6 ms·

SmartDry’s useful laundry sensor to be cloud-bricked next month

61 points by mmastrac 4y ago

smegsicle 4y ago
> cloud-bricked that seems like a catchy term
amelius 4y ago
We should ban tethering of physical products by the vendor.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  It's much easier to simply avoid buying devices that require someone else's server in order to work.
  - MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
    Easy for now but less so each passing day. See recent developments with passenger vehicles.
    - JohnFen 4y ago
      That's why I don't buy new cars.
      - LadyCailin 4y ago
        How long do you think that will continue to work for you? It’s inevitable. Better to fight for the necessary regulation now.
        UncleEntity 4y ago
        Until they ban all the old cars? There’s not really anything that can happen to an older car, aside from a major accident or rust, that can “brick” it. Every part is replaceable and reasonably available for the common ones. I’m probably going to need to own a car again in the not too distant future and more than likely will just try to find a ‘70s VW to get up and running. Though…I do still technically own a ‘74 VW Bus my dad was using for a gate the last time I saw it around 20 years ago, wonder if he still has that thing?
        JohnFen 4y ago
        Well, if they ban old cars then I won't have a car.
        throwaway0a5e 4y ago
        > Until they ban all the old cars? HN is never short on comments advocating for specific policies that would sum up to that effect, so yes.
        JohnFen 4y ago
        I see no reason to think this won't continue to work for the rest of my life. There are a lot of old, used cars out there. But I'm totally with you on fighting for the necessary regulation! In the meantime, I need to do the needful to protect myself.
- maxerickson 4y ago
  This one is just dependent on the cloud, it isn't quite tethered. The actual sensor splats out BLE messages that any device can decode.
- drstewart 4y ago
  We should ban people saying "we should ban X" as if it's a simple solution to any problem.
- karaterobot 4y ago
  I don't think the market always efficiently sorts out every dumb technology fad, but I have a moderate level of confidence that people will stop buying cloud-dependent physical products after being burned enough times by stuff like this. Or, maybe they just realize it's not all that useful in the first place. Alternatively, the products could get much better, and doubters like me will have to stop complaining and jump on board. We'll see about that. But, I don't think a law would improve the situation. More likely it would just backfire in some unexpected way, as such well-intentioned laws often do.
  - JadeNB 4y ago
    > I don't think the market always efficiently sorts out every dumb technology fad, but I have a moderate level of confidence that people will stop buying cloud-dependent physical products after being burned enough times by stuff like this. Or, maybe they just realize it's not all that useful in the first place. Individual people probably will, but the market will keep supplying new people who haven't yet been burnt and are willing to fall for the same old scam.
nathanvanfleet 4y ago
This is pretty common, I bought a really nice looking scale that was machined aluminum and had no screen from Community Thrift. It was $5 but only when I got home did I realize it was some app-first company that had closed. So it was a brick. I've also seen things like Lighthouse (?) that was a really nice IP security cam with the same fate. IMO the coolest thing would be if these companies would open-source their code when they went out of business. But in all likelihood that is probably a legal issue. Companies don't just go out of business, they sell IP to something and ultimately some other company probably ends up owning it all and they probably don't want to share anything.
- voisin 4y ago
  If the governments of the world can force companies as large as Apple to move to USB-C to reduce e-waste, it doesn’t seem unreasonable that they could demand open sourcing of software as part of a company’s wind-down.
  - selcuka 4y ago
    You can't force someone to open up their intellectual property. The company might have wound down but the IP still belongs to someone.
    - voisin 4y ago
      Easy: legislate an implied obligation for ongoing support of past sales for a reasonable period of time and as part of wind down that obligation is a liability that must be discharged with posted credit of some sort (or the purchaser would have to take this liability on) or via open sourcing the software.
      - selcuka 4y ago
        Fair point. That's called a warranty, and they should have been legally required to support their product until the end of warranty period. Posting a notice on their website in June and shutting down the servers in September is a jerk move. My point still stands though. They can't force them to open up their trade secrets.
alistairSH 4y ago
I’m not sure I understand… the sensor detects the clothes are dry, sends the owner a message, and the owner has to walk downstairs and turn it off? Or message them the appliance is overheating due to blocked lint trap? Why not just have it turn the machine off without intervention? This is what my last X dryers have done and generally done a decent job at it (for dryness, not for lint trap blockage). The key has been not overloading the appliance with too many heavy items and keeping the lint screen clear, both of which should just be habit for anybody who does laundry.
- denkmoon 4y ago
  This is presumably for people that don't have such a choice. I'd have a decent dryer if I didn't rent, but I do and such things are typically included, and consequently are the cheapest money can buy. To do this I'd need to integrate the dryer sensor with a smart plug.
  - hedora 4y ago
    The cheapest dryers (electric and gas) Home Depot carries around here have moisture sensors: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Hotpoint-6-2-cu-ft-White-Electric-Vented-Dryer-with-Auto-Dry-HTX24EASKWS/207188948 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Hotpoint-6-2-cu-ft-White-Electri... https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-7-2-cu-ft-White-Gas-Vented-Dryer-GTD33GASKWW/206824725 https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-7-2-cu-ft-White-Gas-Vented-Dr... I thought they were required by law these days.
    - denkmoon 4y ago
      Should have specified I'm not US :) https://www.binglee.com.au/products/inalto-ivde45w-4-5kg-vented-dryer https://www.binglee.com.au/products/inalto-ivde45w-4-5kg-ven... This is a functional equivalent of what I've had in multiple rental properties in Australia. It has "Hot", "Hotter", and an egg timer.
    - squeaky-clean 4y ago
      This assumes the units in my building aren't 15 years old ;)
kylehotchkiss 4y ago
