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>much of this gas would have been used to feed into the pipeline grid and sold on to Europe. Because Russia has sharply cut supply to Europe... More of this Or

>much of this gas would have been used to feed into the pipeline grid and sold on to Europe. Because Russia has sharply cut supply to Europe... More of this Orwellian spin that Russia 'cut the supply'. The EU sanctioned Russia and cut off their access to the global banking system and to their foreign currency holdings. They also announced that they'd be stopping buying any Russian gas at all by 2023. So Russia demanded Europe pay for their gas in Roubles. Because why wouldn't they in those circumstances? Most of Europe refused to pay in Roubles so Russia [and again, why wouldn't they?] said "If you don't pay, you can't have the gas" The fact that this series of events is being constantly spun across multiple western media sources now as an arbitrary 'Russia turned off the taps' --in attempt to divert anyone from asking whether the west [and the EU in particular] has spectacularly shot itself in the foot here-- is disgraceful. And we have the gall to criticise countries like China for the dishonesty of their press!

brnt 4y ago
Does Russia have to invade Ukraine? Does it have to keep killing civilians? They could put an end to this today, but they won't, because the loss of face is worse than the loss of life.
- eshch 4y ago
  The last sentence is applicable to both sides by the way. Especially because of https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrai... But both sides are hostages of their own politics and narratives of who's good and who's bad.
  - kadoban 4y ago
    Russia is the aggressor, and appeasement is a generally unsuccessful strategy.
    - eshch 4y ago
      It depends on the purposes of the actor and the purpose of the strategy.
  - brnt 4y ago
    The Amnesty report doesn't change my question though: Russian leadership could end this right now by returning its armies home.
    - eshch 4y ago
      Well, I was not going to change your question. Why would I? I'm just going to draw attention to the situation both sides "could put an end to this today, but they won't, because the loss of face is worse than the loss of life."
    - rdtwo 4y ago
      Not really. The only way this ends is if Europe and Russia cooperate to sell gas. Both parties have to agree. The actual war is related but not directly needed to end the energy problem. Even if Russia surrendered there would still need to be cooperation to resume gas sales
      - paulryanrogers 4y ago
        This seems to be a technically. If Russia withdraws from Ukraine tonight then tomorrow Europe would be far more like to take significant steps to get the gas and payment flowing.
        rdtwo 4y ago
        More likely maybe but there are probably technical hurdles now too. Embargo’s don’t always get lifted. Russia would be forced to pay reputations, and parts aren’t available or repair so can’t be used immediately. It would take months or years to unwind this.
        paulryanrogers 4y ago
        Doubly down on the war is unlikely to produce a better outcome, for anyone.
        4y ago
- impossiblefork 4y ago
  Yes, but that doesn't change who is cutting off whom. Russia invaded Ukraine and diverse countries who did not understand the significance of their choice to make themselves dependent on Russian gas had to take what peaceful measures they could to deny resources to Russia, but obviously the Rusdians aren't going to sell something in return for something they can't access-- it's equivalent to nonpayment. There's no readon not to say that openly. The only bad thing about this affair is that some countries are trying to substitute their Russian gas for Azerbaijani gas, which is just as bad war-of-aggression wise , even though that is of course further away from Europe.
  - Normille 4y ago
    >The only bad thing about this affair is that some countries are trying to substitute their Russian gas for Azerbaijani gas, which is just as bad war-of-aggression wise , even though that is of course further away from Europe. Yes. It's funny how moral outrage fades with distance, isn't it? And also with "Are they friends of ours or not?" I've not noticed any calls to boycott Saudi Arabian oil in response to that country's Bombing and killing of civilians in Yemen. It's incredible how otherwise intelligent people, switch off their critical faculties and revert to "baddies vs goodies" levels of analysis, when it comes to international politics.
    - impossiblefork 4y ago
      It's not really a matter of morality though. We care about Ukraine because we don't want Russian domination in eastern Europe-- it's simply a matter of security. Obviously security must go first, but if we can afford it morality is often good long-term.
      - Normille 4y ago
        What about NATO domination in Europe? Why can so many of you not see [beyond simplistic 'goodies' and 'baddies' labels] how much Russia feels threatened by that? Imagine if the cold war had been 'won' by the other side; Canada and Mexico had joined the Warsaw Pact and the USSR had troops and ICBMs stationed there. And now Alaska, which had declared independence from the rest of the USA was talking about doing likewise [0] How do you think the US would react? Clue: look up 'Cuban Missile Crisis' if you need a hint. One of the fundamental pre-requisites for solving crises diplomatically before the shooting starts is seeing things from the other guy's point of view. Simply dismissing 'them' as the 'baddies' and discounting their view of the world only leads to more conflict --as has happened in Ukraine. [0] Baggsy a share of the royalties, if someone decides to write this up as an Alternative History blockbuster!
- ohiovr 4y ago
