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The same can be said about financial sector bailouts, agricultural subsides and the outrageous 800 billions for “defense”. Cancelling student debt is a lot che

The same can be said about financial sector bailouts, agricultural subsides and the outrageous 800 billions for “defense”. Cancelling student debt is a lot cheaper than the F-35 program, more democratic and has a better return in terms of welfare. I am all in for a more streamlined and lean State, but until that time, I think that Raytheon stock holders and Wall Street can share a bit of the current pie with the People

devmunchies 4y ago
> has a better return in terms of welfare maybe. If it becomes normalized, it would alter the cost-benefit dynamic in degrees even more and not place as much pressure on pursuing a more valuable degrees. Hopefully this is a one-and-done and we can be more creative going forward, like providing more grants for deeper, more fundamental degrees like chemistry, math, computer engineering, manufacturing, etc. > same can be said about financial sector bailouts, agricultural subsides agree. we need to let companies properly decompose. It unintuitively creates more growth, and new companies are created from the ashes. Injecting old companies with formaldehyde creates sclerotic monoliths.
- QuarterReptile 4y ago
  >Hopefully this is a one-and-done and we can be more creative going forward, like providing more grants for deeper, more fundamental degrees like chemistry, math, computer engineering, manufacturing, etc. I hate to stomp on your hope, but this is a late-stage step on the road to 'free' public K-16 in the US. Graduate degrees are already needed to provide the signal you could generate 40 years ago with undergrad. As to actual learning apart from the signal of a degree, the bulk of undergraduate educations, now that there is such a bulk, will provide progressively less value compared to top institutions where students are ready to learn, just as most public schools fall behind the well-known magnet schools that we all wish were more than exceptions to the rule.
  - Volundr 4y ago
    > Graduate degrees are already needed to provide the signal you could generate 40 years ago with undergrad. Honest question, are they? At least as someone hiring for software engineering BS in CS is generally something I look for in a junior level candidate (I rarely pay attention to the education of a candidate with a few years under their belt), but no matter the experience level a masters has never added much, barring some really interesting projects. Other fields might be different, but I don't think I'm the exception for software engineering.
- drewcoo 4y ago
  > not place as much pressure on pursuing a more valuable degrees > like chemistry, math, computer engineering, manufacturing, etc. Good. Some of us would prefer that the point of college is a better educated populace, not a better educated avarice. Let's keep the greed at bay.
  - devmunchies 4y ago
    if the point is just a general education, then just watch youtube, subscribe to online courses, read books, etc. (I just dropped $100 to a 45hr three.js course. Much cheaper, more useful, and more current than most technical college classes) > Let's keep the greed at bay. Tell that to the university endowments.
bko 4y ago
> The same can be said about financial sector bailouts, agricultural subsides and the outrageous 800 billions for “defense”. Cancelling student debt is a lot cheaper than the F-35 program, more democratic and has a better return in terms of welfare. The two have nothing to do with each other. I am against the financial sector bailouts as well, but it's important to note that the 2008 $700 billion bailouts were paid back >> Early estimates for the bailout's risk cost were as much as $700 billion; however, TARP recovered $441.7 billion from $426.4 billion invested, earning a $15.3 billion profit or an annualized rate of return of 0.6%, and perhaps a loss when adjusted for inflation.[3] > I am all in for a more streamlined and lean State, but until that time, I think that Raytheon stock holders and Wall Street can share a bit of the current pie with the People The people that will pay is taxpayers and consumers through higher prices. I'm fairly sure Wall Street will be fine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Economic_Stabilization_Act_of_2008 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Economic_Stabilizati...
- PretzelPirate 4y ago
  > but it's important to note that the 2008 $700 billion bailouts were paid back I’m far from an expert, but isn’t the assumption that the cost of cancelling these loans will also be paid back indirectly now that loan holders have less of a financial burden? It feels to me like giving people lower levels of debt, access to affordable education, and a social safety net to allow risk taking would improve our economy overall. Of course this isn’t what the government has provided at the moment.