This type of device seems perfect for HomeKit... but some company decided to DIY the tech so they could find a way to eventually monetize. What an unfortunate waste.
- phoronixrly 4y ago
  The issue is not with DIY-ing it. It's with locking it down with their mothership.
  - michaelt 4y ago
    I suspect there's no easy solution to this. As a power user, of course I prefer to connect to devices directly rather than through a sketchy cloud service. But we've also got to acknowledge that the networked security cameras of 15 years ago regularly ended up making their videos public to anyone with a web browser - or becoming part of a DDOS botnet. So I can see why manufacturers aren't in a hurry to ask users to forward ports from their home firewalls any more.
  - maxerickson 4y ago
    The thing that goes in the dryer isn't locked down, it broadcasts some data to a smartplug that uploads it to the cloud. https://community.home-assistant.io/t/clothes-dryer-automations/149017/130 https://community.home-assistant.io/t/clothes-dryer-automati...
- FunnyBadger 4y ago
  HomeKit is no better. You are merely trading one dubious supplier for another. Both can lock you out, intentionally or by accident.
troyvit 4y ago
Wait I only have a clothes line. Is there a sensor for that? I'm afraid of blowing up the sun.
- wzwy 4y ago
  A sensor to detect clothings blown away by strong wind, maybe? It’s been ages since I had used a clothes line, so I don’t remember if that has ever been an issue.
  - samarthr1 4y ago
    That's why clips are a thing With good quality stuff, nothing ek have them fall down.
wzwy 4y ago
There should be a different lifetime attached to these cloud-based smart home devices. It's an implicit lifetime separate than the hardware: how long can the company last? And what's their frequency of plug-pulling? If it's not an established company, I would be wary buying anything from them. Even established companies tend to pull the plugs on cloud-based hardware, so caution also applies to them. My current guideline for purchasing: - How long will the company last? - How likely is it for the company to sunset a product? - Are there fallbacks in place in case of company closure or server shutdown? This should be supplied by the company, and not cobbled together by users after losing server connection.
- taneq 4y ago
  The biggest thing, I think, is that it needs to be clearly advertised on the packet (in a “batteries not included” style) that the device depends on XX service provided by YY company.
taneq 4y ago
I’m as mad as everyone else about unnecessary cloud integration and companies bricking useful hardware but that description seems a REAL stretch here. > In other words, SmartDry will become a tiny brick inside your dryer unless you're willing to procure a little ESP32 development board, load some code onto it, plug it in near your dryer, and set up your own alerts in your Home Assistant server. Now I’ll admit there are cases that still count as “bricked” even if the device is recoverable with a Dremel and a JTAG debugger, but generally if you can fix it without specialist tools or software it’s not bricked. In this case it sounds like the device still works fine and you just need to provide a server for it to talk to.
- maxerickson 4y ago
  The "hub" is a 110 V smart plug that can shut off gas dryers, and the smart phone app doesn't work with other servers, so there is significant loss of functionality. The actual sensor isn't bricked at all. The functionality most people bought it for is going away.
torginus 4y ago
Why isn't there catch-all service for hosting lambda-like functionality for regular, like there are a billion offerings for cloud storage? For example, I'm 99% sure Azure blobs are the underpinnings of Onedrive, and I'm pretty sure using just blobs, you could implement most of the functionality with just blobs, including stuff like push notifications. They could offer a service where people could connect their smart devices to their Onedrive accounts, and it would set up a few service endpoints for their devices, and all hosting for these online features would be taken care of by the cloud provider. The load per user would be so low, it would generously fit into any 'free tier' these providers offer. The infra is there, people are already used to paying for cloud storage, why isn't this a thing already
helf 4y ago
This is why anything remotely “smart” that I own and use can be self managed. Relying on the “cloud” and longevity of companies is asking for years. I hate that crap.
Brian_K_White 4y ago
I'm just fascinated by how this term "cloud-bricked" is probably understood by everyone today, not techie people, everyone or rapidly approaching everyone, probably understands the essential properties and concept like any other basic vocabulary word, simply because this stuff has permeated all levels of everyday life like electricity has before that. The term, and this idea about how ordinary a concept like that is now, made me think just now that modern English up to about 1990 (widespread adoption of the internet) may eventually become a new Old English. There will be so many terms that have such different meanings and usage before and after a certain time, that they're almost different languages. And we're kind of in the middle of the transition in real time right now.
FunnyBadger 4y ago
This is one of the many reasons why I NEVER buy any type of HW that requires a cloud account to even function. There is no sales pitch or value proposition so good that it can overcome this downside of Cloud/IoT in practice. I was looking at a weather station recently that used some pretty innovative sensor hardware but then it only works with a cloud account. Literally if you want the data on your phone, you have connect the station to your internet connection, let it upload the data to the cloud, and then have your smartphone download it again. A thousand-mile trip for a 10 foot distance. F___ that noise! When you live in an area with spotty internet service, this is utterly Epic Fail. So it was an automatic no-go. No sale on that fine weather station. Hope you go broke!! Instead I'm building a system from scratch with professional grade components that use 4-20 mA wire links that I'm connecting to an RPi. The cost for the components is definitely higher but they are the same as what the NWS uses. And I can chose whether to upload or share any of the data. And I will have access to MY DATA for as long as everything powers up and operates. F___ companies that require cloud access to your own data F___ engineers who design such abortions
JoeAltmaier 4y ago
They got the use of it for however long, for whatever price. Was it worth it? Maybe. It's not a shocking surprise that a device has a limited lifetime. People who buy $1000 smartphones, just to buy another one two years later, are complaining about this? Just because something ends, doesn't mean it wasn't good while it lasted.

