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“In her statement, Koren also singled out “Jewglers,” a forum for Jewish Google employees, for not accommodating Jews who hold anti-Zionist views.” Zionism is

“In her statement, Koren also singled out “Jewglers,” a forum for Jewish Google employees, for not accommodating Jews who hold anti-Zionist views.” Zionism is the belief that Israel has the right to exist, and that Jews have the right to live in Israel. If you are against this, your views are quite extremist and it is hard to find understanding and accommodation, particularly among fellow Jews.

m_eiman 4y ago
To quote Wikipedia: "Advocates of Zionism view it as a national liberation movement for the repatriation of a persecuted people to its ancestral homeland. Anti-Zionists view it as a colonialist, racist or exceptionalist ideology or movement."
lostlogin 4y ago
The wiki on Zionism says this toward the end: “Anti-Zionists view it as a colonialist, racist or exceptionalist ideology or movement.” Characterising the groups views as believing Israel should not exist seems disingenuous. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
guelo 4y ago
Zionism is an anti-democratic, explicitly racist belief that only Jews should have governing power over all land west of the jordan river.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- cb504 4y ago
  Don't the Palestinians think the same thing, that only Palestinians should have governing power over all land west of the jordan river?
  - smcl 4y ago
    I'm sure many want the land that their families lost long ago when Israel was established and plenty of Palestinians are enraged enough by the ongoing human rights abuses that they suffer that they'll curse the Israeli state. Some will even say some pretty radical shit about it, probably similar to what Ukrainians might say of the invading Russians, or even what some Irish said of the Brits back during their independence struggle. However if you were to right now offer the people of Palestine a guaranteed peace with a two-state solution based on the Oslo accords they would overwhelmingly vote to accept it. I don't think you could say the same of anyone who describes themselves as a Zionist. Though I don't know how widespread that belief is among the Israeli population, it's entirely likely a similar majority in Israel would be satisfied with such a solution.
- hackerlight 4y ago
  Is there an *ist word like racist that refers to supremacy of a religious group instead of a race?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- LegitShady 4y ago
  How many jews are allowed in palestine, vs how many arabs in israel? Who is more racist is clear to see by the actual actions taken. Jews can't live in arab areas, while ~20% of israel is arab. The racists are plain to see. Arab ethno-nationalism is somehow not part of the conversation, just 'anti zionism', while the arabs keep the jews out by violence.
MiguelX413 4y ago
There are plenty of anti-zionists, even Jewish anti-zionists.
kajecounterhack 4y ago
> If you are against this, your views are quite extremist and it is hard to find understanding and accommodation, particularly among fellow Jews. It's a bit more complicated than this. Israel militarily occupies Palestine. And they institute an apartheid system that is unfair to Palestinians, denying basic rights to Palestinians -- they can take your property, they can restrict your travel, they can strangle your economy. And they do. You might say Israelis deserve to live life in peace, but shouldn't Palestinians as well? The state of Israel was carved out of Palestine, so can you blame the original inhabitants of the area that they feel something was taken (and still being takene) from them, and can you blame anyone from sympathizing with that perspective? You don't have to be anti-Zionist to at least empathize with the complexity of the situation & understand that the state of Israel has enacted some very problematic policies and conducted problematic actions. I don't think it's fair to just call it extremist by any means. There are also levels to everything. Some folks are unhappy with the Israeli state as it exists today, but by saying they're anti-zionist & "Israel shouldn't exist" they typically aren't advocating for murder, they're advocating for a one-state solution so that inhabitants of Palestine/Israel can get democratic representation & equal rights. Again, not a crazy take.
- abacadaba 4y ago
  Correct they're not advocating for murder, they're advocating for suicide.
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  > they're advocating for a one-state solution so that inhabitants of Palestine/Israel can get democratic representation & equal rights. Again, not a crazy take. This is in fact a crazy take. It’s not quite advocating a shared state for Nazis and Jews level of crazy but it’s certainly getting there. Palestinian nationalism is based on being anti-Israel in much the same way anti-colonial or anti-metropolitan nationalism is. See Catalan, Scottish, Irish or Welsh nationalism. Palestinian nationalism is much more like Irish nationalism than any of the rest of those in that people have killed for it in large numbers. When people say something really stupid you have the choice of believing they’re lying or stupid. One staters are some of one and some of the other.
hnbad 4y ago
> Zionism is the belief that Israel has the right to exist, and that Jews have the right to live in Israel. Zionism is about the right of Israel to exist as an explicitly Jewish nation state. Being anti-Zionist does not mean you believe Israel should cease to exist, unless you define Isreal only in terms of ethnicity and religion. > If you are against this, your views are quite extremist and it is hard to find understanding and accommodation, particularly among fellow Jews. That's a fairly recent development in the grand scheme of things. Prior to the formation of Israel, Zionism was frequently contrasted with Bundism. The Bundist idea was that the "Jewish nation" is inherently a nation without borders and that Jews should organize internationally wherever they are. Bundists still exist but when Israel was created a lot of Jews adopted a more Zionist stance as the existence of Israel pretty much forced their hand in the debate. There are still many good arguments against Zionism even now that Israel exists, especially from the point of view that just because Israel wants to be a "home country" for (certain) Jews, many Jews already have a home country elsewhere and identifying Israel as their home country only plays into the hands of antisemites arguing they're "foreigners" who don't belong in the country they were born into. In fact, many white nationalists in the West use Zionism as a talking point to support their demand for white ethnostates: if Jews can have Israel for Jews, why can't "ethnic Germans" have Germany for "ethnic Germans", etc. The arguments of course get increasingly incoherent with places like the US where pinning down an "original white ethnic identity" requires a fair bit of mythologizing. Arguably, Israel as a "Jewish state" is a late project of 19th century European nationalism, which largely fell out of fashion after WW2 with the increasing globalization of trade and industry and the softening of national borders through common trade areas and projects like the European Union. The perceived necessity for a "Jewish home country" was accelerated by the Holocaust (and the refusal of Allied countries to take on Jewish refugees until it was too late) but the "Jewish consensus" of universal support for Zionism is more manufactured than authentic and Israel has become as divisive as it has become unifying (e.g through the disregard towards Yiddish as a Jewish language, racism towards non-white Jews, prominent individuals like Netanyahu engaging in Hitler apologism, etc) even if you don't consider issues pertaining Palestinian Arabs. EDIT: Since most people are likely unfamiliar with the term, here's the Wikipedia article on Bundism:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundism Although primarily a historical movement pre-dating the formation of modern Israel, Bundist movements still exist in many countries today and tend to be especially popular with Jewish socialists (who tend to be critical of Israel which they often perceive as an imperialist and colonialist project).
krageon 4y ago
> If you are against this, your views are [...] You do not get to tell other people what their views are. In the first place, questioning what has in practice meant "buy some tanks and go oppress the natives" is not something spoken of positively for literally any other country doing it. But when it is Israel, pointing out that humans have (and should have) rights somehow means that you hate all Jews. Ridiculous. Rather it is the reverse: Understanding Jews and their historical circumstances should give you a renewed respect for human rights and how important they are.
- nailer 4y ago
  > You do not get to tell other people what their views are. They are judging people's views, not telling them what to think. It's fine to believe what you want about other people's views. You do not control other people's minds.
metta2uall 4y ago
When "Zionism" only means that Jews have a right to live in those lands, that's fine because Jews are indeed one of the "indigenous" inhabitants of them. When "Zionism" also means that Jews can create a "Jewish State" that discriminates against non-Jewish indigenous inhabitants (e.g. through a racist "law of return") - this is a big problem. That land must be shared..