  - bko 4y ago
    All the supposed benefits to loans being cancelled is equally applicable to tax cuts, except it would have less unintended consequences and better targeted. The current loans are targeted to college educated young people. College is still a good investment so the benefit will skew towards relatively wealthy. > It feels to me like giving people lower levels of debt, access to affordable education, and a social safety net to allow risk taking would improve our economy overall. Of course this isn’t what the government has provided at the moment. Right. Student loan forgiveness does nothing about lowering cost of education. If anything it doubles down as people will be more willing to borrow more thinking they will get it forgiven. It also discourages others to pay back their loans. The reason schools are crazy expensive because we encourage students to take out uneconomical loans. Basically a no questions asked loan given to any 18 year old attending an accredited school. Private lenders are more discerning and will consider the cost, major and profile of the student and offer a lower rate than the federal rate for borrowers with strong profiles (e.g. going to med school vs majoring in pottery at NYU)
adventured 4y ago
$800 billion is high for defense, it's nowhere close to outrageous given the responsibilities the US has as the world's only superpower (see: helping Ukraine defend itself with an inevitable $100+ billion in funding), along with having the world's largest economy and the economic interests that go with that. 3% of GDP is not unreasonable for US military spending. US GDP is estimated to be around $25-$26 trillion for 2022. What's outrageous are countries in Europe spending sub 2% of GDP on defense and relying on the US to defend Europe from Russia.
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  Hence, the Euro is now worth less than the Dollar because there is no Euro without the Dollar.
- smallstepforman 4y ago
  If the Western European neighbours were a bit more politically neutral and as compassionate as their eastern neighbour, there wouldn’t be politically induced tension in the region. Every sane person would rather spend 2% of GDP on health, infrastructure, research etc, but when you observe year after year western abuse and provocations, you kind of start divesting into defense budgets. Where was the outcry for the last 8 years of bombings, civil rights abuse, threats etc?
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > the responsibilities the US has as the world's only superpower Nitpick: the world's only good superpower. China is a superpower too, but an evil one.
  - croes 4y ago
    >Nitpick: the world's only good superpower. The Middle East begs to differ.
  - ptruesdell 4y ago
    Sounds like your comment was written by a literal child.
- 4y ago
chasil 4y ago
Regardless of the morality, SCOTUS will strike this down if and only if a litigant with standing files suit. The speaker of the house herself affirmed recently that the president does not have the constitutional power to do this, and the court will likely agree. The president is using 9/11 educational legislation signed by Bush that focused on military and disaster victims for this blanket debt cancelation. It is a dramatic expansion of power that was never intended. However, the court cannot consider the question unless someone can show actual harm by the president's action, and thus prove standing. That standing may be denied in the trial court, but after a raft of appeals, SCOTUS may grant standing and remand. Then the trial begins, and we will have another set of appeals before us (and perhaps an injunction) when the trial concludes. It will be a long and bitter road, strewn with disappointment, either way.
- datavirtue 4y ago
  And the people carrying on with all this litigation will be seen as the people trying to take away student debt relief. Good luck spinning that one.
  - chasil 4y ago
    The litigants will be carefully chosen to be politically isolated from either party.
    - Clent 4y ago
      Politically isolated, ok with this being their immortal legacy and have standing. That likely narrows the list down to very few. They would likely be silently blacklisted and would need to align with a party to survive. I guess they could be independently wealthy, however, that narrows the list even further.
      - chasil 4y ago
        Not really. Even "True the Vote" is supposedly nonpartisan. The effort to find standing will devolve to a "Citizens for Fiscally Responsible Government" group with no direct ties to the Republican party.
