5 ms·

Plenty of countries, especially in Asia, but also the UAE and possibly others, have successfully stopped nearly all drug use and trade with heavy-handed policie

Plenty of countries, especially in Asia, but also the UAE and possibly others, have successfully stopped nearly all drug use and trade with heavy-handed policies. You may not like what it took to get done, but it did work. I'm not advocating for the heavy-handed approach, but it's intellectually dishonest to say that it can't work. Also, the other countries have done it with a much smaller imprisonment per capita.

standardUser 4y ago
It is intellectually dishonest to say drug prohibition can work in the United States. It has been tried and has failed comprehensively and over multiple generations. You are making a very different argument - that if the US was an entirely different type of society with a different government, culture and history, then this approach might work.
- akira2501 4y ago
  Do we honestly do prohibition though, or are we just running a treadmill for lower level offenders? I understand the desire to not needlessly arrest people, on the other hand, I think leaving them to their own devices so they can do drugs in campers illegally parked on the side of the street is no honestly solution either. I'm all for drug confiscation. If you're caught with drugs, we just take them and destroy them. No arrest and processing, just straight surrender of the illegal substance. Use this as an opportunity to enroll users into programs and get them off of their habits and back on their feet. Use the additional manpower to truly target those who import and traffic in these substances.
  - standardUser 4y ago
    So your grand solution is to... steal people's stuff? Frankly, it sounds like you've never really researched or grappled with this particular social issue. Or participated in it.
    - akira2501 4y ago
      You have no right to possess drugs. They are illegal. If you are arrested, do you get your drugs back when you're bonded out or even if the DA drops the charges against you? If not, how is this actually any different? Frankly, it sounds like you think this phenomenon is so unique that only a particular expert class is allowed to have opinions on it; and you're making wild guesses as to my experience in order to discount my opinion without actually putting forward the necessary arguments.
      - standardUser 4y ago
        "You have no right to possess drugs" That's the entire problem right there. It's also mostly untrue - with very few exceptions there are legal ways to possess an use lots of drugs, including cocaine for example. But drug possession should never be a crime. It is a wildly illiberal approach.
- Eupraxias 4y ago
  Think of it as a hypothetical: "Plenty of countries have solved the drug problem by eliminating their populations; it would be dishonest to say that it cannot be done". My preference is with a society that supports the freedom of the individual. One side-effect of that kind of society is that the unlucky and irresponsible are ill-protected. All told, I prefer that situation to an authoritarian, totalitarian, or fascist society. It's a calculus with numerous concessions on all sides. I suspect we're highly programmed to support the perspective that corresponds to our geographic origins, even though mine's the best.
superchroma 4y ago
It can't work. Prisons in places like Indonesia and the Philippines are objectively degrading and inhumane. That's not winning, and that's not a working system. That's focusing on one aspect of a greater whole at the expense of our humanity. America has had more than a fair go at a heavy handed anti-drug policy and it was and continues to be a spectacular failure. To sit here at the end of it and say that they didn't go hard enough, (particularly after horrific actions such as poisoning marijuana and therefore smokers with paraquat) is monstrous.
- etaioinshrdlu 4y ago
  I was thinking more about Japan, Singapore, China, Taiwan.
  - tluyben2 4y ago
    Outside Japan (I haven’t been there often enough to know), the others it’s definitely not true. It is easy to get, many people use, foreigners and natives. I got offered (I stick to beer) on many business meetings. It’s not so public probably, but what does that say?
    - superchroma 4y ago
      I was definitely under the impression that some american fentanyl is coming from china.
gregsadetsky 4y ago
Just to be clear, “heavy-handed policies” include the death penalty for trafficking in (at the very least) Singapore and the UAE. It would be intellectually dishonest to not name these things by name. This argument veers a little bit into “sure it’s harsh but their trains do run on time” territory, at least for me. What authoritarian countries are able to achieve at the cost of human rights would preferably not serve as inspiration, or even as a point of comparison.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  And "trafficking" is defined to include things like "possessing the amount of weed HN types by for themselves to get the bulk discount" not just "getting on a plane with bags of coke strapped to you.
- zx8080 4y ago
  Is it only me reading it as that trafficking is one of the human rights which needs to be protected?
yywwbbn 4y ago
Religious and social taboos might have helped as well. > have successfully stopped nearly all drug use and trade with heavy-handed policies. Like Indonesia for instance? It has one of the strictest drug laws in the world supposedly. Yet 70% of the people imprisoned in the country were convicted of drug related crimes. They had this policy for many years, yet this is what their president said a few years back: On July 21, 2017, Jokowi stated that Indonesia was in a state of emergency due to widespread drug use, consequently instructing law enforcement officers that “if [narcotics suspects] resist a little bit, just shoot them immediately.” Which would that their strict policies, far from having stopped nearly all drug trade and consumption, were a complete failure. Also around 2% of all people in the country are active drug users. > but it did work So no, it didn’t > but it’s intellectually dishonest to say that it can’t work Yes. Theoretically if you imprison or shot every drug user fast enough and your police force is not thoroughly corrupt it might work. Not sure both of these things can ever be compatible in practice, though. *https://ppid.bnn.go.id/konten/unggahan/2020/10/Drug-Abuse-Prevalence-Survey-2019.pdf https://ppid.bnn.go.id/konten/unggahan/2020/10/Drug-Abuse-Pr...
- tluyben2 4y ago
  > Also around 2% of all people in the country are active drug users. And where do they get that statistic… the reality will be higher I think.
tluyben2 4y ago
> Plenty of countries, especially in Asia, but also the UAE and possibly others, have successfully stopped nearly all drug use What nonsense is this? Countries with capital punishment on drugs like thailand, Philippines and singapore (and before malaysia who cancelled the death penalty but are still strict) are rife with dope; you can buy it everywhere; I mean it is literally shoved in your face on every corner. Which countries are you talking about? I been to many, I only drink (by the way; a dangerous, addictive harddrug; people tend to forget alcohol as drug), but I got offered everywhere, all the time. And there are many native users, you can see them all over the place. UAE I don't know; I would never go there.

