even be able to produce enough of those chips they need to buy production well in advance. I don't know, people can claim unfair advantage all they want but looking at it from a business standpoint Apple is moving things forward.
        smoldesu 4y ago
        Where do we draw the line for unfair advantage, then? Apple is already the single largest company in the world. What would it take for you to admit they're abusing their market position?
        2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
        The first Apple designed chip to see production was the A4 released all the way back in 2010. So it would have been in design stages some years before that. I find it hard to believe industry insiders didn't have some inkling what Apple was trying to pull some vertical integration move during all that. All the normies would have been given ideas by the A7, the first 64 bit design. I think that's when the iPhone benchmarks really started pulling well ahead. It's not like Apple didn't telegraph their move almost a decade in advance. I'm not sure what you're suggesting.
        selykg 4y ago
        > What would it take for you to admit they're abusing their market position? More than someone simply claiming it. Loudly proclaiming it in a comment isn't showing your work. This is like math class, show me the work. How are they abusing their market position?
        rdsnsca 4y ago
        Proof
        amitkjain 4y ago
        Apple already filed lawsuit of Nuvia but could not stop Qualcomm from making Windows on ARm latop chips which is their biggest worry.
        scarface74 4y ago
        They are abusing their market position by investing billions in TSMC so they can make better chips? It’s not like Android is backed by a tiny startup. But more to the point, what does an article about ARM suing Qualcomm have to do with Apple?
      - amitkjain 4y ago
        You got it right.Apple is scared of Windows on ARM laptops. ARM would benefit if Qualcomm makes ARM chips for laptops. Apple would have threatened to move to RISC V if ARM allows Qualcomm to continue with Nuvia.
  - vocram 4y ago
    Releasing chips behind the competition has the same effect
  - bogwog 4y ago
    Remember that sarcasm doesn't work on the internet. You need to be explicit about it, such as by adding a "/s" at the end.
  - ZiiS 4y ago
    Sorry I missed the "/s". I was just trying to sympathize with any engineer being asked to compete with the m1.

Arm is seeking an injunction that would require Qualcomm to destroy designs developed under Nuvia’s license agreements with Arm. Arm alleged its approval was needed before these could be transferred to Qualcomm. This makes no sense at all. I'm trying to figure out the upside for ARM other than they earn more money on their cores. It would certainly put a large damper on the rock star chip designers since they couldn't sell their firms as easily.

dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
Suing your customers is never a good strategy (see the music industry). The logic really doesn't make sense. If you try to use a design made by someone else with an architecture licence and you have an architecture licence, ARM has to approve it? I guess they're trying to protect themselves as the sole seller of ARM designs, but even then Qualcomm didn't buy a design, they bought the company. ARM seems to be going overboard here. And all while RISC-V is nipping at their heels. It's like they want to make it really clear how troublesome licencing proprietary arches is.
- salawat 4y ago
  No... This is contracts 101, and furthermore, how fabs want to manage IP. If you want ARM, you play by ARM's rules. Or you don't get to use the license. Either ARM is about to learn a valuable lesson about knowledge wanting to be free, or Qualcomm is the about to get beaten with the lawsuit bat. I think it's ludicrous we even bother with this daftness, but seeing as everything has to revolve around money, it is what it is.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
    It's not really contracts 101, it's a question of what's in the contract that ARM is relying on. They're basically saying you can't transfer any IP without their permission. Who would agree to those terms, if creating IP is your business, and how could Qualcomm miss that if it was clearly stated in the contract? I just can't see Qualcomm's lawyers flubbing this one. They are an extremely aggressive company when it comes to IP and the law. It's not like they don't have top notch IP lawyers. If ARM persists in this stupidity my money is on Qualcomm tearing them a new one.

cwizou 4y ago

Found a tiny bit more information on arm's press site : https://www.arm.com/company/news/2022/08/arm-files-lawsuit-against-qualcomm-and-nuvia-for-breach-of-license-agreements-and-trademark-infringement https://www.arm.com/company/news/2022/08/arm-files-lawsuit-a... > Because Qualcomm attempted to transfer Nuvia licenses without Arm’s consent, which is a standard restriction under Arm’s license agreements, Nuvia’s licenses terminated in March 2022. Before and after that date, Arm made multiple good faith efforts to seek a resolution. If I understand this correctly, arm's licences have an approval process in case of acquisitions for license transfer (which is pretty common), and Qualcomm thought that because they had their own (probably a lot broader) set of arm licenses, they didn't need to seek their approval (or more likely, didn't want to pay some extra transfer cost ?) ? I can see Qualcomm's argument from a layman's point of view, arm claims that something designed by licensee A can't be transferred to licensee B without their approval, which seems a bit broad of a reach but contracts are weird I guess ? There's no doubt Nuvia's contracts was less favorable to whatever set of licenses Qualcomm operates with arm (relative company sizes and all). Reuters article goes on about Qualcomm eventually ditching arm's Cortex designs and replacing them by Nuvia's being what this is about. That seems a bit of a stretch, and would be a large pivot in how arm used to operate with its licensees that would send a chilling effect if true. So I'd be quite surprised if that was the case, considering arm is not under new management. I'm not saying there can't be tensions or bruised execs egos on both sides about this, but this seems a bit of a radical step to suspend Nuvia's license and ask that all their design IP be destroyed.

