8 ms·

I think any English speaker could tell you the difference between “the” and “a”. Even if it’s not in their immediate knowledge bank as a fact, they could think

I think any English speaker could tell you the difference between “the” and “a”. Even if it’s not in their immediate knowledge bank as a fact, they could think of a tiny set of examples and work it out immediately.

jhanschoo 4y ago
This is really not true of many ESL speakers whose first language does not have articles.
rjh29 4y ago
I've been teaching the vs. a vs. no particle at all (e.g. 'I go to church') and it's a lot more complicated than you think. There are many edge cases. Native speakers know exactly which one is correct, but cannot always explain why.
- noduerme 4y ago
  Really? "The" is used when the listener knows which one you're talking about, or if there's only one. "A" is used when it's not known or not important which specific one you're referring to. What's an example that deviates from that framework? [edit] "I go to Church" works because Church is a proper noun when used in that sentence (and it's only used as a proper noun by devout Christians). Properly they mean "I go to [the/a] church", and the reason they leave out the particle is that they mean "THE CHURCH" but they want to sound humble, so they can't say that; but they also can't say "I go to a church," because that would be denying that the church they go to is the One True Church. That's why they don't use a particle in that particular phrase. The proper particle is "a", and "church" shouldn't be capitalized. [edit2] this is not an attempt to start a religious flame war. I'm just commenting on the grammar. [edit3] Just to demonstrate the proper noun thing I'm referring to, Jews "go to Temple" (capitalized, proper noun), or go to a temple, but they don't "go to temple".
  - tominous 4y ago
    As a native speaker of English, I didn't know about mass nouns until I was an adult and I was trying to explain to a non-native speaker that they were using "the" too much.
  - itsthejb 4y ago
    “I went to THE post office”, “I went to THE train station”. These are typically used without context, and are exceptions that confuse learners, particularly those who are learning about articles for the first time. Regarding “I go to Church”, the verb to go here doesn’t actually mean movement, it’s a euphemism for “I worship”. Same with “temple”. If you say “I go to a/the church” you are actually stating movement towards a definite or indefinite place. Again, these are challenging subtleties for language speakers where all nouns are conceptual. And most native speakers can’t explain these exceptions spontaneously
    - nourwrong 4y ago
      I go to school.
      - chrischen 4y ago
        I think school is in the same class as “work.”
    - Izkata 4y ago
      > “I went to THE post office”, “I went to THE train station”. In my hometown: There's only 1 of each and wouldn't be confusing. Where I live now: Which one? These don't refute GP's definition, your examples are just missing the shared context that determines whether it's correct or not.
      - cecilpl2 4y ago
        I think definiteness doesn't need to be a shared context. "I went to the the train station to pick up a map on my way here". "Great, thanks!" It was a specific train station that I chose intentionally or visit regularly, but it's not relevant to the conversation which one. If I were to use "a train station" then it implies I didn't care which train station it was.
  - selimthegrim 4y ago
    I wonder if “hospital” behaves the same way in some countries due to religious roots
    - hinoki 4y ago
      In American English, people are in the hospital, but in UK English people are in hospital. So it only behaves that way in some Englishes.
  - nourwrong 4y ago
  - grapeskin 4y ago
    Then you have “I go home”, which drops not only “the” but “to”. Religious in nature? No. This was some truly bizarre reasoning based off one example and it has zero actual foundation in language. One of the strangest comments I’ve ever seen on HN.
  - Tainnor 4y ago
    If you try to translate from one language with a definite/indefinite article distinction to another (say English to German or Spanish), you'll notice that in many edge cases, one language uses a different article than the other (or one of them uses no article, while the other does). The "I go to Church" example, is a case in point. In both German and Spanish, a definite article is required. That shows that, while there is a systematic difference between "a" and "the", it breaks down in many edge cases.
  - tragomaskhalos 4y ago
    It isn't that simple, unfortunately for learners of English. One example would be "Shall we go to the pub?" (British usage at least): No specific pub is intended, so a learner would expect 'a pub'. The only sure-fire way to grasp the subtleties of articles (or lack thereof in phrases like "go to school") in English is via immersion, as any rule system is going to fall foul of idiomatic exceptions. To bring this back to Japanese, I feel the same about 'wa' vs 'ga', it's best just to develop a feel for the distiction.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - jcranmer 4y ago