mrep 4y ago
> Cancelling student debt is a lot cheaper than the F-35 program What math are you using? From wiki: "F-35 program's expected acquisition costs to $406.5 billion, with total lifetime cost (i.e., to 2070) to $1.5 trillion in then-year dollars which also includes operations and maintenance" [0] whereas there is currently $1.75 trillion student loan debt [1]. 1.5 trillion in 2070 dollars is less than 1.75 trillion in 2022 dollars and the latter doesn't include the next 50 years of higher education funding. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II#Design_and_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning... [1]: https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/student-loan-debt#:~:text=Student%20loan%20borrowers%20in%20the,Reserve%20Bank%20of%20St.%20Louis https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/stude....
- ubermonkey 4y ago
  I suspect the poster meant "the actual student debt cancellation being done".
  - ninkendo 4y ago
    Right, the current cancellation signed by Biden cancels up to $10k for most borrowers (those making under $125k). This is expected to add up to around $244 billion: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/24/biden-expected-to-cancel-10000-in-federal-student-loan-debt-for-most-borrowers.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/24/biden-expected-to-cancel-100...
- llbeansandrice 4y ago
  I know you're kinda trying to play gotcha, but it's insane that a single defense program costs about the same as the entirety of current US student loan debt. I don't think you've made the point you wanted to. Plus, the OC was definitely talking about the student loan forgiveness that's actually been approved. Which is a measly $300bn in comparison.
- croes 4y ago
  You really think that the cost will stay at 1.5 trillion dollars? What were the estimates of costs at beginning of the F-35 program for the year 2022? I bet less than 406.5 billion dollars.
umvi 4y ago
> and the outrageous 800 billions for “defense”. Cancelling student debt is a lot cheaper than the F-35 program I think you are greatly underestimating or at least greatly under-appreciating the role of USA defense on the world stage. Why do you think EU and other USA allies can get away with spending so little on defense? They are basically outsourcing defense and weapons development to us. F-35 development went way over budget, but actually making one now is relatively cheap and will continue to get cheaper - cheap enough that an ally like Israel could purchase a dozen as a part of their smaller defense budget in the coming decades like they currently do with F-16s. Why is the global shipping industry so much lower risk that it was in decades past? The US Navy protecting shipping lanes is largely to thank. I'm sure US DoD is worthy of many of its criticisms, including high budget, but it irks me to see the baby so eagerly thrown out with the bathwater at every opportunity.
- jackson1442 4y ago
  Ok, let's have everyone pay their fair share (as a portion of GDP) then. We have plenty of internal improvements to work on over here.
  - barelysapient 4y ago
    Yes exactly. And if they don't, lets leave NATO and stop with this eternal world policing at the human expense of our own populace.
    - foogazi 4y ago
      > Yes exactly. And if they don't, lets leave NATO and stop with this eternal world policing at the human expense of our own populace. No, I enjoy not being invaded
      - cudgy 4y ago
        Your wallet is being invaded to take actions that have actually increased anger against the US.
jwarden 4y ago
One bad thing doesn’t justify another bad thing. And where is the welfare return? It is a transfer of wealth towards a lucky and already privileged subset of the population, paid for by present and future taxpayers, many of whom are underprivileged. The idea of welfare is wealth transfer from the more to the less privileged. But this seems like the opposite.
hahaitsfunny 4y ago
PathOfEclipse 4y ago
"I am all for a streamlined and lean State, but until that time, I'm happy for my side of the political aisle to waste money to accomplish its objectives." You might as well have just said that. How about we say all the things you listed are bad and we should fight against all of them, and not justify any based on the others? "Two wrongs don't make a right" - every parent to their children, basically.
flashgordon 4y ago
I'd say bailing out financial sector for fiscal imprudence was not right either?. On a grander scheme of things wouldnt making student loans normal like any other loan (ie death isn't the only way to get out of it) be the less predatory and ethical thing to do?

