5 ms·

That's interesting, so they can get closer to "just intonation" then? I assume it all breaks down if they need to play alongside a keyboard (or fretted) instru

That's interesting, so they can get closer to "just intonation" then? I assume it all breaks down if they need to play alongside a keyboard (or fretted) instrument.

JasonFruit 4y ago
We actually tend to approach Pythagorean tuning, according to the Catgut Acoustical Society.
jayknight 4y ago
Violins and family(typically) tune their instruments with 3/2 just fifths. You get the A (440) from the oboe and tune the rest of your strings with perfect just fifths. That means sometimes the cellos' C strings will be noticably too low in some circumstances so you'll see them finger an "open C" just above the nut to make it sound right.
- dbalatero 4y ago
  I actually tune my C string slightly sharp for this reason!
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  Huh, is that why an open C on a viola always buzzed wrong?
- wizofaus 4y ago
  It's 2% of a semitone off by my understanding. I thought I had pretty good ears but I really doubt I could pick that. Open strings do often stick out in general on string instruments though, for a combination of reasons, lack of vibrato and ability to micro-adjust tuning presumably being the main ones (but even the tone is different, I assume based on the difference between having one end fixed by a soft fleshy substance vs the wooden nut).
  - palimpsests 4y ago
    the last reason you gave is exactly why open strings sound different. check out zero-fret guitars.
- Bud 4y ago
  Except you very very often don't get an A=440, since a lot of orchestras don't tune to that pitch and early-music orchestras are a full half-tone below that, etc.
dumpsterlid 4y ago
Well yes, the pitch of any violin note except an open string is set by where the finger is placed. However, being perfectly in tune is also a big red herring kind of thing. People, especially people who like seeing math in music, get obsessed with chasing ideas of perfection in music and music is art... it isn't supposed to be perfect. To have sounds at perfect intervals or sounds perfectly in tune is after a certain point just an annoying detail compared to literally every other aspect of a piece of music. A lot of advanced digital synthesizers will carefully detune oscillators from each other so they aren't "perfectly in tune" in order to get thicker sounds.
- copperx 4y ago
  How does all of that sound to people with absolute pitch?
  - Bud 4y ago
    Varies a lot depending on the person. "Absolute" pitch isn't really absolute, in the vast majority of cases. It's a degree of an ability to retain a given pitch and then produce it later without prompting or context. Keep in mind also that a lot of musicians with "perfect" pitch have to deal with performing situations where the main pitch is not the standard A=440 Hz. For instance in the Baroque repertoire which I perform often, the most common pitch is around A=415, which is around a half step lower, but there are other tunings that pros have to deal with which are both above and below A=440 (European orchestras often tune higher, music before the Baroque is often at A=390, music from the classical period is often around A=430, etc.).
- palimpsests 4y ago
  including multiple methods for the user to detune oscillators is quite common on modern synthesizers, advanced or otherwise. it’s almost never a fixed amount of detuning. one of those methods is called a “chorus” effect. this is extremely common across effect platforms and is not limited to synthesizers / keyboard-type instruments.
- HelloNurse 4y ago
  > A lot of advanced digital synthesizers will carefully detune oscillators from each other so they aren't "perfectly in tune" in order to get thicker sounds As noted in other comments, this also applies to singing and arbitrary pitch instruments, possibly at a subconscious level, and it has the opposite "mathematical" implication than you seem to think: any fixed tuning is a serious constraint that makes some chords sound wrong, and only being able to tune individual notes perfectly allows the introduction of aesthetically pleasing imperfections.
wizofaus 4y ago
String players have no choice but to learn equal temperament as the vast majority of the time they're playing alongside other musicians, and it's what modern ears (since the late 18th century) expect to hear. It'd be a rare violinist these days that could actually accurately play something in any sort of intonation based entirely on just intervals. Note that almost any sort of vibrato is likely to "smother" the pitch difference between equal and just temperaments anyway - e.g. an equal temperament fifth is 2 cents off a natural fifth, but vibrato can cover a 50 to 70 cent range (opera singers often go over 100, which I find unpleasant to listen to personally - it's basically a trill!)
- chimeracoder 4y ago
  > String players have no choice but to learn equal temperament as the vast majority of the time they're playing alongside other musicians, and it's what modern ears (since the late 18th century) expect to hear. It'd be a rare violinist these days that could actually accurately play something in any sort of intonation based entirely on just intervals. That's not true at all. A lot of string players learn to play in orchestras or chamber style, which means they're only playing with other stringed instruments, and they absolutely are taught dynamic tuning by ear, which uses just intervals.
  - jnwatson 4y ago
    Exactly. The only fixed-pitch instruments in an orchestra are the piano and the percussion section. It was routine even in my high school brass section to pitch down the major 3rds.
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      Having briefly learned a few wind instruments (flute and horn primarily) I'm aware pitch adjustment is possible but the keys/valves are designed around equal temperament - for anything other than slower sustained passages (or potentially repeated notes) constantly trying to approximate just intervals doesn't seem sustainable. And again, absolutely not what I would want or except to hear as a composer.
Tade0 4y ago
Fretted instruments, especially electric guitars, are usually not strictly equal temperament and are made to have just intonation in at least some combinations of notes because equal temperament sounds bad with distortion. There exist equal temperament guitars, but they're usually custom built: https://guitargearfinder.com/faq/true-temperament-frets/ https://guitargearfinder.com/faq/true-temperament-frets/ In any case most people don't mind such small differences, especially that guitars aren't terribly precise to begin with - a player can easily get 10 cents of a semitone on each individual string when playing a power chord with distortion, bringing the whole thing to just intonation.
- david-gpu 4y ago
  Edit: I was wrong below. --- Hi! I am not a musician. Did you mean that true temperament guitars are the ones with squiggly frets, instead? My understanding was that true temperament [0] is not the same as equal temperament [1]. I also believe that both pianos and guitars are typically tuned to equal temperament [2], but you may well be right about guitars. Maybe somebody can shed some more light on this. Thanks! [0] https://www.truetemperament.com https://www.truetemperament.com [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament [2] https://youtube.com/watch?v=-penQWPHJzI https://youtube.com/watch?v=-penQWPHJzI
  - Tade0 4y ago
    True temperament appears to be a marketing term for a fret system providing equal temperament. A "spherical cow" model of a guitar would be equal temperament, but that ignores the messy reality of how strings behave - chiefly they need to be some distance above the fretboard and pressing them naturally bends the string ever so slightly.
    - palimpsests 4y ago
      so slightly that it can be on the range of 0-5 cents, provided the instrument is sufficiently constructed and the player is sufficiently skilled. this is why a guitar using equal temperment can play consistently in-tune with itself as well as with other instruments tuned in the same system. it’s not about perfection according to some abstract mathematical model.

