14 ms·
If this is in response to Kiwi Farms, I would say this is very disappointing. Love CloudFlare, think they are amazingly innovative, huge amount of respect for
by hammyhavoc 4y ago
If this is in response to Kiwi Farms, I would say this is very disappointing.
Love CloudFlare, think they are amazingly innovative, huge amount of respect for the people who work there.
I see where they're coming from, but I don't see how KF is defensible whilst 8chan et al aren't.
- mardifoufs 4y ago8chan had the whole mass shooter thing. Comparing the two websites is very hyperbolic.
- hammyhavoc 4y agoWhat did the neo-Nazi site have that the others didn't? "Nazis" isn't the answer because I can find Nazis on a lot of websites out in the open.
- CommitSyn 4y agoIf kiwifarms becomes the original public manifesto posting spot for national mediafest mass shooters, their views may change.
- driverdan 4y agoKF actively pushes people to commit suicide. People have died because of them.
- _-david-_ 4y agoSo does Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and every large platform. There is so much harassment, doxing, and other disturbing behavior on all the platforms.
- sealeck 4y agoThis is a remarkably facile comment; on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram you can find people who aren't out to drive trans people to commit suicide, and content which isn't about how to best call SWAT teams to people's homes. On KiwiFarms, that is all there is.
- throwrqX 4y ago
- sjsdaiuasgdia 4y agoThe forum whose members spend a lot of time harassing people has a book club thread! They can't be bad people if they spend some of their non-harassing time reading!
- throwrqX 4y agoThere's lots of people on Facebook who talk about abusing children. So what? If you want to say the majority or a substantial percentage of the forum members harass people then show some evidence for it.
- _-david-_ 4y agoI see plenty of posts on Kiwifarms that don't seem to be advocating for anything like that. Where exactly are all these posts? If the only thing on Kiwifarms are posts like this I should be able to easily see them.
- Borgz 4y agoAll of those platforms regularly remove that type of content and ban users that post it.
- _-david-_ 4y ago
- throw149102 4y agoFinding KiwiFarms posts that currently dox a user are going to be hard, because now that the site is under increased scrutiny from the public there is likely to be an attempt from moderators to remove posts. We can clearly find posts however that doxxing has been part of the sites history for years. For example, this post contains an address: https://kiwifarms.net/threads/onision-james-gregory-jackson-gregory-james-daniel-jackson-avaroe.4851/page-1007#post-5863885 https://kiwifarms.net/threads/onision-james-gregory-jackson-... Here is a post containing the IP of some user: https://kiwifarms.net/threads/leonard-f-shaner-jr.9940/page-79#post-783533 https://kiwifarms.net/threads/leonard-f-shaner-jr.9940/page-... Here is a list of past addresses for someone: https://kiwifarms.net/threads/russell-greer-just_some_dude_named_russell29-a-safer-nevada-pac.30488/page-1628#post-4980423 https://kiwifarms.net/threads/russell-greer-just_some_dude_n...
- _-david-_ 4y agoI don't know that IP addresses are doxing. Maybe, but doesn't seem like much for that. Past addresses isn't doxing. You have one example. I do appreciate the example. I don't really think 1 post is really systematic though. You could easily find an address on any of the big players. They appear to remove posts that get reported so it is possible this one wasn't reported.
- pseudalopex 4y agoTwitter and Meta have policies against doxing. Difficulty preventing it at much larger scale does not make them equivalent to Kiwi Farms.
- _-david-_ 4y agoI don't care if they have policies. They have a huge amount of posts directly advocating violence and doxing that don't get removed.
- pseudalopex 4y ago> Difficulty preventing it at much larger scale does not make them equivalent to Kiwi Farms.
- _-david-_ 4y agoKiwiFarms has a policy against illegal behavior. If your argument is that having a policy and half assing it is sufficient for Twitter then you should be consistent and allow KiwiFarms the same excuse. The size is irrelevant. If anything it should mean Twitter should be held to a higher standard due to the sheer reach of the platform. Twitter has significantly more resources to stop this behavior through both automated and manual processes. Stop justifying Twitter's complete and utter failure.
