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What drives me absolutely insane about stories like this is that so many of the people suffering under these policies are guilty of little more than market part
by standardUser 4y ago
What drives me absolutely insane about stories like this is that so many of the people suffering under these policies are guilty of little more than market participation. The government strains, at extraordinary expense, to pretend they can stop drugs from being made, bought and sold, but they can't. They simply can't. Countless laws, countless billions of dollars and countless ruined lives later, drugs are no less popular or accessible than they ever were in the past. The government gave it their best shot, failed in spectacular fashion over generations, and anyone who still supports this approach is either hopelessly brainwashed or, maybe, just not very smart.
- shakezula 4y agoMost of the time, supporters of these laws aren't brainwashed or stupid. They just prefer the status quo that these laws uphold, which tends to overlay nearly perfectly with class lines.
- yeeyeeyee 4y ago>Supporters say the collections are a legitimate way for states to recoup millions of taxpayer dollars spent on prisons and jails. Wait there are supporters of this? You're telling me if I asked 100 people on the street, there'd be someone that said "oh yeah this is a pretty fair and reasonable law to charge the inmates 5-star hotel prices"??
- rzazueta 4y agoDepends on how you ask the question. "Is it fair to incarcerate individuals for their preference of intoxicant in a free and liberal democracy?" "Should drug users and other junkies be taken off the streets to keep them safe for the rest of us?"
- yeeyeeyee 4y agoThat's not my question. There's exactly one way to ask my question. "Do you think prisoners should be charged $250/night for their incarceration?"
- t-writescode 4y agoOh there’s plenty of other ways you can ask it. “Should prisoners pay the price of their stay in prison, including room, board, food and security?”
- MichaelCollins 4y ago> You're telling me if I asked 100 people on the street, Confronting people on the street with questions like this won't give you a representative sample of what people really think. The sort of people who support the system to maintain their class/lifestyle are likely to ignore your question or to perceive your activist intent and lie to you to avoid getting sucker punched by the 'crazy person on the street.'
- voisin 4y agoI think the poster was making the point of doing a survey. Perhaps not set on the actual method of that survey.
- yeeyeeyee 4y agoYep, I meant #2 from https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/on_the_street https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/on_the_street Idioms are hard! Want to apologize on behalf of the English language.
- Jcowell 4y agoIn America ? Yes. I’m willing to bet a good part of the reason why our prisons they way they are is because many see it as a means of revenge and not rehabilitation. No one cares if a rapist or pedo is saddled with debt , much less of they leave out of there alive.
- throwaway0a5e 4y agoBased on the comments in the "NYC is owed a bajillion dollars in parking tickets" thread from a couple days ago I bet you could get an easy dozen if you just dropped the phrase "five star hotel prices". People are strongly in favor of harsh punishments for the type of crimes they don't ever see themselves committing, like not paying a ticket apparently.
- bobthepanda 4y agoThe NYC parking tickets thing has a few other dimensions, like the fact that the worst scofflaws are actually the diplomatic corps of other countries (there for the UN) that claim immunity to avoid having to pay the tickets. So not only do you get to bash elites, they’re other country’s elites and not countries that the US has warm relations with. There was actually a sigh of relief in many circles when New York lost the 2012 Olympics bid, because many people did not see the benefit of holding the games being worth the massive headaches of infrastructure overload.
- greedo 4y agoDon't forget the members of New York's finest; the NYPD is well known for abusing parking on a consistent basis.
- DisjointedHunt 4y agoIt’s insane. Prison conditions in the US are infamous for the degrading of the human experience to a point of no return. Open rape culture, radicalization, utterly despicable behavior that even barbarians would shiver at openly covered in popular culture as fact. As someone who grew up outside the US, it is truly astonishing how fucked up the system is.
- selectodude 4y agoThat’s pretty normal for prison culture worldwide. US prisons are far less inhumane than, say, France.
- trasz 4y agoFrench prisons use slave labour?
- selectodude 4y agoOui.