That's interesting, so they can get closer to "just intonation" then? I assume it all breaks down if they need to play alongside a keyboard (or fretted) instrument.

JasonFruit 4y ago

We actually tend to approach Pythagorean tuning, according to the Catgut Acoustical Society.

jayknight 4y ago

Violins and family(typically) tune their instruments with 3/2 just fifths. You get the A (440) from the oboe and tune the rest of your strings with perfect just fifths. That means sometimes the cellos' C strings will be noticably too low in some circumstances so you'll see them finger an "open C" just above the nut to make it sound right.

dbalatero 4y ago
I actually tune my C string slightly sharp for this reason!
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
Huh, is that why an open C on a viola always buzzed wrong?
wizofaus 4y ago
It's 2% of a semitone off by my understanding. I thought I had pretty good ears but I really doubt I could pick that. Open strings do often stick out in general on string instruments though, for a combination of reasons, lack of vibrato and ability to micro-adjust tuning presumably being the main ones (but even the tone is different, I assume based on the difference between having one end fixed by a soft fleshy substance vs the wooden nut).
- palimpsests 4y ago
  the last reason you gave is exactly why open strings sound different. check out zero-fret guitars.
Bud 4y ago
Except you very very often don't get an A=440, since a lot of orchestras don't tune to that pitch and early-music orchestras are a full half-tone below that, etc.

dumpsterlid 4y ago

Well yes, the pitch of any violin note except an open string is set by where the finger is placed. However, being perfectly in tune is also a big red herring kind of thing. People, especially people who like seeing math in music, get obsessed with chasing ideas of perfection in music and music is art... it isn't supposed to be perfect. To have sounds at perfect intervals or sounds perfectly in tune is after a certain point just an annoying detail compared to literally every other aspect of a piece of music. A lot of advanced digital synthesizers will carefully detune oscillators from each other so they aren't "perfectly in tune" in order to get thicker sounds.