- Dylan16807 4y agoKiwiFarms doesn't half-ass, they ignore. They need to try before they can be excused for trying.
- _-david-_ 4y agoKiwiFarms has removed posts that were doxing people in the past. I am not sure how frequently they do it though, but since they do it sometimes 'half-assing' seems appropriate.
- 4y ago
- cyral 4y agoThe owners of those platforms don't actively encourage that content, and it makes up a small portion of the content rather than the main purpose
- _-david-_ 4y agoI'm not sure that it is the main purpose of KiwiFarms. There appears to be a large number of posts not related to any of that behavior. I don't use KiwiFarms so maybe I just don't know where all these doxing posts are? Also, due to the sheer size, Twitter and the others almost certainly have significantly more of these types of posts.
- ryneandal 4y agoAnd each of those platforms you've mentioned have explicit rules AGAINST harassment, doxxing, swatting, and other reprehensible behavior KF engages in. Sure, it may be posted, but lots of it is removed as soon as it is identified and/or reported.
- _-david-_ 4y agoKiwifarms has a policy against illegal behavior (which would include some harassment and swatting). I am not sure if doxing is illegal? Policies don't mean anything when a huge amount of it stays up and the platform does nothing about it. There are posts literally and explicitly calling for people to murder others on Twitter. The posts have been there for multiple years (at least the last time I checked). Twitter and the other big players completely fail at content moderation.
- JYellensFuckboy 4y agoIs this in fact the case? Of course it is being claimed, but I always perceived that KF's nastiness was relatively self-contained, e.g. when someone encourages suicide, it's performative to other Farmers, rather than reaching out to a potential victim or their loved ones. All bark, no bite, and caged.
- Borgz 4y agoWikipedia has information on 3 suicides related to KiwiFarms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms#Suicides_of_harassment_targets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms#Suicides_of_harassm...
- wyager 4y ago
- Khaine 4y agoJoshua Moon, the owner of Kiwifarms was on Rekieta Law[1] and provided his view that kiwi farms did not cause these suicides [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP92u3ld1-w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP92u3ld1-w
- killyourcar 4y agoI can see no reason why the owner of kiwi farms would want to believe that kiwi farms wasn't directly responsible for suicides (and terrorism via swatting). /s Of course kiwi farms caused those suicides.
- trennep 4y ago
- aa9a0s9dsljk 4y agoThe current push for cloudflare to unlist kiwifarms is in response to a well known twitch streamer's attempted killing via swatting. They literally had to leave the country (canada), and the new address was found, and they were swatted again. https://globalnews.ca/news/9097654/twitch-streamer-and-transgender-activist-doxxed-in-northern-ireland/ https://globalnews.ca/news/9097654/twitch-streamer-and-trans... Their "nastiness" (suggestion: terrorism) is never self contained. I know several people who've been doxxed on there - every single person had to move and change their legal name. If a thread on someone in KF is active, they will find every member of your family, your workplace, friends and loved ones. Then if they find your friends are "degenerates", they will doxx them too, and all their family workplace friends and loved ones. The fucking point of the site is harassment - they post ADDRESSES and PHONE NUMBERS, why would those ever be allowed if it was supposed to be self-contained? Here is the how the southern poverty law center describes Kiwifarms: > KiwiFarms – a forum with roots in 4Chan culture that has become notorious for engaging in extreme trolling, harassment, and even stalking Source: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/atomwaffen-division https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/grou... Throwaway because its not safe to post on my primary account about them while kiwifarms is allowed to operate.
- wyager 4y agoI don't think this is accurate. I've only looked at KF briefly, but it seems like the causal ancestor is actually that KF tracks people who are loudly and publicly doing crazy stuff, which correlates with people who are at risk of loudly and publicly killing themselves.
