7 ms·

The keyboard rabbit-hole gets pretty deep. I started off wanting a nicer typing experience, and ended up realising so much about the traditional keyboard design

The keyboard rabbit-hole gets pretty deep. I started off wanting a nicer typing experience, and ended up realising so much about the traditional keyboard designs didn't make sense to me (here's someone nicely summing up the reasons why https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrska7UU7BE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrska7UU7BE). For me the optimum is a split 34-key keyboard (the open-source Ferris Sweep https://github.com/davidphilipbarr/Sweep https://github.com/davidphilipbarr/Sweep) with a custom keymap firmware (QMK). Going even deeper, you can generate a PCB layout that's personalised to the shape of your hands: https://github.com/ergogen/ergogen https://github.com/ergogen/ergogen

plutonorm 4y ago
yeah, dipping your toe in this hobby is like dipping your toe into a triple A MMORPG. Make sure you are prepared for the toll it may take on your productive years.
- mrtedbear 4y ago
  100%. Going in I had no idea how all-consuming it would get.
  - Enginerrrd 4y ago
    Same here, although once I'd spent an absurd amount of money and then even more time, I finally, settled on a really good setup and haven't had the desire to change it. IRIS keyboard (https://keeb.io/products/iris-rev-4-keyboard-split-ergonomic-keyboard https://keeb.io/products/iris-rev-4-keyboard-split-ergonomic...) with my own QMK keymap with 3 layers.
    - jrumbut 4y ago
      Oh wow that looks like what I'd want but it looks like they are selling a circuit board? How do I get one that I can pull out of the box and be typing within 60 seconds?
      - rgoulter 4y ago
        Keeb.io does list prebuilt, where the store owner would build it for you. https://keeb.io/collections/pre-built-keyboards/products/iris-keyboard-pre-built https://keeb.io/collections/pre-built-keyboards/products/iri... Pro'bly the most popular pre-built keyboard along the same lines is the Moonlander. https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ The configuration user experience would be nicer with this.
      - Aromasin 4y ago
        It's not precisely the same, but the ZSA Moonlander has the same layout with stilts and a wrist rest so that you can position it how you feel best. The real winner is their Oryx firmware that makes reprogramming the keys on the board a breeze. It's the best investment I've made in my ergonomic health.
        wolrah 4y ago
        > The real winner is their Oryx firmware that makes reprogramming the keys on the board a breeze. It's the best investment I've made in my ergonomic health. As a Moonlander owner who loves it, it's worth pointing out that most QMK-based boards (including the Moonlander itself with a third party firmware) can support the VIA system for similar easy GUI programming. https://www.caniusevia.com/ https://www.caniusevia.com/
- bergenty 4y ago
  I don’t get it though. What’s the payoff, marginally better comfort and typing speed or is it like having collectibles to own and show off? Personally, sure a mechanical keyboard is a little more satisfying to type on but who really cares.
  - least 4y ago
    There's another side to the mechanical keyboard community that is focused on ergonomics [1]. I personally use a Kinesis Advantage 2 [2] with an Adantage 360 [3] on preorder. These are not marginal improvements to my quality of life, they enable me to continue using a keyboard at all. As for the very expensive, mostly standard layout keyboards... it's an expensive hobby with marginal improvements at best, but the same could be said about furniture purchases. Most people don't choose furniture based solely off its functional characteristics. They want something pleasant to look at, especially since it's something they're using every day for a long period of time. I think there's plenty of utility in that, though personally I would never pay the prices that these people do. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ [2] https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/ [3] https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage360/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage360/
    - pca006132 4y ago
      Same, split keyboard (with thumb cluster) may take some time to get used to, but it does improve the QoL for me. The major problem with this is that either the keyboards are relatively expensive or you have to DIY. I'm looking to clone the moonlander keyboard but modify its layout to redox, and print it by myself. DIY can cut down a lot of the cost.
    - dalai 4y ago
      Would love to get one (actually any split one), but they are crazy expensive. Add duties (I’m in the EU) and it goes beyond what I would be willing to spend for something that I can’t even try first. I don’t even need mechanical switches, wireless, backlight or programmability, but I will probably need two of them in the end. DIY can lower the price, but it is a hustle and in the time needed is not free. Maybe at some point Logitech will offer a split one for a more reasonable price, but I won’t hold my breath.
- nocman 4y ago