copperx 4y ago
How does all of that sound to people with absolute pitch?
- Bud 4y ago
  Varies a lot depending on the person. "Absolute" pitch isn't really absolute, in the vast majority of cases. It's a degree of an ability to retain a given pitch and then produce it later without prompting or context. Keep in mind also that a lot of musicians with "perfect" pitch have to deal with performing situations where the main pitch is not the standard A=440 Hz. For instance in the Baroque repertoire which I perform often, the most common pitch is around A=415, which is around a half step lower, but there are other tunings that pros have to deal with which are both above and below A=440 (European orchestras often tune higher, music before the Baroque is often at A=390, music from the classical period is often around A=430, etc.).
palimpsests 4y ago
including multiple methods for the user to detune oscillators is quite common on modern synthesizers, advanced or otherwise. it’s almost never a fixed amount of detuning. one of those methods is called a “chorus” effect. this is extremely common across effect platforms and is not limited to synthesizers / keyboard-type instruments.
HelloNurse 4y ago
> A lot of advanced digital synthesizers will carefully detune oscillators from each other so they aren't "perfectly in tune" in order to get thicker sounds As noted in other comments, this also applies to singing and arbitrary pitch instruments, possibly at a subconscious level, and it has the opposite "mathematical" implication than you seem to think: any fixed tuning is a serious constraint that makes some chords sound wrong, and only being able to tune individual notes perfectly allows the introduction of aesthetically pleasing imperfections.

wizofaus 4y ago

String players have no choice but to learn equal temperament as the vast majority of the time they're playing alongside other musicians, and it's what modern ears (since the late 18th century) expect to hear. It'd be a rare violinist these days that could actually accurately play something in any sort of intonation based entirely on just intervals. Note that almost any sort of vibrato is likely to "smother" the pitch difference between equal and just temperaments anyway - e.g. an equal temperament fifth is 2 cents off a natural fifth, but vibrato can cover a 50 to 70 cent range (opera singers often go over 100, which I find unpleasant to listen to personally - it's basically a trill!)

chimeracoder 4y ago
> String players have no choice but to learn equal temperament as the vast majority of the time they're playing alongside other musicians, and it's what modern ears (since the late 18th century) expect to hear. It'd be a rare violinist these days that could actually accurately play something in any sort of intonation based entirely on just intervals. That's not true at all. A lot of string players learn to play in orchestras or chamber style, which means they're only playing with other stringed instruments, and they absolutely are taught dynamic tuning by ear, which uses just intervals.
- jnwatson 4y ago
  Exactly. The only fixed-pitch instruments in an orchestra are the piano and the percussion section. It was routine even in my high school brass section to pitch down the major 3rds.
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    Having briefly learned a few wind instruments (flute and horn primarily) I'm aware pitch adjustment is possible but the keys/valves are designed around equal temperament - for anything other than slower sustained passages (or potentially repeated notes) constantly trying to approximate just intervals doesn't seem sustainable. And again, absolutely not what I would want or except to hear as a composer.

Tade0 4y ago

Fretted instruments, especially electric guitars, are usually not strictly equal temperament and are made to have just intonation in at least some combinations of notes because equal temperament sounds bad with distortion. There exist equal temperament guitars, but they're usually custom built: https://guitargearfinder.com/faq/true-temperament-frets/ https://guitargearfinder.com/faq/true-temperament-frets/ In any case most people don't mind such small differences, especially that guitars aren't terribly precise to begin with - a player can easily get 10 cents of a semitone on each individual string when playing a power chord with distortion, bringing the whole thing to just intonation.

david-gpu 4y ago
Edit: I was wrong below. --- Hi! I am not a musician. Did you mean that true temperament guitars are the ones with squiggly frets, instead? My understanding was that true temperament [0] is not the same as equal temperament [1]. I also believe that both pianos and guitars are typically tuned to equal temperament [2], but you may well be right about guitars. Maybe somebody can shed some more light on this. Thanks! [0] https://www.truetemperament.com https://www.truetemperament.com [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament [2] https://youtube.com/watch?v=-penQWPHJzI https://youtube.com/watch?v=-penQWPHJzI
- Tade0 4y ago
  True temperament appears to be a marketing term for a fret system providing equal temperament. A "spherical cow" model of a guitar would be equal temperament, but that ignores the messy reality of how strings behave - chiefly they need to be some distance above the fretboard and pressing them naturally bends the string ever so slightly.
  - palimpsests 4y ago
    so slightly that it can be on the range of 0-5 cents, provided the instrument is sufficiently constructed and the player is sufficiently skilled. this is why a guitar using equal temperment can play consistently in-tune with itself as well as with other instruments tuned in the same system. it’s not about perfection according to some abstract mathematical model.