- trasz 4y agoCan you give me some reference, or a keyword? I can’t find much about it; what I found is that they can work and get paid, but I didn’t find anything about being forced to.
- shakezula 4y agoThis is a problem of Stated preference vs. Revealed preference. You ask them what they think and they'd tell you "that's awful, I can't believe that, that's so unfair" but you put them up on the ballot at the midterms and get them to repeal it and all of a sudden it's about being "tough on crime" and "keeping our streets clean".
- bobthepanda 4y agoAlso, prisons are often located in depressed small town as a stable source of government jobs. Those people don’t want to go back to being in a depressed economy. The most extreme example of this is that the site of the 1970 Lake Placid Winter Olympics was designed to be used post games as a prison, which it is today.
- candiodari 4y agoNot really, you are assuming the people vote on a lot of decisions, which is not true. This is a problem related to permanence of executive power. The "cardinal Richelieu" problem (You know that while the government changes, he is above the government and stays. Most of the executive does not change at all when power changes hands at the legislative level). Ever notice that executive power is the same everywhere? They think the laws are unfair to them, because they have to implement totally unrealistic laws, and get blamed harshly for "small" problems (you know, "harshly" except it doesn't carry any consequences for them, except, at best loss of face). They respond by not following laws, refusing even to implement judicial directives and the like. Their own (sometimes personal) interest, for them, trumps laws and the directives of judges. They have largely made sure their names are never revealed to the people they serve, as they no longer have the support of the people, and they feel they cannot be replaced.
- superchroma 4y agoYes. Americans are often selfish, savage and cruel. Not all of them, but enough.
- yeeyeeyee 4y ago>Americans are often selfish, savage and cruel. Sorry but wtf?! Read Manufacturing Consent. Don't demonize us. We're not down with this shit.
- superchroma 4y agoMany are, particularly conservatives. Many aren't, and, well, that's good, but there's a significant enough majority who are and so the status quo prevails.
- smabie 4y agoWhat 5-star hotel costs $250/day? I want to go there
- impossiblefork 4y agoThere's a bunch in the Canary Islands, with prices like that or below. Even one on Fuertaventura for 200 USD per night. I haven't been to them, so I can't say whether they're up to the level one would expect, but they're listed as five star hotels.
- dotancohen 4y agoIs that not implicit in democracy? Things are the way they are, because the People willed it as such? The actual mechanism probably has many more links including the voting of politicians who share the People's values, who then pass laws in the People's interest. But the underlying axiom of democracy is rule of the People, indirect as the American implementation is, is it not?
- rzazueta 4y agoOr creates and reinforces those class lines.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- InCityDreams 4y agoGovernment[s]- plural, and international (though some are more progressive than others).
- standardUser 4y agoVery true, though the US had an outsized role in convincing other governments to enact zero-tolerance drug laws under multiple UN conventions. It's only in the last 20 years we've seen nations willing to buck the trend.
- tmpz22 4y agoThere are over 2 MILLION prisoners in the US prison population of a population of 330M. This gives the USA the highest incarceration rate of any country in the world. The next four? * Rwanda * Turkmenistan * El Salvador * Cuba [1]: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/incarceration-rates-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/incarcera...
- wizofaus 4y agoNot clear how that's relevant to the comment you were replying to, unless you're suggesting that being jailed for minor controlled substance offenses is far more common in the US than the many other developed countries with similar laws?
- eptcyka 4y agoIt is far more common to be jailed in the US for minor controlled substances than in many other developed countries.
- metadat 4y agoCorrect. It's a statistic many people are not aware of. Additionally, if you look at the racial breakdown of who's incarcerated in the USA, it's disproportionately black relative to number of blacks per capita residing in the country. Blacks are incarcerated at 5x the rate of whites, and make up 40% of all incarcerated individuals. This is insane.
- wizofaus 4y agoSadly it's even worse in Australia, where it's closer to 10x the rate for indigenous vs non-indigenous. I'd be horrified to find out they were expected to pay for their time behind bars though.
