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Undeclared pools in France uncovered by AI technology
- jhoelzel 4y agoThis is redicolous. At some point we have admit as a civilisation we have failed, when there are drones or sattelites taking fotos of our back yards -all the time- just do idenfiy those 10 people in a neigbourhood that have "saved" 300 bucks a year. I mean sure its France where they think a little different about privacy, but you can make sure that once the quality is good enough, someone will put your naked butt on the internet, because they found them while doing "routine work"- And no, neither google earth or bing or apple have detailed enough picture quality to identify anything. on purpose. That will not however be true for the drone your local gov uses. Im not trying to create a state of naked people either, but the point still stand that if you need this tech to find a couple of pools, you might as well put cameras everywhere.
- melkael 4y ago> And no, neither google earth or bing or apple have detailed enough picture quality to identify anything. Google is involved in the project. This almost certainly uses google earth’s data
- consp 4y agoIn most countries dodging taxes is a crime, not a civil fine, which shifts the privacy aspect a bit, though I agree it's a bit over the top.
- jhoelzel 4y agoIts not about them identifying potential sources of income, its how they do it. I have absolutely no problem with a guy in a plane pointing at pools and taking notes and knocking on peoples doors. What I do have a problem with is unnecessary surveillance of the innocent.
- Mordisquitos 4y agoWhat if the image processing is only allowing them to detect potential undeclared pools, and they only issue the corresponding fine once it has been confirmed by a guy in a plane (or at ground level) who has been sent to double-check?
- dna_polymerase 4y agoOh please. If they have to do it they should go the satellite image way, way less pollution, less noise and at least a chance to get everyone not just a bunch of random unlucky people.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago> What I do have a problem with is unnecessary surveillance of the innocent. so in your opinion police patrolling the streets are an "unnecessary surveillance of the innocent"? because disclosed pools are already known to the State. Technically is not surveillance if they already know that you have a pool and they actually find a pool there (what a surprise!)
- jhoelzel 4y ago> so in your opinion police patrolling the streets are an "unnecessary surveillance of the innocent"? The street is a public place, but my yard is not. Furthermore the police does not check in once every X hours with me personally, but yes if they would, i would consider that an annoiance =)
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago> The street is a public place, but my yard is not. your yard is not yours. it's at your disposal. the soil your yard is built on is a State property. If they have probable cause, they can enter and check whatever they want to. They can also look at it from outside, without your permission. > Furthermore the police does not check in once every X hours with me personally this is a once in a lifetime check
- InCityDreams 4y ago
- jimjambw 4y agoThe real worry is those that operate it will think that France is in England.
- jhoelzel 4y agothanks for pointing it out, I corrected it =) As a german when I hear about bad privacy my first thought is always of the UK ;)
- tokai 4y agoThat's rich taking into consideration how involved Germany is in internet surveillance.
- jhoelzel 4y agointernet surveillance is one thing and yes we are involved but still less than the united states or other actors. However there still is a reasonable expectency of privacy in the real world here.
- nicbou 4y agoAh then the perspective makes more sense. German privacy is something different. However it tends to be individual privacy. A grainy picture of a pool processed without judgement by an algorithm feels a lot like panorama rights to me. The software sees the same thing I can see on Google Maps.
- overtonwhy 4y agoIn Greece it was nearly 17,000 pools undeclared https://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html https://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.ht...
- jhoelzel 4y agoWhich still could have been easily identified by a plane ride too
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago> Which still could have been easily I believe your definition of easy is a bit faulty.
- peoplefromibiza 4y agoThey're doing the same thing in Italy. Yes, there are aerial photos since the 50s, no, it's not possible for humans to scan all of them, not in a life time. > 10 people in a neigbourhood that have "saved" 300 bucks a year. That's not the point. The points are: - social justice, if I pay you have to pay. If you don't pay taxes to IRS what happens? I bet they use a lot more than AI to find people who eludes them... - undisclosed pools (and other undisclosed properties) are a proxy for other illegal activities. For example in Italy villas of sentenced criminals are usually hidden. This way the State could find them and confiscate them. Anyway in Italy they have already discovered more than 20 thousand undisclosed pools. And the job is not done yet. EDIT: I work in an insurance company, we use similar techniques to identify buildings in satellite images and compare them to same pictures after a flood or a fire, to estimate damages. It could be done by human eyes, It would take years. This way clients are reimbursed swiftly and can start rebuilding what has been damaged.