devmunchies 4y ago

> has a better return in terms of welfare maybe. If it becomes normalized, it would alter the cost-benefit dynamic in degrees even more and not place as much pressure on pursuing a more valuable degrees. Hopefully this is a one-and-done and we can be more creative going forward, like providing more grants for deeper, more fundamental degrees like chemistry, math, computer engineering, manufacturing, etc. > same can be said about financial sector bailouts, agricultural subsides agree. we need to let companies properly decompose. It unintuitively creates more growth, and new companies are created from the ashes. Injecting old companies with formaldehyde creates sclerotic monoliths.

QuarterReptile 4y ago
>Hopefully this is a one-and-done and we can be more creative going forward, like providing more grants for deeper, more fundamental degrees like chemistry, math, computer engineering, manufacturing, etc. I hate to stomp on your hope, but this is a late-stage step on the road to 'free' public K-16 in the US. Graduate degrees are already needed to provide the signal you could generate 40 years ago with undergrad. As to actual learning apart from the signal of a degree, the bulk of undergraduate educations, now that there is such a bulk, will provide progressively less value compared to top institutions where students are ready to learn, just as most public schools fall behind the well-known magnet schools that we all wish were more than exceptions to the rule.
- Volundr 4y ago
  > Graduate degrees are already needed to provide the signal you could generate 40 years ago with undergrad. Honest question, are they? At least as someone hiring for software engineering BS in CS is generally something I look for in a junior level candidate (I rarely pay attention to the education of a candidate with a few years under their belt), but no matter the experience level a masters has never added much, barring some really interesting projects. Other fields might be different, but I don't think I'm the exception for software engineering.
drewcoo 4y ago
> not place as much pressure on pursuing a more valuable degrees > like chemistry, math, computer engineering, manufacturing, etc. Good. Some of us would prefer that the point of college is a better educated populace, not a better educated avarice. Let's keep the greed at bay.
- devmunchies 4y ago
  if the point is just a general education, then just watch youtube, subscribe to online courses, read books, etc. (I just dropped $100 to a 45hr three.js course. Much cheaper, more useful, and more current than most technical college classes) > Let's keep the greed at bay. Tell that to the university endowments.

bko 4y ago

> The same can be said about financial sector bailouts, agricultural subsides and the outrageous 800 billions for “defense”. Cancelling student debt is a lot cheaper than the F-35 program, more democratic and has a better return in terms of welfare. The two have nothing to do with each other. I am against the financial sector bailouts as well, but it's important to note that the 2008 $700 billion bailouts were paid back >> Early estimates for the bailout's risk cost were as much as $700 billion; however, TARP recovered $441.7 billion from $426.4 billion invested, earning a $15.3 billion profit or an annualized rate of return of 0.6%, and perhaps a loss when adjusted for inflation.[3] > I am all in for a more streamlined and lean State, but until that time, I think that Raytheon stock holders and Wall Street can share a bit of the current pie with the People The people that will pay is taxpayers and consumers through higher prices. I'm fairly sure Wall Street will be fine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Economic_Stabilization_Act_of_2008 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Economic_Stabilizati...

PretzelPirate 4y ago
> but it's important to note that the 2008 $700 billion bailouts were paid back I’m far from an expert, but isn’t the assumption that the cost of cancelling these loans will also be paid back indirectly now that loan holders have less of a financial burden? It feels to me like giving people lower levels of debt, access to affordable education, and a social safety net to allow risk taking would improve our economy overall. Of course this isn’t what the government has provided at the moment.
- bko 4y ago
  All the supposed benefits to loans being cancelled is equally applicable to tax cuts, except it would have less unintended consequences and better targeted. The current loans are targeted to college educated young people. College is still a good investment so the benefit will skew towards relatively wealthy. > It feels to me like giving people lower levels of debt, access to affordable education, and a social safety net to allow risk taking would improve our economy overall. Of course this isn’t what the government has provided at the moment. Right. Student loan forgiveness does nothing about lowering cost of education. If anything it doubles down as people will be more willing to borrow more thinking they will get it forgiven. It also discourages others to pay back their loans. The reason schools are crazy expensive because we encourage students to take out uneconomical loans. Basically a no questions asked loan given to any 18 year old attending an accredited school. Private lenders are more discerning and will consider the cost, major and profile of the student and offer a lower rate than the federal rate for borrowers with strong profiles (e.g. going to med school vs majoring in pottery at NYU)

adventured 4y ago

$800 billion is high for defense, it's nowhere close to outrageous given the responsibilities the US has as the world's only superpower (see: helping Ukraine defend itself with an inevitable $100+ billion in funding), along with having the world's largest economy and the economic interests that go with that. 3% of GDP is not unreasonable for US military spending. US GDP is estimated to be around $25-$26 trillion for 2022. What's outrageous are countries in Europe spending sub 2% of GDP on defense and relying on the US to defend Europe from Russia.