- Borgz 4y ago8chan users radicalize each other and encourage each other to commit mass shootings. KiwiFarms users post the personal information of people and encourage each other to harass them to the point of suicide. I don't see how they aren't comparable.
- wahnfrieden 4y agoSwatting also results in shooting deaths
- paulmd 4y agoWhat is the distinction you are drawing between a death from a swatting and pulling the trigger yourself? Is this some "I didn't kill you, I just tied you up and left you on the tracks at 11:55 for the noon train" distinction? And just because the attacks aren't explicitly coordinated on the site doesn't mean there's not culpability there... if an 8chan user is radicalized by 8chan and attacks a target suggested by 8chan, that doesn't mean 8chan isn't responsible just because the user didn't explicitly type "yes I am going to attack on Febtober 7th at 2pm". That's sort of the problem with the whole "stochastic terrorism" thing... there's a transparently thin veneer of deniability for everyone involved, even the leaders. We obviously don't tolerate those excuses when dealing with jihad, you're going to get sanctioned or even bombed even if you're "just their spiritual leader and not actually involved with planning. There's no reason to with 8chan or KF either.
- kmeisthax 4y agoI think the post you were replying to was agreeing with you. "I don't see how they aren't comparable", i.e. they are comparable.
- Akronymus 4y ago> KiwiFarms users post the personal information of people and encourage each other to harass them to the point of suicide. Both of those things are EXPLICITLY against the rules and are heavily enforced. They only take public information and are point and laugh, but don't touch. Reprehensible for sure, but your portrayal isn't accurate.
- judge2020 4y agoThey're effectively saying they were wrong then: > To be clear, just because we did it in a limited set of cases before doesn’t mean we were right when we did. Or that we will ever do it again.
- hammyhavoc 4y agoAnd like that, we've gone from "very" to "extremely" disappointing. That's a hell of a statement from them.
- namelessoracle 4y agoIf you actually read their article, it seems they are saying that 8chan WASNT defensible to them and was a mistake for them to do so.
- hammyhavoc 4y agoI did read the article. I read it twice. Once prior to commenting, once with someone I showed it to. I think you're misinterpreting my comment. I stated this: "but I don't see how KF is defensible whilst 8chan et al aren't" This meant: I don't understand how they can invoke the removal of 8chan and a neo-Nazi site, yet retain KF.
- pessimizer 4y agoBut if they "invoked" the removal of 8chan to say that they shouldn't have done it, I don't understand the relevance. Since you simply changed defended to "invoked," it seems that you're also aware that they aren't defending removing "8chan et al."
- hammyhavoc 4y agoI think I misunderstood the statement.
- dastbe 4y agothen why don’t they publicly invite back 8chan and the daily stormer, possibly for a discount/free? similarly, are they lobbying to get FOSTA revised so they can bring back Switter? their opinion is that it is (almost always?) ethically wrong for them to withhold security products. for the two websites i mentioned, nobody is stopping them from providing services. for a third, they could lobby to fix fosta and/or not transit switter traffic in the us.
- _chendo_ 4y agoCloudflare claimed they were going to fight FOSTA but I've seen absolutely nothing done about it.
- im3w1l 4y agoSince the article talks about how they will use different policies for different services: Which services was kiwifarms using? Are they now using a reduced set or none at all?
- hammyhavoc 4y ago
- marginalia_nu 4y agoIt's a really tricky situation. On the one hand, websites like KF and the like are utterly reprehensible. On the other hand, Cloudflare taking it upon themselves to police the Internet is a nightmare in its own, given their bot-prevention services are effectively mandatory in order to even keep any sort of larger interactive website running. What is permitted to say is something for the courts, not for the whims of private businesses, to decide.
- fppoak 4y ago
- hammyhavoc 4y agoLike with so many SaaS, CloudFlare has perhaps become too many digital eggs in one digital basket, so inevitably it will result in disappointment and bad decisions ala Twitter, GoDaddy etc.