  Reality is millions of people could freeze to death that probably couldn't find Ukraine on a map 10 months ago. Since the only view you get from is the one behind the electronic curtain it isn't surprising you are so misled. The green party in Germany laughed at the suggestion by Trump that Europe is too dependent on Russian gas.
- Normille 4y ago
  >Does Russia have to invade Ukraine? Does it have to keep killing civilians? You're changing the argument. I'm not arguing whether Russia was morally right or wrong to invade Ukraine. I'm arguing that Europe [in particular] was incredibly short-sighted to choose to respond by effectively forcing Russia to cut off our gas supplies in the run up to winter.
eshch 4y ago
Well, it's democracy at stake. Doesn't it justify everything? Because if not, this example is not the biggest issue. Anyway, a bit of hypocrisy doesn't hurt.
- opensores 4y ago
  Would a democracy be practicing a genocide on its people for eight years and counting ? Would a democracy promote right wing extremism, much less arm them with heavy weaponry (eg 155mm shells and artillery)? Would a democracy embed such people and war criminals into its own military? To shoot its very own troops if they dared retreat from a suicidal order? Would a democracy shell a nuclear waste repository for days on end when this threatens a good portion of Europe with decades long lasting effects and a loss of major breadbasket region areas for agricultural production over these decades. Tell me, what sort of democracy is this? Would a democracy murder its own citizens and stage propaganda psyops to deceive the remainder of its population? Would a democracy condone a project such as the below mentioned, and even be directly collaborate with its founder and members: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrotvorets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrotvorets https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Myrotvorets&action=history https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Myrotvorets&actio... Chechen proverb (allegedly) "A man is not the one who knows how to fight, but the one who knows exactly who his enemy is". As far as I can tell, to get back a democracy you need to do away with a junta first.
dzhiurgis 4y ago
Sanctions are against Russia, Gazprom is “private” company…
scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago
This is a straw man argument. Everyone, “western media” included is fully aware that not buying the gas is about cutting off the money for financing the war. No one is “spinning” a story around Russia arbitrarily cutting off supplies - we know it’s neither technical issues nor rouble payments that are the root cause here. It’s a literal unprovoked and premeditated war that someone is using to retain their firm grip on power. We’re not buying the gas because we don’t want it. We might be “shooting ourselves in the foot” economically/industrially, but that is the price that must be paid if Europe is to be worth living in.
- rdtwo 4y ago
  | We’re not buying the gas because we don’t want it. | Yep that’s exactly what’s happening.
- ghostwriter 4y ago
  > but that is the price that must be paid if Europe is to be worth living in. Could you clarify, is it going to be worth living in because, by buying Qatar's LNG, it will help Qatar to fund Jabhat al-Nusra in waging a war in Syria? [1] [2] [1] https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/qatar-funnelled-millions-of-dollars-to-nusra-front-terrorists-in-syria-x5rnbsr3l https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/qatar-funnelled-millions-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#Qatari_involvement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#Qatari_involvem...
  - scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago
    You are being downvoted but I agree - us not wanting to finance that war does not mean all the other economic relationships are suddenly made “clean”. This however is also a case of a “whatabout” argument. Anything from recycling to humanitarian aid can be effectively shot down in a debate with it. Fact is - Ukraine is closer, and it has a more significant impact on the EU. There are Ukrainians in my neighborhood now. And their presence is confronting everyone in our society with the questions of whether we are willing to stand by our ideals. Whether we are willing to open up our homes, make our neighborhoods available, provide jobs etc. So far the answer has been yes, and I have found my country worth living in.
z_zetetic_z 4y ago
And where would they buy the roubles? And with what? However you cut it, buying gas from Russia means sending them EUR somehow. So the rouble thing is just a divertion from the real issue, which is people dying in Ukraine.
- ghostwriter 4y ago
  People aren't dying on the territories controlled by Russia, unless there are shellings and saboteurs from Ukraine [1] [2] [3], and Zelensky doesn't seem to be interested in peace negotiations unless it's on his terms, which means the war can be propagated back into the territories that have already began to recover. Does it actually serve interests of common folks who could care less about their flag of the day? [1] https://www.youtube.com/c/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%83%D0%... [2] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqcmvyHrmrmIC7nM1sA3_Uw/videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqcmvyHrmrmIC7nM1sA3_Uw/vid... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMtEJAgFT2M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMtEJAgFT2M
AnonymousPlanet 4y ago
Russia is throttling the throughput although there are no sanctions for gas and all contracts with the German side are still in place. Russia's behaviour is as if you had announced to cancel your internet contract next year and they suddenly throttle your internet this year to spite you. You're the one putting a spin on things and I wonder why.
ohiovr 4y ago
It's childish to down vote this.