    > "I go to Church" works because Church is a proper noun when used in that sentence (and it's only used as a proper noun by devout Christians). You're definitely wrong here, because "I go to school" and "I go to work" are equally grammatical statements, and there is no way to construe those as involving proper nouns. You can also see this construction with words like bed or the various mealtimes. The commonality I can derive from these various examples is something along the lines of "state of being," although I find that a poor descriptor. This kind of formation is limited to relatively few locations (you can't say "I go to mall" for example), but for everything I can think up, you can also use the word sans determiner in other circumstances ("College has gotten expensive as of late," for example).
- ahmadmijot 4y ago
  True. Currently I'm in the stage of writing my thesis. Grammar is hard. I know and learnt about the vs a vs no particle but I'm still struggling when to use any of them. (And then there's US Eng vs UK Eng...)
- lelandfe 4y ago
  A Dutch friend of mine, who speaks great English, tried to impress me by mentioning her musician friend studied at "the conservatory." She was baffled when I replied that I hadn't heard of The Conservatory before. It took us minutes to understand she meant a conservatory: they studied at a music school. I agree that it's more complex than native speakers realize.
  - Tijdreiziger 4y ago
    Wow, that's interesting. In Dutch you would definitely use an article in that sentence: ze heeft op/aan het conservatorium gestudeerd - she studied at (the) conservatory hij heeft op/aan het hbo/de universiteit gestudeerd - he studied at (the) college/university
    - lelandfe 4y ago
      I’ll send this to her! Would love to know how her mental translation arrived there.
  - SilasX 4y ago
    Eh ... I don't see how that's an different from the common English idiom of saying you went to "the store", which actually always irks me too, since people say it even when it lacks context that would make it definite. If anything, the problem is that she's doing that same thing there.
    - brigandish 4y ago
      It's because the alternative is "I went to a store" which only invites unnecessary questions and isn't relevant to the conversation or will become clear so the indicates that, much like ある人 in Japanese means "someone in particular but I'm not going to mention the name because it's pointless to what I'm telling you and it'll just bog us down if I bring it up but it was someone definite", much like the store.
      - SilasX 4y ago
- cshimmin 4y ago
  I think a really good example of this is adjective precedence. For example, any native speaker immediately knows "wooden nice green big house" is wrong, and they also immediately know that "nice big green wooden house" is the correct ordering. Good luck explaining why.
  - aikinai 4y ago
    Wow, that’s a really good one! I’ve never thought about that.
  - nopinsight 4y ago
    Here's my own theory on this. The English adjective order does have some logic to it. opinion, size, age, shape, color, origin, material, purpose The adjective closer to noun tends to describe something more like an 'essence' of the noun. Changing the purpose adjective, eg 'savings account' to 'checking account', is more fundamental than changing other kinds of adjectives. The opinion adjectives are the most superficial and most fickle among them. I haven't tested this extensively enough. Your thoughts and counterexamples welcomed!
- nopinsight 4y ago
  I agree it's pretty complicated. Although the general principle of 'definiteness' covers many/most cases, it is far from complete. I found this page by the British Council to be quite comprehensive, but may still miss something (eg. 'go to school' vs 'go to the school') https://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/grammar/english-grammar-reference/the-definite-article-the https://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/grammar/english-gram... Do you know of some other resources that explain many grammatical points well?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bane 4y ago
English speakers across dialects can't even agree on how to use "the", "a" and no particle. I went to hospital. I went to the hospital.
- thfuran 4y ago
  >I went to hospital Where would that be standard?
  - brigandish 4y ago
    England.
    - collinvandyck76 4y ago
      Similar to "I went to university" and so on.
wizofaus 4y ago
I dunno - there after plenty of cases we use "the" despite it not referring to a known single instance of something. "The thing is..." or "what's the matter" or even "I've got the flu". Good luck trying to explain to Japanese speakers especially why "a dinner" or "go to a hospital" don't sound natural but "I'll have a beer" or "a few friends" are fine. And why is it "once upon a time" but "most of the time"...

