4 ms·

Try criticizing capitalism or "free markets" sometime.

dang 4y ago
People do that all the time on HN - I can give you a long list of comments complaining that HN is dominated by socialists, communists, Marxists, you name it. We should distinguish between making substantive anti-market arguments and shrill ideological rhetoric—the latter is going to get downvoted (correctly) regardless of ideology because it's against the site guidelines and the intended spirit of curious conversation - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32635382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32635382.
- actually_a_dog 4y ago
  > We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32635382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32635382. Well, golly gee, thanks! That's gonna generate some insightful discussion. I don't recall seeing very much thought to the left of Bernie Sanders/AOC on here (which is to say, left of the entire American mainstream). I'll believe that when I see it.
  - dang 4y ago
    Look closer! There are quite a few accounts representing further-left positions on HN. Look up claudiawerner or deanCommie or one or two of the accounts posting in this thread (edit: oops, I meant https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32637686 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32637686 - got my controversies mixed up). That's no problem as long as they stay within the site guidelines. Indeed, it's good for intellectual diversity. We do our best to protect accounts like that when we see majority prejudices acting unfairly (as well as other minority viewpoints, including strongly disagreeing ones). Of course those politics are less represented on HN than others, but they're less represented in society too. I'd guess they're rather more represented on HN than they are in the population at large, given HN's semi-intellectual orientation. (Only 50% HN users are in the US, btw, last I checked.) As for detaching this subthread- if we aren't going to mark a big-ass ideological meta subthread off topic, I'm not sure what we would. That's one of the most boring, generic, and pointless offtopic tangents there is. (Btw, nearly everyone who makes large claims on that note is completely wrong, because people's perceptions about this are determined by their own pre-existing positions. That's why the question of which way HN is like-totally-biased is decided so differently by every camp. If you want examples, there are dozens at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870.)
sofixa 4y ago
Or Apple, or libertarians, or Rust, or any other similar darling. Or suggesting that absolute free speech comes with issues when coupled with the global reach and pseudo anonymity of the Internet.
- actually_a_dog 4y ago
  Or saying anything negative about any country ("nationalistic flamebait," anyone?)
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    Especially if the "any" country is US.
    - actually_a_dog 4y ago
      I could show you multiple examples for many countries. Just search google for "dang nationalistic site:news.ycombinator.com" for some great ones. Admittedly, a lot of them are over the line, but it really is as if you can't mention any country in any kind of remotely critical way, yet they won't just publish that in the guidelines for some reason.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    I constantly do those things, any downvote consequences have yet materialize.
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  Funny thing that the top comment right now criticizes Rust.
Gigachad 4y ago
If you give good criticisms with well thought out and logical statements. It’s received well. If you dump a buzzword loaded handwavy comment, it isn’t. I think most HN users are quite receptive to debate around capitalism. It’s just that the majority of this debate is copy pasting slogans and making easily disproven statements.
int_19h 4y ago
As someone far left, I criticize capitalism routinely here, and it usually gets upvoted. As for free markets, it's hard to criticize something that is largely absent in our modern economy: capitalism is actively hostile to free markets and is basically a positive feedback loop for market monopolization. But I've seen people criticize free markets (as they understand them) and get upvoted as well, many times.
- actually_a_dog 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 4y ago
    To judge by the current thread, at least, the difference isn't ideological, it's that int_19h is using HN as intended, and your account not so much. We're not trying to dampen curious ideological discussion here; we're trying to dampen internet dreck. (You've also posted good comments to HN! my criticism here is narrowly scoped.)
marginalia_nu 4y ago
I've found you can get away with criticizing almost anything on HN, if you do it as an open discussion rather than from a closed position of just espousing doctrine. It's one of the great strengths of this community.
- Karrot_Kream 4y ago
  +1 though some threads/topics/crowds are more downvote happy than others. I still find the sheer breath of opinion on this site to be fantastic.