prasadjoglekar 4y ago
Assignment of terms of a contract upon acquisition being subject to approval by asignor is a pretty standard contract clause.
- dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
  But how does Qualcomm need Nuvia's license when it has its own? And having the designs destroyed because of this wrinkle seems pretty rich. The licence was valid when the designs were created, but now they're not because the design (not the licence) was transferred to someone else?

VMtest 4y ago

adrian_b 4y ago

Arm's filed complaint: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/22273195/arm-v-qualcomm-99-9999-stamped-complaint.pdf https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/22273195/arm-v-qualco... I find it interesting that Arm Ltd. has demanded a trial by jury. I would have thought that as a risk in a case which depends on interpreting correctly the wording of a business contract.

korginator 4y ago

A related article [1] says that (a) ARM granted licenses to Nuvia with terms that disallowed any transfer to Qualcomm, but (b) the licenses were transferred to a newly formed entity and not to Qualcomm. Wouldn't the outcome of the case depend on the judge's interpretation of the contracts then? I can't imagine Qualcomm with their attack-dog lawyers missing something like this. [1] https://www.tomshardware.com/news/arm-sues-qualcomm-and-nuvia-for-breaking-license-agreement https://www.tomshardware.com/news/arm-sues-qualcomm-and-nuvi...

rickdeckard 4y ago
I can't imagine that a contract between Nuvia and ARM namedropped Qualcomm instead of simply stating that a transfer of license and work under that license requires consent of ARM.

ycdrhtscb 4y ago

TLDR ARM want to force Qualcomm to continue buying their crppy designed cpus and Qualcomm would prefer to use a better custom designed architecture from nuvia.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

rickdeckard 4y ago

The court-filing describes ARM's position quite well: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/22273195/arm-v-qualcomm-99-9999-stamped-complaint.pdf https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/22273195/arm-v-qualco... My nutshell: 1. ARM gave a broad range of licenses to Nuvia to develop an ARM-based architecture for use in servers, with a license-fee to match this objective (probably a favorable one, because it's a field ARM aims to expand): "Nuvia’s licensing fees and royalty rates reflected the anticipated scope and nature of Nuvia’s use of the Arm architecture. The licenses safeguarded Arm’s rights and expectations by prohibiting assignment without Arm’s consent, regardless of whether a contemplated assignee had its own Arm licenses." 2. Qualcomm acquires Nuvia with the intention to use the developed IP for (quote): "powering flagship smartphones, next-generation laptops, and digital cockpits, as well as Advanced Driver Assistance Systems, extended reality and infrastructure networking solutions" Sounds quite reasonable if the claim is validated: ARM gave favorable conditions to a startup which aimed to compete in a field where ARM is weak (servers). Now the biggest customer of the strongest revenue-market of ARM (mobile devices) has acquired that startup to repurpose their development and license to use in mobile devices, PCs, automotive, VR,...

okasaki 4y ago
I don't get it. Maybe they should have taken into account the possibility of a purchase when drawing up the contract?
- rickdeckard 4y ago
  Don't know what's there not to get, the text I quoted states this explicitly: "The licenses safeguarded Arm’s rights and expectations by prohibiting assignment without Arm’s consent, regardless of whether a contemplated assignee had its own Arm licenses." ARM claims that they gave Nuvia a license with the condition to develop server-architecture, Qualcomm assumes that (the total sum of) their licenses allows them to use the architecture for whatever they want. ARM disagrees.
cwizou 4y ago
Thanks for posting the link, some extra tidbits I saw : - Feb 22, arm announced to Qualcomm that Nuvia's ALA/TLA licenses would be terminated in March 1st 22 (for the reasons from parent post) - On April 1st, arm counsel acknowledged the termination of the licenses and that Nuvia was in compliance (aka destroyed the designs under the license they had obtained, which is in the ALA contract) - On multiple occasions afterwards Qualcomm asked arm to validate "new core designs" to be used on upcoming products (!) - Qualcomm PR/CEO kept talking about upcoming product based on Nuvia's work, while the license was effectively revoked, and was planning to sample such chips It will be interesting to see Qualcomm's counterclaims, but arm's factual presentation seems pretty clear and doesn't paint Qualcomm under a very flattering light. Arm's complaint all in all looks pretty reasonable (again, we only have one side of the story, but there's some pretty obvious bad faith from Qualcomm here).