61 points by mmastrac 4y ago

smegsicle 4y ago

> cloud-bricked that seems like a catchy term

amelius 4y ago

We should ban tethering of physical products by the vendor.

JohnFen 4y ago
It's much easier to simply avoid buying devices that require someone else's server in order to work.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
  Easy for now but less so each passing day. See recent developments with passenger vehicles.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    That's why I don't buy new cars.
    - LadyCailin 4y ago
      How long do you think that will continue to work for you? It’s inevitable. Better to fight for the necessary regulation now.
      - UncleEntity 4y ago
        Until they ban all the old cars? There’s not really anything that can happen to an older car, aside from a major accident or rust, that can “brick” it. Every part is replaceable and reasonably available for the common ones. I’m probably going to need to own a car again in the not too distant future and more than likely will just try to find a ‘70s VW to get up and running. Though…I do still technically own a ‘74 VW Bus my dad was using for a gate the last time I saw it around 20 years ago, wonder if he still has that thing?
        JohnFen 4y ago
        Well, if they ban old cars then I won't have a car.
        throwaway0a5e 4y ago
        > Until they ban all the old cars? HN is never short on comments advocating for specific policies that would sum up to that effect, so yes.
      - JohnFen 4y ago
        I see no reason to think this won't continue to work for the rest of my life. There are a lot of old, used cars out there. But I'm totally with you on fighting for the necessary regulation! In the meantime, I need to do the needful to protect myself.
maxerickson 4y ago
This one is just dependent on the cloud, it isn't quite tethered. The actual sensor splats out BLE messages that any device can decode.
drstewart 4y ago
We should ban people saying "we should ban X" as if it's a simple solution to any problem.
karaterobot 4y ago
I don't think the market always efficiently sorts out every dumb technology fad, but I have a moderate level of confidence that people will stop buying cloud-dependent physical products after being burned enough times by stuff like this. Or, maybe they just realize it's not all that useful in the first place. Alternatively, the products could get much better, and doubters like me will have to stop complaining and jump on board. We'll see about that. But, I don't think a law would improve the situation. More likely it would just backfire in some unexpected way, as such well-intentioned laws often do.
- JadeNB 4y ago
  > I don't think the market always efficiently sorts out every dumb technology fad, but I have a moderate level of confidence that people will stop buying cloud-dependent physical products after being burned enough times by stuff like this. Or, maybe they just realize it's not all that useful in the first place. Individual people probably will, but the market will keep supplying new people who haven't yet been burnt and are willing to fall for the same old scam.