brnt 4y ago

Does Russia have to invade Ukraine? Does it have to keep killing civilians? They could put an end to this today, but they won't, because the loss of face is worse than the loss of life.

eshch 4y ago
The last sentence is applicable to both sides by the way. Especially because of https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrai... But both sides are hostages of their own politics and narratives of who's good and who's bad.
- kadoban 4y ago
  Russia is the aggressor, and appeasement is a generally unsuccessful strategy.
  - eshch 4y ago
    It depends on the purposes of the actor and the purpose of the strategy.
- brnt 4y ago
  The Amnesty report doesn't change my question though: Russian leadership could end this right now by returning its armies home.
  - eshch 4y ago
    Well, I was not going to change your question. Why would I? I'm just going to draw attention to the situation both sides "could put an end to this today, but they won't, because the loss of face is worse than the loss of life."
  - rdtwo 4y ago
    Not really. The only way this ends is if Europe and Russia cooperate to sell gas. Both parties have to agree. The actual war is related but not directly needed to end the energy problem. Even if Russia surrendered there would still need to be cooperation to resume gas sales
    - paulryanrogers 4y ago
      This seems to be a technically. If Russia withdraws from Ukraine tonight then tomorrow Europe would be far more like to take significant steps to get the gas and payment flowing.
      - rdtwo 4y ago
        More likely maybe but there are probably technical hurdles now too. Embargo’s don’t always get lifted. Russia would be forced to pay reputations, and parts aren’t available or repair so can’t be used immediately. It would take months or years to unwind this.
        paulryanrogers 4y ago
        Doubly down on the war is unlikely to produce a better outcome, for anyone.
        4y ago
impossiblefork 4y ago
Yes, but that doesn't change who is cutting off whom. Russia invaded Ukraine and diverse countries who did not understand the significance of their choice to make themselves dependent on Russian gas had to take what peaceful measures they could to deny resources to Russia, but obviously the Rusdians aren't going to sell something in return for something they can't access-- it's equivalent to nonpayment. There's no readon not to say that openly. The only bad thing about this affair is that some countries are trying to substitute their Russian gas for Azerbaijani gas, which is just as bad war-of-aggression wise , even though that is of course further away from Europe.
- Normille 4y ago
  >The only bad thing about this affair is that some countries are trying to substitute their Russian gas for Azerbaijani gas, which is just as bad war-of-aggression wise , even though that is of course further away from Europe. Yes. It's funny how moral outrage fades with distance, isn't it? And also with "Are they friends of ours or not?" I've not noticed any calls to boycott Saudi Arabian oil in response to that country's Bombing and killing of civilians in Yemen. It's incredible how otherwise intelligent people, switch off their critical faculties and revert to "baddies vs goodies" levels of analysis, when it comes to international politics.
  - impossiblefork 4y ago
    It's not really a matter of morality though. We care about Ukraine because we don't want Russian domination in eastern Europe-- it's simply a matter of security. Obviously security must go first, but if we can afford it morality is often good long-term.
    - Normille 4y ago
      What about NATO domination in Europe? Why can so many of you not see [beyond simplistic 'goodies' and 'baddies' labels] how much Russia feels threatened by that? Imagine if the cold war had been 'won' by the other side; Canada and Mexico had joined the Warsaw Pact and the USSR had troops and ICBMs stationed there. And now Alaska, which had declared independence from the rest of the USA was talking about doing likewise [0] How do you think the US would react? Clue: look up 'Cuban Missile Crisis' if you need a hint. One of the fundamental pre-requisites for solving crises diplomatically before the shooting starts is seeing things from the other guy's point of view. Simply dismissing 'them' as the 'baddies' and discounting their view of the world only leads to more conflict --as has happened in Ukraine. [0] Baggsy a share of the royalties, if someone decides to write this up as an Alternative History blockbuster!
ohiovr 4y ago
Reality is millions of people could freeze to death that probably couldn't find Ukraine on a map 10 months ago. Since the only view you get from is the one behind the electronic curtain it isn't surprising you are so misled. The green party in Germany laughed at the suggestion by Trump that Europe is too dependent on Russian gas.
Normille 4y ago
>Does Russia have to invade Ukraine? Does it have to keep killing civilians? You're changing the argument. I'm not arguing whether Russia was morally right or wrong to invade Ukraine. I'm arguing that Europe [in particular] was incredibly short-sighted to choose to respond by effectively forcing Russia to cut off our gas supplies in the run up to winter.