- harha 4y agoProbably will get downvoted but I don’t think paying taxes leads to more social justice. There are some exceptions where government actions are closer to the people they represent, but in general I have the impression that most governments are like an ever growing intransparent entity that serves primarily itself. Edit: typos
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago> Probably will get downvoted but I don’t think paying taxes leads to more social justice I completely disagree (many rich people think the same way you do, this is not a novel argument, it is as old as taxes themselves), but the point was not on taxes, but on justice. Meaning that if you pay a tax because - like it or not - you have to pay for it, I should pay it too, if we are in the same situation. That's what I meant for "social justice", the obligation towards the community to fulfill your duties the same way other members of the community do.
- harha 4y ago
- relix 4y agoThat's a ridiculous argumentation. This infrastructure was not built or maintained "just do idenfiy those 10 people in a neigbourhood that have "saved" 300 bucks a year". It exists for lots of different, likely more useful use cases, and this is just another added usecase that can utilise already existing infrastructure for no added cost. Your statement is comparable to calling it ridiculous that we have roads "just so an ice cream truck can sell ice cones to neighbourhood kids during the summer". That's obviously not the main use case for roads.
- mellavora 4y ago> And no, neither google earth or bing or apple have detailed enough picture quality to identify anything. We have a (small, legal) pool. One year we bought that inflatable green alligator pool toy which was so popular -- one of these https://the-hollywood-gossip-res.cloudinary.com/iu/s--WNibF2m_--/t_xlarge_l/cs_srgb,f_auto,fl_strip_profile.lossy,q_auto:420/v1560809963/attachment/gator-pool-float.jpg https://the-hollywood-gossip-res.cloudinary.com/iu/s--WNibF2... There was a time you could see our pool alligator on google earth.
- jhoelzel 4y agoI agree and even google noticed it has become a problem and thus reduced the quality for public facing images. Here in germany you can even have your house blurred out on google maps if you submit a request.
- flakeoil 4y agoYou don't need very detailed imagery to spot a swimming pool. The Google earth type images are enough. It can also be used to spot building extensions etc. And it also gives a hint on other cheating and crime, for example if the household is on benefits, pays no tax and all of a sudden a pool pops up in the garden. It might still be legit, but at least an investigation can be done. Sure it might be seen a bit over the top, but what are the alternatives? If people do not declare when it is taxable, then things might need to be enforced. Sure these taxes could be removed, but at the same time it might be fair to tax people who can afford building a pool. Probably better than increasing tax on work.
- vegardx 4y agoYou can easily see pools on Google Earth. This is the sort of claim that literally takes seconds to refute in any city.
- curiousgal 4y ago> They have amassed some €10m (£8.5m) in revenue, French media is reporting. Knowing Capgemini, they have probably charged them €15m for a very subpar solution.
- GordonS 4y agoOh, the last article about this said it was Cognizant, not Capgemini - I've had the misfortune to work at both, and either way, you're right.
- turing_complete 4y agoGreat that we got those evil, undeclared pools. This is the AI use case I've been waiting for!
- throwaway290 4y agoIt looks like there are two sides: people who want to buy a house and want it to cost a sane amount of money, and people who own a house and want it to increase in price. The latter would obviously ridicule this.
- fastball 4y agoTo me the problem is more the assumption that a pool automatically increases the value of a property. Or rather that increasing the value of a property should increase your tax burden. Insert sales pitch for Land Value Tax here.
- Mordisquitos 4y agoThey call it "AI", but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they've just run some basic pattern recognition on their stock of aerial GIS imagery, searching for blueish rectangles on land tagged as residential. It's probably the sort of thing that could have also been done 20 years ago or even more.