nathanvanfleet 4y ago

This is pretty common, I bought a really nice looking scale that was machined aluminum and had no screen from Community Thrift. It was $5 but only when I got home did I realize it was some app-first company that had closed. So it was a brick. I've also seen things like Lighthouse (?) that was a really nice IP security cam with the same fate. IMO the coolest thing would be if these companies would open-source their code when they went out of business. But in all likelihood that is probably a legal issue. Companies don't just go out of business, they sell IP to something and ultimately some other company probably ends up owning it all and they probably don't want to share anything.

voisin 4y ago
If the governments of the world can force companies as large as Apple to move to USB-C to reduce e-waste, it doesn’t seem unreasonable that they could demand open sourcing of software as part of a company’s wind-down.
- selcuka 4y ago
  You can't force someone to open up their intellectual property. The company might have wound down but the IP still belongs to someone.
  - voisin 4y ago
    Easy: legislate an implied obligation for ongoing support of past sales for a reasonable period of time and as part of wind down that obligation is a liability that must be discharged with posted credit of some sort (or the purchaser would have to take this liability on) or via open sourcing the software.
    - selcuka 4y ago
      Fair point. That's called a warranty, and they should have been legally required to support their product until the end of warranty period. Posting a notice on their website in June and shutting down the servers in September is a jerk move. My point still stands though. They can't force them to open up their trade secrets.

alistairSH 4y ago

I’m not sure I understand… the sensor detects the clothes are dry, sends the owner a message, and the owner has to walk downstairs and turn it off? Or message them the appliance is overheating due to blocked lint trap? Why not just have it turn the machine off without intervention? This is what my last X dryers have done and generally done a decent job at it (for dryness, not for lint trap blockage). The key has been not overloading the appliance with too many heavy items and keeping the lint screen clear, both of which should just be habit for anybody who does laundry.

denkmoon 4y ago
This is presumably for people that don't have such a choice. I'd have a decent dryer if I didn't rent, but I do and such things are typically included, and consequently are the cheapest money can buy. To do this I'd need to integrate the dryer sensor with a smart plug.
- hedora 4y ago
  The cheapest dryers (electric and gas) Home Depot carries around here have moisture sensors: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Hotpoint-6-2-cu-ft-White-Electric-Vented-Dryer-with-Auto-Dry-HTX24EASKWS/207188948 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Hotpoint-6-2-cu-ft-White-Electri... https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-7-2-cu-ft-White-Gas-Vented-Dryer-GTD33GASKWW/206824725 https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-7-2-cu-ft-White-Gas-Vented-Dr... I thought they were required by law these days.
  - denkmoon 4y ago
    Should have specified I'm not US :) https://www.binglee.com.au/products/inalto-ivde45w-4-5kg-vented-dryer https://www.binglee.com.au/products/inalto-ivde45w-4-5kg-ven... This is a functional equivalent of what I've had in multiple rental properties in Australia. It has "Hot", "Hotter", and an egg timer.
  - squeaky-clean 4y ago
    This assumes the units in my building aren't 15 years old ;)

kylehotchkiss 4y ago

This type of device seems perfect for HomeKit... but some company decided to DIY the tech so they could find a way to eventually monetize. What an unfortunate waste.

phoronixrly 4y ago
The issue is not with DIY-ing it. It's with locking it down with their mothership.
- michaelt 4y ago
  I suspect there's no easy solution to this. As a power user, of course I prefer to connect to devices directly rather than through a sketchy cloud service. But we've also got to acknowledge that the networked security cameras of 15 years ago regularly ended up making their videos public to anyone with a web browser - or becoming part of a DDOS botnet. So I can see why manufacturers aren't in a hurry to ask users to forward ports from their home firewalls any more.
- maxerickson 4y ago
  The thing that goes in the dryer isn't locked down, it broadcasts some data to a smartplug that uploads it to the cloud. https://community.home-assistant.io/t/clothes-dryer-automations/149017/130 https://community.home-assistant.io/t/clothes-dryer-automati...
FunnyBadger 4y ago
HomeKit is no better. You are merely trading one dubious supplier for another. Both can lock you out, intentionally or by accident.

troyvit 4y ago

Wait I only have a clothes line. Is there a sensor for that? I'm afraid of blowing up the sun.