- culi 4y agoAlso important to note that indigenous people in the US are also often disproportionately affect by these policies. Oftentimes at even higher rates than Black Americans
- pydry 4y agoIf you assume that the original intent was to find the most socially acceptable way to criminalize minorities and "social undesirables" (e.g. hippies) and go all in on it, it makes a lot more sense.
- zozbot234 4y agoYou might assume that, but it would be a questionable assumption. Opium was banned in China (where is was used by ordinary denizens of that country, not minorities) well before the West followed suit.
- standardUser 4y agoAssumptions aren't needed as there is a well-documented history of the US using drug laws to attack certain minority groups. That's not the end all, be all of drug laws (in my opinion) but it is an important part of the history of drug prohibition.
- DisjointedHunt 4y agoSwap “drugs” for “guns” and you’d have the majority of HN flip out. The Government isn’t a magical entity of absolute perfection. Large classes of banned substances are indeed banned for good reason. Their effects on individual/societal well being documented quite heavily. Two things can be true at the same time: 1. Some substances that are detrimental to human health need to be controlled. 2. The US government and its present approach to enforcing laws is equally harmful and needs a complete overhaul.
- mrkurt 4y agoYou can really only swap drugs for guns if gun related imprisonment is high. Are there are lot of people in prison for illegal gun possession / dealing?
- throwaway0a5e 4y agoAre there are lot of people in prison for illegal gun possession / dealing? Yes. Tons of petty criminals and low level nonviolent felons are behind bars because whatever they were doing it they did it while packing heat or had a gun in their possession when their door got kicked in. Packing while committing some other crime is a felony by itself in many places and in the case of federal crimes (e.g. drug trafficking) a multiplicative effect on your max sentence and raises the minimum by a ton. Many/most states also have laws that copy the federal law. This is why why drug dealers who've made it big pay someone else to pack for them and/or store their product as soon as their business can support that.
- rzazueta 4y ago> 1. Some substances that are detrimental to human health need to be controlled. I'd rather the law be more around information than control. If one believes in the idea of freedom and liberty in the US, then one should support a model where individuals are allowed to make their own decisions, but ensure the facts around such substances are well researched and publicized. Alcohol kills, and yet is not actually very well controlled at all. Marijuana doesn't kill anyone directly, and yet the lies told about it has kept it tightly controlled, even as the real facts continue to come out. I don't believe the government really has any obligation to keep us safe from our own poor decisions, assuming those poor decisions can be argued to be have been informed using truthful information.
- xfitm3 4y agoPortugal is an excellent role model, there are numerous studies on their approach to drugs[0]. While I am not an expert on the subject the model is morally appealing to me, and I believe public order is maintained. Begin researching on your own if you're interested in this subject. I feel for anyone who loves a drug user. Separately I just learned fentanyl test strips are not legal in all 50 states. Given that fentanyl is a leading cause of death, giving access to test strips can save lives. I don't know how heavily this law is enforced, but it's a great example of cutting your nose to spite your face. To me it's a litmus test that reinforces the notion the USA's stance on drugs was never about harm reduction. [0] https://substanceabusepolicy.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13011-021-00394-7 https://substanceabusepolicy.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1...
- etaioinshrdlu 4y agoPlenty of countries, especially in Asia, but also the UAE and possibly others, have successfully stopped nearly all drug use and trade with heavy-handed policies. You may not like what it took to get done, but it did work. I'm not advocating for the heavy-handed approach, but it's intellectually dishonest to say that it can't work. Also, the other countries have done it with a much smaller imprisonment per capita.
- standardUser 4y agoIt is intellectually dishonest to say drug prohibition can work in the United States. It has been tried and has failed comprehensively and over multiple generations. You are making a very different argument - that if the US was an entirely different type of society with a different government, culture and history, then this approach might work.