m_eiman 4y ago

To quote Wikipedia: "Advocates of Zionism view it as a national liberation movement for the repatriation of a persecuted people to its ancestral homeland. Anti-Zionists view it as a colonialist, racist or exceptionalist ideology or movement."

lostlogin 4y ago

The wiki on Zionism says this toward the end: “Anti-Zionists view it as a colonialist, racist or exceptionalist ideology or movement.” Characterising the groups views as believing Israel should not exist seems disingenuous. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

guelo 4y ago

Zionism is an anti-democratic, explicitly racist belief that only Jews should have governing power over all land west of the jordan river.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
cb504 4y ago
Don't the Palestinians think the same thing, that only Palestinians should have governing power over all land west of the jordan river?
- smcl 4y ago
  I'm sure many want the land that their families lost long ago when Israel was established and plenty of Palestinians are enraged enough by the ongoing human rights abuses that they suffer that they'll curse the Israeli state. Some will even say some pretty radical shit about it, probably similar to what Ukrainians might say of the invading Russians, or even what some Irish said of the Brits back during their independence struggle. However if you were to right now offer the people of Palestine a guaranteed peace with a two-state solution based on the Oslo accords they would overwhelmingly vote to accept it. I don't think you could say the same of anyone who describes themselves as a Zionist. Though I don't know how widespread that belief is among the Israeli population, it's entirely likely a similar majority in Israel would be satisfied with such a solution.
hackerlight 4y ago
Is there an *ist word like racist that refers to supremacy of a religious group instead of a race?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
LegitShady 4y ago
How many jews are allowed in palestine, vs how many arabs in israel? Who is more racist is clear to see by the actual actions taken. Jews can't live in arab areas, while ~20% of israel is arab. The racists are plain to see. Arab ethno-nationalism is somehow not part of the conversation, just 'anti zionism', while the arabs keep the jews out by violence.