jhanschoo 4y ago

This is really not true of many ESL speakers whose first language does not have articles.

rjh29 4y ago

I've been teaching the vs. a vs. no particle at all (e.g. 'I go to church') and it's a lot more complicated than you think. There are many edge cases. Native speakers know exactly which one is correct, but cannot always explain why.

noduerme 4y ago
Really? "The" is used when the listener knows which one you're talking about, or if there's only one. "A" is used when it's not known or not important which specific one you're referring to. What's an example that deviates from that framework? [edit] "I go to Church" works because Church is a proper noun when used in that sentence (and it's only used as a proper noun by devout Christians). Properly they mean "I go to [the/a] church", and the reason they leave out the particle is that they mean "THE CHURCH" but they want to sound humble, so they can't say that; but they also can't say "I go to a church," because that would be denying that the church they go to is the One True Church. That's why they don't use a particle in that particular phrase. The proper particle is "a", and "church" shouldn't be capitalized. [edit2] this is not an attempt to start a religious flame war. I'm just commenting on the grammar. [edit3] Just to demonstrate the proper noun thing I'm referring to, Jews "go to Temple" (capitalized, proper noun), or go to a temple, but they don't "go to temple".
- tominous 4y ago
  As a native speaker of English, I didn't know about mass nouns until I was an adult and I was trying to explain to a non-native speaker that they were using "the" too much.
- itsthejb 4y ago
  “I went to THE post office”, “I went to THE train station”. These are typically used without context, and are exceptions that confuse learners, particularly those who are learning about articles for the first time. Regarding “I go to Church”, the verb to go here doesn’t actually mean movement, it’s a euphemism for “I worship”. Same with “temple”. If you say “I go to a/the church” you are actually stating movement towards a definite or indefinite place. Again, these are challenging subtleties for language speakers where all nouns are conceptual. And most native speakers can’t explain these exceptions spontaneously
  - nourwrong 4y ago
    I go to school.
    - chrischen 4y ago
      I think school is in the same class as “work.”
  - Izkata 4y ago
    > “I went to THE post office”, “I went to THE train station”. In my hometown: There's only 1 of each and wouldn't be confusing. Where I live now: Which one? These don't refute GP's definition, your examples are just missing the shared context that determines whether it's correct or not.
    - cecilpl2 4y ago
      I think definiteness doesn't need to be a shared context. "I went to the the train station to pick up a map on my way here". "Great, thanks!" It was a specific train station that I chose intentionally or visit regularly, but it's not relevant to the conversation which one. If I were to use "a train station" then it implies I didn't care which train station it was.
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  I wonder if “hospital” behaves the same way in some countries due to religious roots
  - hinoki 4y ago
    In American English, people are in the hospital, but in UK English people are in hospital. So it only behaves that way in some Englishes.
- nourwrong 4y ago
- grapeskin 4y ago
  Then you have “I go home”, which drops not only “the” but “to”. Religious in nature? No. This was some truly bizarre reasoning based off one example and it has zero actual foundation in language. One of the strangest comments I’ve ever seen on HN.
- Tainnor 4y ago
  If you try to translate from one language with a definite/indefinite article distinction to another (say English to German or Spanish), you'll notice that in many edge cases, one language uses a different article than the other (or one of them uses no article, while the other does). The "I go to Church" example, is a case in point. In both German and Spanish, a definite article is required. That shows that, while there is a systematic difference between "a" and "the", it breaks down in many edge cases.
- tragomaskhalos 4y ago
  It isn't that simple, unfortunately for learners of English. One example would be "Shall we go to the pub?" (British usage at least): No specific pub is intended, so a learner would expect 'a pub'. The only sure-fire way to grasp the subtleties of articles (or lack thereof in phrases like "go to school") in English is via immersion, as any rule system is going to fall foul of idiomatic exceptions. To bring this back to Japanese, I feel the same about 'wa' vs 'ga', it's best just to develop a feel for the distiction.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jcranmer 4y ago