- akira2501 4y agoDo we honestly do prohibition though, or are we just running a treadmill for lower level offenders? I understand the desire to not needlessly arrest people, on the other hand, I think leaving them to their own devices so they can do drugs in campers illegally parked on the side of the street is no honestly solution either. I'm all for drug confiscation. If you're caught with drugs, we just take them and destroy them. No arrest and processing, just straight surrender of the illegal substance. Use this as an opportunity to enroll users into programs and get them off of their habits and back on their feet. Use the additional manpower to truly target those who import and traffic in these substances.
- standardUser 4y agoSo your grand solution is to... steal people's stuff? Frankly, it sounds like you've never really researched or grappled with this particular social issue. Or participated in it.
- akira2501 4y ago
- erdos4d 4y agoLook at how many people will lose their jobs if this shuts down. The people who support this are often just happy to see minorities and poor people get fucked if it means their stupid brother in law stays on at the local prison. They view these people as human waste, so they don't care how much they get hurt, as long as their people are getting something out of it. Trying to stop this means figuring out how to unfuck these people's mentality. That is even harder than stopping drugs.
- rileymat2 4y agoI am not sure how you are judging the effectiveness of the prohibition? With the legalization of marijuana consumption has gone up. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/07/220719162133.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/07/220719162133.h... So to say they failed is not fact, very few laws eliminate the act that is illegal. Murder happens despite being illegal, and will continue to. I would agree the cost is too high, that the policy is wrong, but it is pretty clear the illegality reduces consumption.
- akudha 4y agoMurder happens despite being illegal, and will continue to I don’t understand how you can compare murder with drug use (or even selling drugs). Nobody says “let me try murder today and see if I like it” but plenty of people say (and do) “let me try drugs for fun today and see if I like it”. Not all illegal activities are the same.
- rileymat2 4y agoIt is a response to: > The government strains, at extraordinary expense, to pretend they can stop drugs from being made, bought and sold, but they can't. My point is that whether or not something still happens once illegal does not have much bearing on whether it should remain so. Nor does it signal failure of the policy as long as there is reduction. Because marijuana being illegal did reduce the production, and consumption.
- standardUser 4y agoDid it? You're relying on surveys on people self-reporting illegal activity and comparing it to post-legalization data. There is a lot to think about in regards to these issues and I suggest you maybe read up on it some more if you are interested. In the meantime, before legalization, weed only become stronger and more readily available. Many teenagers could get it more easily than booze. That was with the government at all levels doing everything it could to stop marijuana use. With many ruined lives of otherwise free people coming with those polices.
- nightski 4y agoThen why are the places with the least restrictive drug laws arguably where the problem is the worst by a large margin? If these laws don't work at all. Not saying I fully support them or anything, I am just curious what your thoughts are.
- kettro 4y agoI would consider flipping causality. I think those places, typically cities and ports, are disposed to having larger drug populations, be that from abundance of supply or some other factor. Then, those places end up passing lenient laws as a result of the problem, and instead cope via non-criminal programs like safe injection sites. It’s not like Vancouver or SF decided first to have safe injection sites, and then suddenly had huge heroin problems.
- trasz 4y agoMany of people incarcerated in US are there for no crime at all: https://twitter.com/equalityAlec/status/1562849803297366017 https://twitter.com/equalityAlec/status/1562849803297366017.
- TomSwirly 4y ago> The government strains, at extraordinary expense, to pretend they can stop drugs from being made, bought and sold, but they can't. Sure they could. They just don't try because the current system is very very good for them. Other countries like Portugal and the Netherlands have done a fantastic job on lowering their drug use rate dramatically. And it's very simple - they treat drug consumption as a medical problem, first and foremost. Possessing drugs, any drugs, for your own personal consumption is _not_ a crime in either place. Indeed, both countries go out of their way to provide facilities for addicts where they can safely take their drug and get medical treatment and counseling with no fear of being arrested. ---- If the United States wanted to end the drug war, they could simply look at the examples that worked and copied them. But they are much more interested in oppressing hapless addicts and jailing them.