eshch 4y ago

Well, it's democracy at stake. Doesn't it justify everything? Because if not, this example is not the biggest issue. Anyway, a bit of hypocrisy doesn't hurt.

opensores 4y ago
Would a democracy be practicing a genocide on its people for eight years and counting ? Would a democracy promote right wing extremism, much less arm them with heavy weaponry (eg 155mm shells and artillery)? Would a democracy embed such people and war criminals into its own military? To shoot its very own troops if they dared retreat from a suicidal order? Would a democracy shell a nuclear waste repository for days on end when this threatens a good portion of Europe with decades long lasting effects and a loss of major breadbasket region areas for agricultural production over these decades. Tell me, what sort of democracy is this? Would a democracy murder its own citizens and stage propaganda psyops to deceive the remainder of its population? Would a democracy condone a project such as the below mentioned, and even be directly collaborate with its founder and members: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrotvorets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrotvorets https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Myrotvorets&action=history https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Myrotvorets&actio... Chechen proverb (allegedly) "A man is not the one who knows how to fight, but the one who knows exactly who his enemy is". As far as I can tell, to get back a democracy you need to do away with a junta first.

dzhiurgis 4y ago

Sanctions are against Russia, Gazprom is “private” company…

scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago

This is a straw man argument. Everyone, “western media” included is fully aware that not buying the gas is about cutting off the money for financing the war. No one is “spinning” a story around Russia arbitrarily cutting off supplies - we know it’s neither technical issues nor rouble payments that are the root cause here. It’s a literal unprovoked and premeditated war that someone is using to retain their firm grip on power. We’re not buying the gas because we don’t want it. We might be “shooting ourselves in the foot” economically/industrially, but that is the price that must be paid if Europe is to be worth living in.

rdtwo 4y ago
| We’re not buying the gas because we don’t want it. | Yep that’s exactly what’s happening.
ghostwriter 4y ago
> but that is the price that must be paid if Europe is to be worth living in. Could you clarify, is it going to be worth living in because, by buying Qatar's LNG, it will help Qatar to fund Jabhat al-Nusra in waging a war in Syria? [1] [2] [1] https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/qatar-funnelled-millions-of-dollars-to-nusra-front-terrorists-in-syria-x5rnbsr3l https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/qatar-funnelled-millions-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#Qatari_involvement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#Qatari_involvem...
- scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago
  You are being downvoted but I agree - us not wanting to finance that war does not mean all the other economic relationships are suddenly made “clean”. This however is also a case of a “whatabout” argument. Anything from recycling to humanitarian aid can be effectively shot down in a debate with it. Fact is - Ukraine is closer, and it has a more significant impact on the EU. There are Ukrainians in my neighborhood now. And their presence is confronting everyone in our society with the questions of whether we are willing to stand by our ideals. Whether we are willing to open up our homes, make our neighborhoods available, provide jobs etc. So far the answer has been yes, and I have found my country worth living in.

z_zetetic_z 4y ago

And where would they buy the roubles? And with what? However you cut it, buying gas from Russia means sending them EUR somehow. So the rouble thing is just a divertion from the real issue, which is people dying in Ukraine.

ghostwriter 4y ago
People aren't dying on the territories controlled by Russia, unless there are shellings and saboteurs from Ukraine [1] [2] [3], and Zelensky doesn't seem to be interested in peace negotiations unless it's on his terms, which means the war can be propagated back into the territories that have already began to recover. Does it actually serve interests of common folks who could care less about their flag of the day? [1] https://www.youtube.com/c/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%83%D0%... [2] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqcmvyHrmrmIC7nM1sA3_Uw/videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqcmvyHrmrmIC7nM1sA3_Uw/vid... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMtEJAgFT2M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMtEJAgFT2M

AnonymousPlanet 4y ago

Russia is throttling the throughput although there are no sanctions for gas and all contracts with the German side are still in place. Russia's behaviour is as if you had announced to cancel your internet contract next year and they suddenly throttle your internet this year to spite you. You're the one putting a spin on things and I wonder why.

ohiovr 4y ago

It's childish to down vote this.