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On the contrary, censorship is effective even if it only makes something less common. No censorship is absolute: Chinese people absolutely know homosexuality ex

On the contrary, censorship is effective even if it only makes something less common. No censorship is absolute: Chinese people absolutely know homosexuality exists, what its censorship accomplishes is keeping it the province of the “weirdos”. Towards the same end, the USG regularly uses financial incentives to make one side of an issue 100x more prevalent than the other. It’s actually a more insidious form of censorship, because there’s less legal oversight, most people don’t know that it’s happening, and it’s hard to call out any particular instance of it.

kasey_junk 4y ago
In the OPs example 1 provider censored and another didn’t. It made global news. It wasn’t subtle. Therefore it wasn’t insidious and was clearly not equivalent to systematic governmental intervention. Again, I’d be happy to discuss how western governments use soft power and financial incentives to accomplish their censorship goals. It’s an important topic. But I’m not going to do it from the basis that it’s equivalent to governmental action at the barrel of the gun. I also won’t accept a boxing match where you can kick and eye gouge and I’ve got a hand tied up. If you think either of those things is equivalent, great, it’s your right in the west. It’s not in the regimes you are tacitly defending and I won’t explicitly condone it by engaging.
- handsclean 4y ago
  I’m not trying to argue in bad faith. I think it’s my idea that’s offensive to you, but I’m open to criticism if you think there’s something else. > But I’m not going to do it from the basis that it’s equivalent to governmental action at the barrel of the gun. Genuinely, why do you believe it isn’t? I understand that the threat of violence carries its own separate offense, but in terms of ability to suppress ideas, it is equivalent. At an individual level it’s a choice, but at a systems level it’s enforced as surely as at the barrel of a gun, by modulating influence according to conformance. I’m not defending China, and more broadly I don’t think criticism of the USG is tacit support for China. Whatever happened to principles leading the good guys, instead of the other way around? And true, in China I wouldn’t have the freedom to express these ideas - maybe if they were smarter, they’d find a way to let me feel that freedom while still firmly controlling whether those ideas can spread and shape society.
  - kasey_junk 4y ago
    I genuinely don’t believe it’s the same thing because we have proof that it isn’t. In one example we have a government enforcing a systematic ban that prevented any access to content, in the other we have a singular streaming service making an editorial decision that was expressly rejected by their competitors and widely denounced. No access to content was lost.

kasey_junk 4y ago

In the OPs example 1 provider censored and another didn’t. It made global news. It wasn’t subtle. Therefore it wasn’t insidious and was clearly not equivalent to systematic governmental intervention. Again, I’d be happy to discuss how western governments use soft power and financial incentives to accomplish their censorship goals. It’s an important topic. But I’m not going to do it from the basis that it’s equivalent to governmental action at the barrel of the gun. I also won’t accept a boxing match where you can kick and eye gouge and I’ve got a hand tied up. If you think either of those things is equivalent, great, it’s your right in the west. It’s not in the regimes you are tacitly defending and I won’t explicitly condone it by engaging.

handsclean 4y ago
I’m not trying to argue in bad faith. I think it’s my idea that’s offensive to you, but I’m open to criticism if you think there’s something else. > But I’m not going to do it from the basis that it’s equivalent to governmental action at the barrel of the gun. Genuinely, why do you believe it isn’t? I understand that the threat of violence carries its own separate offense, but in terms of ability to suppress ideas, it is equivalent. At an individual level it’s a choice, but at a systems level it’s enforced as surely as at the barrel of a gun, by modulating influence according to conformance. I’m not defending China, and more broadly I don’t think criticism of the USG is tacit support for China. Whatever happened to principles leading the good guys, instead of the other way around? And true, in China I wouldn’t have the freedom to express these ideas - maybe if they were smarter, they’d find a way to let me feel that freedom while still firmly controlling whether those ideas can spread and shape society.
- kasey_junk 4y ago
  I genuinely don’t believe it’s the same thing because we have proof that it isn’t. In one example we have a government enforcing a systematic ban that prevented any access to content, in the other we have a singular streaming service making an editorial decision that was expressly rejected by their competitors and widely denounced. No access to content was lost.