- marginalia_nu 4y agoIt's also sort of hard put the cat in the bag, for the service that instituted the policy and for competitors. If you start a competing free-speech twitter competitor, you're effectively "twitter for InfoWars fans, QAnon and assorted holocaust deniers". Likewise, the headlines if Twitter themselves softened their line would hardly be about standing up for free speech ideals...
- kmeisthax 4y agoThe problem is that all those bad decisions inevitably spark from these platform companies not wanting to enforce their own AUP. We point out a particular bad actor in violation of their own policies, and they do nothing. We complain loudly about it in the news, and they vaguely commit to "fighting" the problems that were already against their AUP... but not any specific named bad actors. Automated systems are chucked at the wall, but the actual people people are angry about are exempted in the name of "free speech" until it costs the company business. This cycle repeats until a politician gets a bug up their butt about it and passes a law mandating platforms have more censorious policies.
- causi 4y ago8chan literally had sub boards dedicated to child pornography. Kiwi Farms is where people make fun of other people. They're really not comparable unless you believe "not being made fun of" is a human right.
- yanderekko 4y ago> They're really not comparable unless you believe "not being made fun of" is a human right. This is meant to be sarcastic but a lot of people basically do believe this. Most arguments about "stochastic terrorism" would implicitly aim to devalue/censor any sort of speech that "punched down".
- pjc50 4y agoStochastic terrorism involves actual murder. https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/buffalo-shooter-stochastic-terrorism-and-how-counter-it https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/buffalo-shooter-stocha...
- yanderekko 4y agoYes, and one can argue that everyone who denigrates group X is guilty of stochastic terrorism when an attack on group X occurs.
- throw149102 4y agoA more charitable version of this argument would build in a series of degrees as to how likely those denigrations are to make stochastic terrorism occur. For example, vague insults directed at a group of people are less likely to cause terrorism than ones associated with a single person. Insults that come loaded with implicit threats (like doxxing) are much more likely to cause stochastic terrorism than those without. Insults and threats against groups who are marginalized in society are more likely to cause terrorism. Insults made in a space full of mentally deranged people are more likely to cause terrorism. With all of this, it's clear that if you're going to argue that stochastic terrorism even exists, you should believe that it is happening at Kiwi Farms. Incredibly personal, incredibly specific (doxxing), directed at marginalized people, and in a space full of people that are already predisposed to acts of violence.
- syrrim 4y agoThey dropped support for 8ch after successive terrorist attacks, one of which killed 50 innocent people. The CEO has stated that he regrets dropping them.
- at_a_remove 4y agoRemember, while they took down 8chan, they left up ISIS sites hosting ISIS-made videos of ISIS members burning people alive, popping off their heads with detcord, and the like. 8chan bad, ISIS ... well, not as bad? I will never stop reminding people that the CEO said he woke up in a bad mood one day and took down protections for one group ... but left murdersites alone. Can't be undone. Remember that whenever they pretend to be unbiased.
- ignoramous 4y ago> I will never stop reminding people that the CEO said he woke up in a bad mood one day and took down protections for one group ... but left murdersites alone. Can't be undone. Out of loop. What is this in reference to?
- hotfix12 4y agoWhen they banned the Daily Stormer because the CEO overreacted to some news story.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- catapart 4y agoThat's what is so sad about this. Cloudflare is NOT a utility, and they don't lobby to be one. If they were, then their arguments would have some merit. Instead, they're saying "look, we're a utility! We have to act like one! But we're going to keep the benefits of being a private company; we're just not going to exercise our private discretion because then we couldn't pretend we were a utility when it suits us." As a dev who was once entirely on board with CF and recommended their "workers" environments to anyone that would listen, I'm very sorry to have to terminate both my business with them and my evangelizing of their services. But I'm certainly not going to stay in business with or recommend a company that would rather hide from their responsibility than to take the political heat for sensible business decisions (like removing poisonous clients).
- hammyhavoc 4y agoI need more of this energy in my life. Great take.