  As I said in another part of this thread, I don't have any problem "dipping my toe in". It isn't difficult at all to enjoy using a good mechanical keyboard without becoming obsessed with it. My friends who use mechanical keyboards also don't have any problem with that kind of obsession. I guess it depends on the person.
Eji1700 4y ago
The keyboard hobby has led me to realize a few major things- 1. The capslock key should not be where it is. In no sane layout should such an easy to reach key serve such a niche purpose. 2. The spacebar is a massive waste of space. I LOVE split space layouts (typing on a mercutio right now). Having all 3 "spaces" act as space on tap helps, and makes it easy to hold for modifiers. 3. Having the numpad/arrow keys right under my right hand (arrows on jkli, numpad basically on jkl = 456, functions in the same layout) is SO much faster than having to move your hand to get to those kinds of keys. The navigation keys being at my fingertips is ESPECIALLY useful as a coder where using things like home/end/pgup/pgdown can really help you move through your code faster. I'm now at my end game (mercutio 40 on my "entertainment" machine, a crkbd at work (soon be be a cornish zen), and a discipline 60 for my gaming machine....seriously rougelikes are the only reason it's not all 40's), and it's been a hell of a path. I really hope the market expands a bit more because there's a lot of nice things when people start getting into the hobby, but it's a rough hobby to get into given how expensive it can get.
- maigret 4y ago
  Caps lock is where and how it is because its importance for typewriters. When you can’t change fonts, caps are important to realize hierarchy. I agree the contexts have now changed.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- cam_l 4y ago
  I fully agree with 1 & 2 at least. So I remapped capslock with delete and space with enter. (Numpad is too thoroughly embedded in my head to move it.) Easier/lazier than building a new KB. Though it does present some issues when using other machines. And people thoroughly freak out if they jump on mine.
  - austhrow743 4y ago
    You use enter more frequently than you use spaces?
nocman 4y ago
> The keyboard rabbit-hole gets pretty deep. Not for everyone. For years I have preferred keyboards with Cherry MX switches, but I just buy fairly inexpensive ones used. Not really a rabbit hole at all.
- dwrowe 4y ago
  That applies to basically any hobby though right? The perceived depth of the hobby is largely dependent on your desire to explore that depth. It can be incredibly deep for some, as evidenced by people designing their own switches - or shallow (for you) by saying Cherry is good enough.
thwoeruoi2343 4y ago
3np 4y ago
Would you share your keymap? Curious how you're able to get all the necessary characters without making wrist-twisting layer combos. Or are you uisng chording?
- rgoulter 4y ago
  One of the most popular layouts along these lines is the miryoku layout https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku To me the key concepts behind this are: - Home Row modifiers: putting Shift, Ctrl, Gui, Alt behind tap-hold functionality on the home row keys. (Now you don't need to strain your pinky finger with these, and can stay on the home row more). - More thumb keys, with layering using tap-hold. This brings Backspace, Enter, Esc, Tab to within reach of the thumb, and provides a bunch of layers. - Patterns on the LHS: Use of numpad idiom instead of number row (covering symbols, and function keys); symmetrical brackets, paretheses, and curly braces. - Use of the HJKL idiom for stuff like arrow keys, volume control, home/end. etc.
  - 3np 4y ago
    Ah, cheers. This is very close to what I have actually, using a custom mapping heavily inspired by miryoku on a 3x6+3. The reason I feel limited regardless is partly that even after giving it some time, it drove me nuts to have asymmetric layer keys (that is, I want to be able to activate the nav layer from either thumb), and some of the movements (notably pinky as a common modifier) ended up causing pain after a while. Plus I have need for at least another one due to often switching between a handful of languages and scripts (this would normally be addressed by AltGr - which would collide if at any a-z - plus an additional key only present on some standard layouts). So I feel a serious need for more thumb keys. And you somehow manage to get by with only two per side! Maybe I'll take another attempt at getting used to deduplicating the thumbs before I start looking at printing custom PCBs... At least Ergogen mentioned above should make that a lot easier if I go there.
    - rgoulter 4y ago
      Ah, I use 3+2 thumbkeys. (Tab, Esc, Space; Backspace, Enter). If I did have to go down to 2+2, I'd put Tab on an easy to access layer. That said, I think 2-3 is the number of thumb keys that are easy to reach. More than that, and it's harder for the thumb to reach, although allows access to more layers. -- Might as well put tap-hold modifiers on other keys, imo. (e.g. the outer column, or the lower row). Also.. yeah, Miryoku's layer-opposite-the-thumbkey is elegant, but if it's too restrictive for your usecase, no need to respect it. I'd think e.g. having access to navkeys on the LHS would suit both mouse+keyboard usage, as well as when you've got two hands on the keyboard.