standardUser 4y ago

It is intellectually dishonest to say drug prohibition can work in the United States. It has been tried and has failed comprehensively and over multiple generations. You are making a very different argument - that if the US was an entirely different type of society with a different government, culture and history, then this approach might work.

akira2501 4y ago
Do we honestly do prohibition though, or are we just running a treadmill for lower level offenders? I understand the desire to not needlessly arrest people, on the other hand, I think leaving them to their own devices so they can do drugs in campers illegally parked on the side of the street is no honestly solution either. I'm all for drug confiscation. If you're caught with drugs, we just take them and destroy them. No arrest and processing, just straight surrender of the illegal substance. Use this as an opportunity to enroll users into programs and get them off of their habits and back on their feet. Use the additional manpower to truly target those who import and traffic in these substances.
- standardUser 4y ago
  So your grand solution is to... steal people's stuff? Frankly, it sounds like you've never really researched or grappled with this particular social issue. Or participated in it.
  - akira2501 4y ago
    You have no right to possess drugs. They are illegal. If you are arrested, do you get your drugs back when you're bonded out or even if the DA drops the charges against you? If not, how is this actually any different? Frankly, it sounds like you think this phenomenon is so unique that only a particular expert class is allowed to have opinions on it; and you're making wild guesses as to my experience in order to discount my opinion without actually putting forward the necessary arguments.
    - standardUser 4y ago
      "You have no right to possess drugs" That's the entire problem right there. It's also mostly untrue - with very few exceptions there are legal ways to possess an use lots of drugs, including cocaine for example. But drug possession should never be a crime. It is a wildly illiberal approach.
Eupraxias 4y ago
Think of it as a hypothetical: "Plenty of countries have solved the drug problem by eliminating their populations; it would be dishonest to say that it cannot be done". My preference is with a society that supports the freedom of the individual. One side-effect of that kind of society is that the unlucky and irresponsible are ill-protected. All told, I prefer that situation to an authoritarian, totalitarian, or fascist society. It's a calculus with numerous concessions on all sides. I suspect we're highly programmed to support the perspective that corresponds to our geographic origins, even though mine's the best.