dang 4y ago

People do that all the time on HN - I can give you a long list of comments complaining that HN is dominated by socialists, communists, Marxists, you name it. We should distinguish between making substantive anti-market arguments and shrill ideological rhetoric—the latter is going to get downvoted (correctly) regardless of ideology because it's against the site guidelines and the intended spirit of curious conversation - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32635382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32635382.

actually_a_dog 4y ago
> We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32635382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32635382. Well, golly gee, thanks! That's gonna generate some insightful discussion. I don't recall seeing very much thought to the left of Bernie Sanders/AOC on here (which is to say, left of the entire American mainstream). I'll believe that when I see it.
- dang 4y ago
  Look closer! There are quite a few accounts representing further-left positions on HN. Look up claudiawerner or deanCommie or one or two of the accounts posting in this thread (edit: oops, I meant https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32637686 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32637686 - got my controversies mixed up). That's no problem as long as they stay within the site guidelines. Indeed, it's good for intellectual diversity. We do our best to protect accounts like that when we see majority prejudices acting unfairly (as well as other minority viewpoints, including strongly disagreeing ones). Of course those politics are less represented on HN than others, but they're less represented in society too. I'd guess they're rather more represented on HN than they are in the population at large, given HN's semi-intellectual orientation. (Only 50% HN users are in the US, btw, last I checked.) As for detaching this subthread- if we aren't going to mark a big-ass ideological meta subthread off topic, I'm not sure what we would. That's one of the most boring, generic, and pointless offtopic tangents there is. (Btw, nearly everyone who makes large claims on that note is completely wrong, because people's perceptions about this are determined by their own pre-existing positions. That's why the question of which way HN is like-totally-biased is decided so differently by every camp. If you want examples, there are dozens at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870.)

sofixa 4y ago

Or Apple, or libertarians, or Rust, or any other similar darling. Or suggesting that absolute free speech comes with issues when coupled with the global reach and pseudo anonymity of the Internet.

actually_a_dog 4y ago
Or saying anything negative about any country ("nationalistic flamebait," anyone?)
- goodpoint 4y ago
  Especially if the "any" country is US.
  - actually_a_dog 4y ago
    I could show you multiple examples for many countries. Just search google for "dang nationalistic site:news.ycombinator.com" for some great ones. Admittedly, a lot of them are over the line, but it really is as if you can't mention any country in any kind of remotely critical way, yet they won't just publish that in the guidelines for some reason.
- hef19898 4y ago
  I constantly do those things, any downvote consequences have yet materialize.
marcosdumay 4y ago
Funny thing that the top comment right now criticizes Rust.

Gigachad 4y ago

If you give good criticisms with well thought out and logical statements. It’s received well. If you dump a buzzword loaded handwavy comment, it isn’t. I think most HN users are quite receptive to debate around capitalism. It’s just that the majority of this debate is copy pasting slogans and making easily disproven statements.

int_19h 4y ago

As someone far left, I criticize capitalism routinely here, and it usually gets upvoted. As for free markets, it's hard to criticize something that is largely absent in our modern economy: capitalism is actively hostile to free markets and is basically a positive feedback loop for market monopolization. But I've seen people criticize free markets (as they understand them) and get upvoted as well, many times.

actually_a_dog 4y ago
[flagged]
- dang 4y ago
  To judge by the current thread, at least, the difference isn't ideological, it's that int_19h is using HN as intended, and your account not so much. We're not trying to dampen curious ideological discussion here; we're trying to dampen internet dreck. (You've also posted good comments to HN! my criticism here is narrowly scoped.)

marginalia_nu 4y ago

I've found you can get away with criticizing almost anything on HN, if you do it as an open discussion rather than from a closed position of just espousing doctrine. It's one of the great strengths of this community.

Karrot_Kream 4y ago
+1 though some threads/topics/crowds are more downvote happy than others. I still find the sheer breath of opinion on this site to be fantastic.