plutonorm 4y ago

yeah, dipping your toe in this hobby is like dipping your toe into a triple A MMORPG. Make sure you are prepared for the toll it may take on your productive years.

mrtedbear 4y ago
100%. Going in I had no idea how all-consuming it would get.
- Enginerrrd 4y ago
  Same here, although once I'd spent an absurd amount of money and then even more time, I finally, settled on a really good setup and haven't had the desire to change it. IRIS keyboard (https://keeb.io/products/iris-rev-4-keyboard-split-ergonomic-keyboard https://keeb.io/products/iris-rev-4-keyboard-split-ergonomic...) with my own QMK keymap with 3 layers.
  - jrumbut 4y ago
    Oh wow that looks like what I'd want but it looks like they are selling a circuit board? How do I get one that I can pull out of the box and be typing within 60 seconds?
    - rgoulter 4y ago
      Keeb.io does list prebuilt, where the store owner would build it for you. https://keeb.io/collections/pre-built-keyboards/products/iris-keyboard-pre-built https://keeb.io/collections/pre-built-keyboards/products/iri... Pro'bly the most popular pre-built keyboard along the same lines is the Moonlander. https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ The configuration user experience would be nicer with this.
    - Aromasin 4y ago
      It's not precisely the same, but the ZSA Moonlander has the same layout with stilts and a wrist rest so that you can position it how you feel best. The real winner is their Oryx firmware that makes reprogramming the keys on the board a breeze. It's the best investment I've made in my ergonomic health.
      - wolrah 4y ago
        > The real winner is their Oryx firmware that makes reprogramming the keys on the board a breeze. It's the best investment I've made in my ergonomic health. As a Moonlander owner who loves it, it's worth pointing out that most QMK-based boards (including the Moonlander itself with a third party firmware) can support the VIA system for similar easy GUI programming. https://www.caniusevia.com/ https://www.caniusevia.com/
bergenty 4y ago
I don’t get it though. What’s the payoff, marginally better comfort and typing speed or is it like having collectibles to own and show off? Personally, sure a mechanical keyboard is a little more satisfying to type on but who really cares.
- least 4y ago
  There's another side to the mechanical keyboard community that is focused on ergonomics [1]. I personally use a Kinesis Advantage 2 [2] with an Adantage 360 [3] on preorder. These are not marginal improvements to my quality of life, they enable me to continue using a keyboard at all. As for the very expensive, mostly standard layout keyboards... it's an expensive hobby with marginal improvements at best, but the same could be said about furniture purchases. Most people don't choose furniture based solely off its functional characteristics. They want something pleasant to look at, especially since it's something they're using every day for a long period of time. I think there's plenty of utility in that, though personally I would never pay the prices that these people do. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ [2] https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/ [3] https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage360/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage360/
  - pca006132 4y ago
    Same, split keyboard (with thumb cluster) may take some time to get used to, but it does improve the QoL for me. The major problem with this is that either the keyboards are relatively expensive or you have to DIY. I'm looking to clone the moonlander keyboard but modify its layout to redox, and print it by myself. DIY can cut down a lot of the cost.
  - dalai 4y ago
    Would love to get one (actually any split one), but they are crazy expensive. Add duties (I’m in the EU) and it goes beyond what I would be willing to spend for something that I can’t even try first. I don’t even need mechanical switches, wireless, backlight or programmability, but I will probably need two of them in the end. DIY can lower the price, but it is a hustle and in the time needed is not free. Maybe at some point Logitech will offer a split one for a more reasonable price, but I won’t hold my breath.
nocman 4y ago
As I said in another part of this thread, I don't have any problem "dipping my toe in". It isn't difficult at all to enjoy using a good mechanical keyboard without becoming obsessed with it. My friends who use mechanical keyboards also don't have any problem with that kind of obsession. I guess it depends on the person.