superchroma 4y ago

It can't work. Prisons in places like Indonesia and the Philippines are objectively degrading and inhumane. That's not winning, and that's not a working system. That's focusing on one aspect of a greater whole at the expense of our humanity. America has had more than a fair go at a heavy handed anti-drug policy and it was and continues to be a spectacular failure. To sit here at the end of it and say that they didn't go hard enough, (particularly after horrific actions such as poisoning marijuana and therefore smokers with paraquat) is monstrous.

etaioinshrdlu 4y ago
I was thinking more about Japan, Singapore, China, Taiwan.
- tluyben2 4y ago
  Outside Japan (I haven’t been there often enough to know), the others it’s definitely not true. It is easy to get, many people use, foreigners and natives. I got offered (I stick to beer) on many business meetings. It’s not so public probably, but what does that say?
  - superchroma 4y ago
    I was definitely under the impression that some american fentanyl is coming from china.

gregsadetsky 4y ago

Just to be clear, “heavy-handed policies” include the death penalty for trafficking in (at the very least) Singapore and the UAE. It would be intellectually dishonest to not name these things by name. This argument veers a little bit into “sure it’s harsh but their trains do run on time” territory, at least for me. What authoritarian countries are able to achieve at the cost of human rights would preferably not serve as inspiration, or even as a point of comparison.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
And "trafficking" is defined to include things like "possessing the amount of weed HN types by for themselves to get the bulk discount" not just "getting on a plane with bags of coke strapped to you.
zx8080 4y ago
Is it only me reading it as that trafficking is one of the human rights which needs to be protected?

yywwbbn 4y ago

Religious and social taboos might have helped as well. > have successfully stopped nearly all drug use and trade with heavy-handed policies. Like Indonesia for instance? It has one of the strictest drug laws in the world supposedly. Yet 70% of the people imprisoned in the country were convicted of drug related crimes. They had this policy for many years, yet this is what their president said a few years back: On July 21, 2017, Jokowi stated that Indonesia was in a state of emergency due to widespread drug use, consequently instructing law enforcement officers that “if [narcotics suspects] resist a little bit, just shoot them immediately.” Which would that their strict policies, far from having stopped nearly all drug trade and consumption, were a complete failure. Also around 2% of all people in the country are active drug users. > but it did work So no, it didn’t > but it’s intellectually dishonest to say that it can’t work Yes. Theoretically if you imprison or shot every drug user fast enough and your police force is not thoroughly corrupt it might work. Not sure both of these things can ever be compatible in practice, though. *https://ppid.bnn.go.id/konten/unggahan/2020/10/Drug-Abuse-Prevalence-Survey-2019.pdf https://ppid.bnn.go.id/konten/unggahan/2020/10/Drug-Abuse-Pr...

tluyben2 4y ago
> Also around 2% of all people in the country are active drug users. And where do they get that statistic… the reality will be higher I think.

tluyben2 4y ago

> Plenty of countries, especially in Asia, but also the UAE and possibly others, have successfully stopped nearly all drug use What nonsense is this? Countries with capital punishment on drugs like thailand, Philippines and singapore (and before malaysia who cancelled the death penalty but are still strict) are rife with dope; you can buy it everywhere; I mean it is literally shoved in your face on every corner. Which countries are you talking about? I been to many, I only drink (by the way; a dangerous, addictive harddrug; people tend to forget alcohol as drug), but I got offered everywhere, all the time. And there are many native users, you can see them all over the place. UAE I don't know; I would never go there.