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According to "The DevOps Handbook" DevOps is... > the outcome of applying the most trusted principles from the domain of physical manufacturing and leadership

According to "The DevOps Handbook" DevOps is... > the outcome of applying the most trusted principles from the domain of physical manufacturing and leadership to the IT value stream. DevOps relies on bodies of knowledge from Lean, Theory of Constraints, the Toyota Production System, resilience engineering, learning organizations, safety culture, human factors, and many others. Anybody that's worked in an organization that "uses DevOps" or has "DevOps Engineers" knows that this simply isn't true in the vast majority of circumstances. Too often DevOps is just a new name for an ops team. "True" DevOps is all about aligning incentives, sharing responsibilities, and fostering collaboration between people who build and maintain systems whereas "DevOps" (with air quotes) is just a new spin on being a sysadmin with a greater emphasis on AWS and Terraform.

baobabKoodaa 4y ago
Both the quote and your response to it read like word soup to me. I have literally no idea what the point in either of these are. Historically, the word "DevOps" meant that instead of having separate "Dev" and "Ops" teams, the same people would do both Dev and Ops work.
- lazide 4y ago
  Which is what they’re saying. Because they do both jobs, folks understand both sides, and work together to make things work better end to end for them and for customers. Alternatives include siloed dev teams that throw shitty software that crashes in production all the time to an overworked ops team that takes all the blame. And overworked ops teams that have gone pager-blind and only care if a VP yells at them, so ignore all but the most major issues - after they already happened.
  - 0xbadcafebee 4y ago
    The fact that engineers are not taught those topics are why DevOps has failed. We're expecting whole organizations to magically improve when they don't understand how. I can count on one hand the number of people I have met who understand OP's comment.
    - lazide 4y ago
      Yup. Though like social studies, even if it was mandatory education, I suspect 90% of it folks would immediately forget. Ops is hard, and irritating, and a pain in the ass. It’s also the process of actually solving the customers needs. If someone can fiddle around cutting and pasting off stack overflow without having to worry about it, most will. I personally can’t NOT be involved, but that’s why my resume looks the way it does.
  - baobabKoodaa 4y ago
    > Which is what they’re saying. No, it's not. The definition they provided for DevOps was markedly different: > DevOps is [...] the outcome of applying the most trusted principles from the domain of physical manufacturing and leadership to the IT value stream. DevOps relies on bodies of knowledge from Lean, Theory of Constraints, the Toyota Production System, resilience engineering, learning organizations, safety culture, human factors, and many others. If somebody reads that sentence - without already having knowledge about what "DevOps" means - are they going to think "oh yes, I see, so DevOps means having the same team do both Dev and Ops work"? Of course not! They're not going to have any idea what DevOps means, other than the fact that it's something consultants sell with word soup.
    - lazide 4y ago
      Is your point that it’s a bunch of buzzwords that most folks don’t understand? Then yes, I 100% agree. Knowing what the buzzwords mean, I was translating. ‘stewardess, I speak Jive’ style.
deleted 4y ago
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baobabKoodaa 4y ago

Both the quote and your response to it read like word soup to me. I have literally no idea what the point in either of these are. Historically, the word "DevOps" meant that instead of having separate "Dev" and "Ops" teams, the same people would do both Dev and Ops work.

lazide 4y ago
Which is what they’re saying. Because they do both jobs, folks understand both sides, and work together to make things work better end to end for them and for customers. Alternatives include siloed dev teams that throw shitty software that crashes in production all the time to an overworked ops team that takes all the blame. And overworked ops teams that have gone pager-blind and only care if a VP yells at them, so ignore all but the most major issues - after they already happened.
- 0xbadcafebee 4y ago
  The fact that engineers are not taught those topics are why DevOps has failed. We're expecting whole organizations to magically improve when they don't understand how. I can count on one hand the number of people I have met who understand OP's comment.
  - lazide 4y ago
    Yup. Though like social studies, even if it was mandatory education, I suspect 90% of it folks would immediately forget. Ops is hard, and irritating, and a pain in the ass. It’s also the process of actually solving the customers needs. If someone can fiddle around cutting and pasting off stack overflow without having to worry about it, most will. I personally can’t NOT be involved, but that’s why my resume looks the way it does.
- baobabKoodaa 4y ago
  > Which is what they’re saying. No, it's not. The definition they provided for DevOps was markedly different: > DevOps is [...] the outcome of applying the most trusted principles from the domain of physical manufacturing and leadership to the IT value stream. DevOps relies on bodies of knowledge from Lean, Theory of Constraints, the Toyota Production System, resilience engineering, learning organizations, safety culture, human factors, and many others. If somebody reads that sentence - without already having knowledge about what "DevOps" means - are they going to think "oh yes, I see, so DevOps means having the same team do both Dev and Ops work"? Of course not! They're not going to have any idea what DevOps means, other than the fact that it's something consultants sell with word soup.
  - lazide 4y ago
    Is your point that it’s a bunch of buzzwords that most folks don’t understand? Then yes, I 100% agree. Knowing what the buzzwords mean, I was translating. ‘stewardess, I speak Jive’ style.

deleted 4y ago

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