wzwy 4y ago
A sensor to detect clothings blown away by strong wind, maybe? It’s been ages since I had used a clothes line, so I don’t remember if that has ever been an issue.
- samarthr1 4y ago
  That's why clips are a thing With good quality stuff, nothing ek have them fall down.

wzwy 4y ago

There should be a different lifetime attached to these cloud-based smart home devices. It's an implicit lifetime separate than the hardware: how long can the company last? And what's their frequency of plug-pulling? If it's not an established company, I would be wary buying anything from them. Even established companies tend to pull the plugs on cloud-based hardware, so caution also applies to them. My current guideline for purchasing: - How long will the company last? - How likely is it for the company to sunset a product? - Are there fallbacks in place in case of company closure or server shutdown? This should be supplied by the company, and not cobbled together by users after losing server connection.

taneq 4y ago
The biggest thing, I think, is that it needs to be clearly advertised on the packet (in a “batteries not included” style) that the device depends on XX service provided by YY company.

taneq 4y ago

I’m as mad as everyone else about unnecessary cloud integration and companies bricking useful hardware but that description seems a REAL stretch here. > In other words, SmartDry will become a tiny brick inside your dryer unless you're willing to procure a little ESP32 development board, load some code onto it, plug it in near your dryer, and set up your own alerts in your Home Assistant server. Now I’ll admit there are cases that still count as “bricked” even if the device is recoverable with a Dremel and a JTAG debugger, but generally if you can fix it without specialist tools or software it’s not bricked. In this case it sounds like the device still works fine and you just need to provide a server for it to talk to.

maxerickson 4y ago
The "hub" is a 110 V smart plug that can shut off gas dryers, and the smart phone app doesn't work with other servers, so there is significant loss of functionality. The actual sensor isn't bricked at all. The functionality most people bought it for is going away.

torginus 4y ago

Why isn't there catch-all service for hosting lambda-like functionality for regular, like there are a billion offerings for cloud storage? For example, I'm 99% sure Azure blobs are the underpinnings of Onedrive, and I'm pretty sure using just blobs, you could implement most of the functionality with just blobs, including stuff like push notifications. They could offer a service where people could connect their smart devices to their Onedrive accounts, and it would set up a few service endpoints for their devices, and all hosting for these online features would be taken care of by the cloud provider. The load per user would be so low, it would generously fit into any 'free tier' these providers offer. The infra is there, people are already used to paying for cloud storage, why isn't this a thing already

helf 4y ago

This is why anything remotely “smart” that I own and use can be self managed. Relying on the “cloud” and longevity of companies is asking for years. I hate that crap.

Brian_K_White 4y ago

I'm just fascinated by how this term "cloud-bricked" is probably understood by everyone today, not techie people, everyone or rapidly approaching everyone, probably understands the essential properties and concept like any other basic vocabulary word, simply because this stuff has permeated all levels of everyday life like electricity has before that. The term, and this idea about how ordinary a concept like that is now, made me think just now that modern English up to about 1990 (widespread adoption of the internet) may eventually become a new Old English. There will be so many terms that have such different meanings and usage before and after a certain time, that they're almost different languages. And we're kind of in the middle of the transition in real time right now.

FunnyBadger 4y ago

This is one of the many reasons why I NEVER buy any type of HW that requires a cloud account to even function. There is no sales pitch or value proposition so good that it can overcome this downside of Cloud/IoT in practice. I was looking at a weather station recently that used some pretty innovative sensor hardware but then it only works with a cloud account. Literally if you want the data on your phone, you have connect the station to your internet connection, let it upload the data to the cloud, and then have your smartphone download it again. A thousand-mile trip for a 10 foot distance. F___ that noise! When you live in an area with spotty internet service, this is utterly Epic Fail. So it was an automatic no-go. No sale on that fine weather station. Hope you go broke!! Instead I'm building a system from scratch with professional grade components that use 4-20 mA wire links that I'm connecting to an RPi. The cost for the components is definitely higher but they are the same as what the NWS uses. And I can chose whether to upload or share any of the data. And I will have access to MY DATA for as long as everything powers up and operates. F___ companies that require cloud access to your own data F___ engineers who design such abortions

JoeAltmaier 4y ago

They got the use of it for however long, for whatever price. Was it worth it? Maybe. It's not a shocking surprise that a device has a limited lifetime. People who buy $1000 smartphones, just to buy another one two years later, are complaining about this? Just because something ends, doesn't mean it wasn't good while it lasted.