kmeisthax 4y ago

So... does Qualcomm have an architectural license, or one that only covers pre-designed cores? If they don't have the special ARM license that lets you design your own compatible cores, then this case seems like a slam dunk for ARM. However, if they do have that license, then the only objections I can see are either... - Nuvia's license should terminate so that ARM can renegotiate with Qualcomm for whatever fields of endeavor aren't covered by Qualcomm's existing agreement - ARM does not believe architectural licensees should be able to transfer technology amongst one another The former seems reasonable, but Qualcomm already pays a lot of money for licenses in ARM's major markets already. I'm not sure what more they could justify here. The latter would be absolutely insane and toxic to the overall ARM ecosystem.

ksec 4y ago
>Qualcomm have an architectural license? Clearly stated in the case they do. But having a license doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want with it.
- kmeisthax 4y ago
  Right, but I'm struggling to see why ARM would care. Legally speaking the license can say whatever the hell it wants and the courts will just execute it. If ARM specifically wants to silo off architectural licensees from one another then so be it. But... ARM negotiated the cost of their licenses based on the markets the chips would be sold into, with Qualcomm presumably paying a significant premium over Nuvia based on phones being a more established market. There's nothing here that prohibits Qualcomm from building a new chip using exactly the same team they bought, because they already paid buckets of cash for the privilege[0]. The only thing ARM can reasonably enforce is that they do it from scratch, and doing so requires they go and sue their own customers so they can use discovery as their compliance tool. And suing over something that trivial seems... petty? Like, I could see chip design houses looking to RISC-V or something else if ARM gets a reputation for suing on every M&A. [0] For the record, this is exactly the same thing Apple did. They bought a chip design firm and a CPU core design firm and had them build ARM cores and SoCs.

markhahn 4y ago

Those who can't compete in the market, compete in the courtroom. ARM has had something of a secure niche until recently - markets that Intel ignored or did poorly in. But now there is renewed competition from x86, attractive alternatives (and perhaps even momentum) behind RISC-V, still MIPS buzzing around. And anyone who is serious enough can engineer their own ARM-compatible chips without licensing entire cores from ARM. So this really puts some focus on ARM having to produce a steady stream of superior products. Can they? I guess the thing with NVidia was a major distraction...

hajile 4y ago

I guess ARM really does want to push RISC-V forward. Qualcomm dominates the high-end, high-margin ARM chip market (the part that uses ARM designs). They also invested a bunch into SiFive and the SiFive CEO is from Qualcomm. By pushing for the entire Nuvia design to be thrown out, ARM is aiming for the 1.5B acquisition jugular. I'm sure that there's at least idle talk about what to do if ARM wins or demands huge royalties in a settlement. Porting their design to RISC-V means keeping most of their work. It means they have a better negotiation position with ARM moving forward for other designs. It also increases their negotiation position with SiFive in the future (maybe even giving them enough positioning for an acquisition). The market is already shifting toward RISC-V with MediaTek (largest Android low-end chip maker) creating a wholly-owned corp that is doing RISC-V designs. The JVM port is now mainlined and Alibaba has made a ton of progress with their Android port. China and India are both pushing hard for RISC-V too. Meanwhile, RISC-V is moving hard into the embedded space where it's simplicity translates into a lot fewer gates while not paying 1-3% to ARM means either increased profits or more competitive pricing. Qualcomm announcing a RISC-V version of Nuvia could be a disastrous opening of the floodgates for ARM. TL;DR -- What a great time for ARM to prove to the world how switching to an open ISA would eliminate a lot of these bureaucratic issues.

markhahn 4y ago
it sounds more like ARM wants to quash any leakage, and keep fingers in every possible ARM-arch pie. that's pretty much the opposite of wanting to promote RISC-V...
- hajile 4y ago
  I'm talking about unintended consequences. They are threatening their largest partner with billions in losses and even if Qualcomm were to win, it would still cost a fortune to play out in the courts. They are exemplifying why "copyleft" hardware specs are better and companies notice. If ARM isn't materially better than RISC-V, why not switch and eliminate the problem? It's about as tone deaf as when they created that RISC-V attack site a few years ago. If this induces companies to switch, even winning the case would be a pyrrhic victory.

tibbydudeza 4y ago

ARM clearly wants to end their market dominance with this kind of move - nothing prevents a good chip design team to switch to a new processor architecture and produces something great. See folks moving from PowerPC - AMD Zen , Dec Alpha -> AMD Zen/Intel Core , PowerPC -> Apple SOC

snvzz 4y ago
>PowerPC -> Apple SOC These same folks from P.A.Semi / PWRficcient then Apple / M1, moved on to a RISC-V startup, Rivos. That's gonna be interesting.