  > "I go to Church" works because Church is a proper noun when used in that sentence (and it's only used as a proper noun by devout Christians). You're definitely wrong here, because "I go to school" and "I go to work" are equally grammatical statements, and there is no way to construe those as involving proper nouns. You can also see this construction with words like bed or the various mealtimes. The commonality I can derive from these various examples is something along the lines of "state of being," although I find that a poor descriptor. This kind of formation is limited to relatively few locations (you can't say "I go to mall" for example), but for everything I can think up, you can also use the word sans determiner in other circumstances ("College has gotten expensive as of late," for example).
ahmadmijot 4y ago
True. Currently I'm in the stage of writing my thesis. Grammar is hard. I know and learnt about the vs a vs no particle but I'm still struggling when to use any of them. (And then there's US Eng vs UK Eng...)
lelandfe 4y ago
A Dutch friend of mine, who speaks great English, tried to impress me by mentioning her musician friend studied at "the conservatory." She was baffled when I replied that I hadn't heard of The Conservatory before. It took us minutes to understand she meant a conservatory: they studied at a music school. I agree that it's more complex than native speakers realize.
- Tijdreiziger 4y ago
  Wow, that's interesting. In Dutch you would definitely use an article in that sentence: ze heeft op/aan het conservatorium gestudeerd - she studied at (the) conservatory hij heeft op/aan het hbo/de universiteit gestudeerd - he studied at (the) college/university
  - lelandfe 4y ago
    I’ll send this to her! Would love to know how her mental translation arrived there.
- SilasX 4y ago
  Eh ... I don't see how that's an different from the common English idiom of saying you went to "the store", which actually always irks me too, since people say it even when it lacks context that would make it definite. If anything, the problem is that she's doing that same thing there.
  - brigandish 4y ago
    It's because the alternative is "I went to a store" which only invites unnecessary questions and isn't relevant to the conversation or will become clear so the indicates that, much like ある人 in Japanese means "someone in particular but I'm not going to mention the name because it's pointless to what I'm telling you and it'll just bog us down if I bring it up but it was someone definite", much like the store.
    - SilasX 4y ago
cshimmin 4y ago
I think a really good example of this is adjective precedence. For example, any native speaker immediately knows "wooden nice green big house" is wrong, and they also immediately know that "nice big green wooden house" is the correct ordering. Good luck explaining why.
- aikinai 4y ago
  Wow, that’s a really good one! I’ve never thought about that.
- nopinsight 4y ago
  Here's my own theory on this. The English adjective order does have some logic to it. opinion, size, age, shape, color, origin, material, purpose The adjective closer to noun tends to describe something more like an 'essence' of the noun. Changing the purpose adjective, eg 'savings account' to 'checking account', is more fundamental than changing other kinds of adjectives. The opinion adjectives are the most superficial and most fickle among them. I haven't tested this extensively enough. Your thoughts and counterexamples welcomed!
nopinsight 4y ago
I agree it's pretty complicated. Although the general principle of 'definiteness' covers many/most cases, it is far from complete. I found this page by the British Council to be quite comprehensive, but may still miss something (eg. 'go to school' vs 'go to the school') https://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/grammar/english-grammar-reference/the-definite-article-the https://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/grammar/english-gram... Do you know of some other resources that explain many grammatical points well?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bane 4y ago

English speakers across dialects can't even agree on how to use "the", "a" and no particle. I went to hospital. I went to the hospital.

thfuran 4y ago
>I went to hospital Where would that be standard?
- brigandish 4y ago
  England.
  - collinvandyck76 4y ago
    Similar to "I went to university" and so on.

wizofaus 4y ago

I dunno - there after plenty of cases we use "the" despite it not referring to a known single instance of something. "The thing is..." or "what's the matter" or even "I've got the flu". Good luck trying to explain to Japanese speakers especially why "a dinner" or "go to a hospital" don't sound natural but "I'll have a beer" or "a few friends" are fine. And why is it "once upon a time" but "most of the time"...