- GordonS 4y agoI used to work for Cognizant - they are very good at using the latest hype words to bag a client, so I fully agree with you. The same story from a different source was posted a couple of days back, and I said the same, simple pattern recognition can do this just fine.
- fastball 4y agoGoogle was involved so it was probably just humans solving reCAPTCHAs identifying the pools...
- kierenj 4y ago
- jonplackett 4y agoIt’s weird the tone of the article, like this is a wonderful thing! Well done AI! Now what’s next for it to spy on?
- XorNot 4y agoIt's tax evasion. They are literally stealing your tax dollars.
- Nextgrid 4y agoPoliticians and big corporations steal or waste tax dollars every day and nobody bats an eye.
- MagnumOpus 4y agoI bat an eye. If you as a voter re-elect wasteful or corrupt politicians, or as a shareholder/owner re-elect wasteful or corrupt corporate boards, then you can't be surprised at the outcome.
- nicbou 4y agoYes, plenty do. Whataboutism is not a strong argument. Tax evasion massively erodes people's trust in institutions. If it's prevalent enough, cheating becomes the default option, and things fall apart quickly.
- Nextgrid 4y agoYes, but when the big guys' cheating is worth millions all while costs of living are going up and income inequality is rising, I really can't blame the commoner cheating for a few hundred bucks. I don't mind it becoming the default option - at least it'll put everyone on a level playing field.
- nicbou 4y agoWe can work on multiple problems at once
- verisimi 4y agoAnd I thought this was going to be about AI finding some sort of illicit dark pools in finance, indicating some sort of shady business. Lol. Those types of pools aren't the ones AI is being tasked to find of course. Why would AI even try to uncover the nefarious activities of its owners? Anyway, here's to another governmental (planning, tax department) success! Hurrah!
- Fiahil 4y ago> The tax authorities say the software could eventually be used to find undeclared home extensions, patios or gazebos, which also play a part in property taxes. Well, let's not be over optimistic. The PM in charge of the project on the taxe administration side is probably happy that his project is going well. However, different branches of the state are already doing that with tree line and tree coverage change for farmers subsidies. That project is not going well because of the large amount of false positives. Trying to spot undeclared house extension will very likely follow the same path because the problem is infinitely more difficult, the data ("cadastre") is messy and Capgemini is absolutely not capable of handling that complexity by lack of skills and experience.
- Closi 4y agoI'm not convinced it's that difficult. It would be pretty easy to just detect new extensions by looking at historical satellite images, and then manually check if they had approval.
- bryanrasmussen 4y agook but if the tax authorities in France are anything like the tax authorities in other countries they will levy the taxes and it's up to you to prove a false positive while the fines etc. rack up.
- InCityDreams 4y agoHeat would also show undeclared extensions etc.
- hexo 4y agoBrutal GDPR lawsuit in 3,2,1...
- InCityDreams 4y ago...under which part of the gdpr?
- d--b 4y agoI can’t think they’re after people who don’t declare their pools. They’re after people who build swimming pools on land where it’s illegal to build them, making the value of their land much higher than it is worth. In france there are tons of places where it’s illegal to build pools, but if no one notices for 10 years, you’re officially off the hook, so a lot of people try their luck. The firemen too like to have swimming pools around in dry areas as water reserves. So even if someone finds out about your pool, you may still get away with a fine. It’s all a bit weird
- nottorp 4y agoI wonder. Do you need "AI" to find rectangular blue-ish areas in photos?
- hutzlibu 4y agoOf course? How else would you do it? Iterate through the pixels and check for certain blue values? And maybe a small greyish border area? How is that fancy enough? (I remember helping ecology students with beginners programming, which was what they did, only that they had to check for green)
- nottorp 4y agoAgreed. No way you can charge 10 million for that.
- nraynaud 4y agoTo bring some context, temporary above ground pools are exempted, I don’t know if the software makes the distinction, but the global system software + tax people has to make it.
- choko 4y agoMaybe if there weren't taxes on so many things and the system were more reasonable, easier to navigate, and easier to understand, people would be more compliant. It's annoying that government in most western countries insists on involvement in so many aspects of daily life. This is meant as a general comment, not specific to France.