Eji1700 4y ago

The keyboard hobby has led me to realize a few major things- 1. The capslock key should not be where it is. In no sane layout should such an easy to reach key serve such a niche purpose. 2. The spacebar is a massive waste of space. I LOVE split space layouts (typing on a mercutio right now). Having all 3 "spaces" act as space on tap helps, and makes it easy to hold for modifiers. 3. Having the numpad/arrow keys right under my right hand (arrows on jkli, numpad basically on jkl = 456, functions in the same layout) is SO much faster than having to move your hand to get to those kinds of keys. The navigation keys being at my fingertips is ESPECIALLY useful as a coder where using things like home/end/pgup/pgdown can really help you move through your code faster. I'm now at my end game (mercutio 40 on my "entertainment" machine, a crkbd at work (soon be be a cornish zen), and a discipline 60 for my gaming machine....seriously rougelikes are the only reason it's not all 40's), and it's been a hell of a path. I really hope the market expands a bit more because there's a lot of nice things when people start getting into the hobby, but it's a rough hobby to get into given how expensive it can get.

maigret 4y ago
Caps lock is where and how it is because its importance for typewriters. When you can’t change fonts, caps are important to realize hierarchy. I agree the contexts have now changed.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
cam_l 4y ago
I fully agree with 1 & 2 at least. So I remapped capslock with delete and space with enter. (Numpad is too thoroughly embedded in my head to move it.) Easier/lazier than building a new KB. Though it does present some issues when using other machines. And people thoroughly freak out if they jump on mine.
- austhrow743 4y ago
  You use enter more frequently than you use spaces?

nocman 4y ago

> The keyboard rabbit-hole gets pretty deep. Not for everyone. For years I have preferred keyboards with Cherry MX switches, but I just buy fairly inexpensive ones used. Not really a rabbit hole at all.

dwrowe 4y ago
That applies to basically any hobby though right? The perceived depth of the hobby is largely dependent on your desire to explore that depth. It can be incredibly deep for some, as evidenced by people designing their own switches - or shallow (for you) by saying Cherry is good enough.

thwoeruoi2343 4y ago

3np 4y ago

Would you share your keymap? Curious how you're able to get all the necessary characters without making wrist-twisting layer combos. Or are you uisng chording?

rgoulter 4y ago
One of the most popular layouts along these lines is the miryoku layout https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku To me the key concepts behind this are: - Home Row modifiers: putting Shift, Ctrl, Gui, Alt behind tap-hold functionality on the home row keys. (Now you don't need to strain your pinky finger with these, and can stay on the home row more). - More thumb keys, with layering using tap-hold. This brings Backspace, Enter, Esc, Tab to within reach of the thumb, and provides a bunch of layers. - Patterns on the LHS: Use of numpad idiom instead of number row (covering symbols, and function keys); symmetrical brackets, paretheses, and curly braces. - Use of the HJKL idiom for stuff like arrow keys, volume control, home/end. etc.
- 3np 4y ago
  Ah, cheers. This is very close to what I have actually, using a custom mapping heavily inspired by miryoku on a 3x6+3. The reason I feel limited regardless is partly that even after giving it some time, it drove me nuts to have asymmetric layer keys (that is, I want to be able to activate the nav layer from either thumb), and some of the movements (notably pinky as a common modifier) ended up causing pain after a while. Plus I have need for at least another one due to often switching between a handful of languages and scripts (this would normally be addressed by AltGr - which would collide if at any a-z - plus an additional key only present on some standard layouts). So I feel a serious need for more thumb keys. And you somehow manage to get by with only two per side! Maybe I'll take another attempt at getting used to deduplicating the thumbs before I start looking at printing custom PCBs... At least Ergogen mentioned above should make that a lot easier if I go there.
  - rgoulter 4y ago
    Ah, I use 3+2 thumbkeys. (Tab, Esc, Space; Backspace, Enter). If I did have to go down to 2+2, I'd put Tab on an easy to access layer. That said, I think 2-3 is the number of thumb keys that are easy to reach. More than that, and it's harder for the thumb to reach, although allows access to more layers. -- Might as well put tap-hold modifiers on other keys, imo. (e.g. the outer column, or the lower row). Also.. yeah, Miryoku's layer-opposite-the-thumbkey is elegant, but if it's too restrictive for your usecase, no need to respect it. I'd think e.g. having access to navkeys on the LHS would suit both mouse+keyboard usage, as well as when you've got two hands on the keyboard.