MiguelX413 4y ago

There are plenty of anti-zionists, even Jewish anti-zionists.

kajecounterhack 4y ago

> If you are against this, your views are quite extremist and it is hard to find understanding and accommodation, particularly among fellow Jews. It's a bit more complicated than this. Israel militarily occupies Palestine. And they institute an apartheid system that is unfair to Palestinians, denying basic rights to Palestinians -- they can take your property, they can restrict your travel, they can strangle your economy. And they do. You might say Israelis deserve to live life in peace, but shouldn't Palestinians as well? The state of Israel was carved out of Palestine, so can you blame the original inhabitants of the area that they feel something was taken (and still being takene) from them, and can you blame anyone from sympathizing with that perspective? You don't have to be anti-Zionist to at least empathize with the complexity of the situation & understand that the state of Israel has enacted some very problematic policies and conducted problematic actions. I don't think it's fair to just call it extremist by any means. There are also levels to everything. Some folks are unhappy with the Israeli state as it exists today, but by saying they're anti-zionist & "Israel shouldn't exist" they typically aren't advocating for murder, they're advocating for a one-state solution so that inhabitants of Palestine/Israel can get democratic representation & equal rights. Again, not a crazy take.

abacadaba 4y ago
Correct they're not advocating for murder, they're advocating for suicide.
barry-cotter 4y ago
> they're advocating for a one-state solution so that inhabitants of Palestine/Israel can get democratic representation & equal rights. Again, not a crazy take. This is in fact a crazy take. It’s not quite advocating a shared state for Nazis and Jews level of crazy but it’s certainly getting there. Palestinian nationalism is based on being anti-Israel in much the same way anti-colonial or anti-metropolitan nationalism is. See Catalan, Scottish, Irish or Welsh nationalism. Palestinian nationalism is much more like Irish nationalism than any of the rest of those in that people have killed for it in large numbers. When people say something really stupid you have the choice of believing they’re lying or stupid. One staters are some of one and some of the other.

hnbad 4y ago

> Zionism is the belief that Israel has the right to exist, and that Jews have the right to live in Israel. Zionism is about the right of Israel to exist as an explicitly Jewish nation state. Being anti-Zionist does not mean you believe Israel should cease to exist, unless you define Isreal only in terms of ethnicity and religion. > If you are against this, your views are quite extremist and it is hard to find understanding and accommodation, particularly among fellow Jews. That's a fairly recent development in the grand scheme of things. Prior to the formation of Israel, Zionism was frequently contrasted with Bundism. The Bundist idea was that the "Jewish nation" is inherently a nation without borders and that Jews should organize internationally wherever they are. Bundists still exist but when Israel was created a lot of Jews adopted a more Zionist stance as the existence of Israel pretty much forced their hand in the debate. There are still many good arguments against Zionism even now that Israel exists, especially from the point of view that just because Israel wants to be a "home country" for (certain) Jews, many Jews already have a home country elsewhere and identifying Israel as their home country only plays into the hands of antisemites arguing they're "foreigners" who don't belong in the country they were born into. In fact, many white nationalists in the West use Zionism as a talking point to support their demand for white ethnostates: if Jews can have Israel for Jews, why can't "ethnic Germans" have Germany for "ethnic Germans", etc. The arguments of course get increasingly incoherent with places like the US where pinning down an "original white ethnic identity" requires a fair bit of mythologizing. Arguably, Israel as a "Jewish state" is a late project of 19th century European nationalism, which largely fell out of fashion after WW2 with the increasing globalization of trade and industry and the softening of national borders through common trade areas and projects like the European Union. The perceived necessity for a "Jewish home country" was accelerated by the Holocaust (and the refusal of Allied countries to take on Jewish refugees until it was too late) but the "Jewish consensus" of universal support for Zionism is more manufactured than authentic and Israel has become as divisive as it has become unifying (e.g through the disregard towards Yiddish as a Jewish language, racism towards non-white Jews, prominent individuals like Netanyahu engaging in Hitler apologism, etc) even if you don't consider issues pertaining Palestinian Arabs. EDIT: Since most people are likely unfamiliar with the term, here's the Wikipedia article on Bundism:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundism Although primarily a historical movement pre-dating the formation of modern Israel, Bundist movements still exist in many countries today and tend to be especially popular with Jewish socialists (who tend to be critical of Israel which they often perceive as an imperialist and colonialist project).

krageon 4y ago

> If you are against this, your views are [...] You do not get to tell other people what their views are. In the first place, questioning what has in practice meant "buy some tanks and go oppress the natives" is not something spoken of positively for literally any other country doing it. But when it is Israel, pointing out that humans have (and should have) rights somehow means that you hate all Jews. Ridiculous. Rather it is the reverse: Understanding Jews and their historical circumstances should give you a renewed respect for human rights and how important they are.

nailer 4y ago
> You do not get to tell other people what their views are. They are judging people's views, not telling them what to think. It's fine to believe what you want about other people's views. You do not control other people's minds.

metta2uall 4y ago

When "Zionism" only means that Jews have a right to live in those lands, that's fine because Jews are indeed one of the "indigenous" inhabitants of them. When "Zionism" also means that Jews can create a "Jewish State" that discriminates against non-Jewish indigenous inhabitants (e.g. through a racist "law of return") - this is a big problem. That land must be shared..