ROTMetro 4y ago
Hence, the Euro is now worth less than the Dollar because there is no Euro without the Dollar.
smallstepforman 4y ago
If the Western European neighbours were a bit more politically neutral and as compassionate as their eastern neighbour, there wouldn’t be politically induced tension in the region. Every sane person would rather spend 2% of GDP on health, infrastructure, research etc, but when you observe year after year western abuse and provocations, you kind of start divesting into defense budgets. Where was the outcry for the last 8 years of bombings, civil rights abuse, threats etc?
josephcsible 4y ago
> the responsibilities the US has as the world's only superpower Nitpick: the world's only good superpower. China is a superpower too, but an evil one.
- croes 4y ago
  >Nitpick: the world's only good superpower. The Middle East begs to differ.
- ptruesdell 4y ago
  Sounds like your comment was written by a literal child.
4y ago

chasil 4y ago

Regardless of the morality, SCOTUS will strike this down if and only if a litigant with standing files suit. The speaker of the house herself affirmed recently that the president does not have the constitutional power to do this, and the court will likely agree. The president is using 9/11 educational legislation signed by Bush that focused on military and disaster victims for this blanket debt cancelation. It is a dramatic expansion of power that was never intended. However, the court cannot consider the question unless someone can show actual harm by the president's action, and thus prove standing. That standing may be denied in the trial court, but after a raft of appeals, SCOTUS may grant standing and remand. Then the trial begins, and we will have another set of appeals before us (and perhaps an injunction) when the trial concludes. It will be a long and bitter road, strewn with disappointment, either way.

datavirtue 4y ago
And the people carrying on with all this litigation will be seen as the people trying to take away student debt relief. Good luck spinning that one.
- chasil 4y ago
  The litigants will be carefully chosen to be politically isolated from either party.
  - Clent 4y ago
    Politically isolated, ok with this being their immortal legacy and have standing. That likely narrows the list down to very few. They would likely be silently blacklisted and would need to align with a party to survive. I guess they could be independently wealthy, however, that narrows the list even further.
    - chasil 4y ago
      Not really. Even "True the Vote" is supposedly nonpartisan. The effort to find standing will devolve to a "Citizens for Fiscally Responsible Government" group with no direct ties to the Republican party.

mrep 4y ago

> Cancelling student debt is a lot cheaper than the F-35 program What math are you using? From wiki: "F-35 program's expected acquisition costs to $406.5 billion, with total lifetime cost (i.e., to 2070) to $1.5 trillion in then-year dollars which also includes operations and maintenance" [0] whereas there is currently $1.75 trillion student loan debt [1]. 1.5 trillion in 2070 dollars is less than 1.75 trillion in 2022 dollars and the latter doesn't include the next 50 years of higher education funding. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II#Design_and_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning... [1]: https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/student-loan-debt#:~:text=Student%20loan%20borrowers%20in%20the,Reserve%20Bank%20of%20St.%20Louis https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/stude....

ubermonkey 4y ago
I suspect the poster meant "the actual student debt cancellation being done".
- ninkendo 4y ago
  Right, the current cancellation signed by Biden cancels up to $10k for most borrowers (those making under $125k). This is expected to add up to around $244 billion: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/24/biden-expected-to-cancel-10000-in-federal-student-loan-debt-for-most-borrowers.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/24/biden-expected-to-cancel-100...
llbeansandrice 4y ago
I know you're kinda trying to play gotcha, but it's insane that a single defense program costs about the same as the entirety of current US student loan debt. I don't think you've made the point you wanted to. Plus, the OC was definitely talking about the student loan forgiveness that's actually been approved. Which is a measly $300bn in comparison.
croes 4y ago
You really think that the cost will stay at 1.5 trillion dollars? What were the estimates of costs at beginning of the F-35 program for the year 2022? I bet less than 406.5 billion dollars.

umvi 4y ago

> and the outrageous 800 billions for “defense”. Cancelling student debt is a lot cheaper than the F-35 program I think you are greatly underestimating or at least greatly under-appreciating the role of USA defense on the world stage. Why do you think EU and other USA allies can get away with spending so little on defense? They are basically outsourcing defense and weapons development to us. F-35 development went way over budget, but actually making one now is relatively cheap and will continue to get cheaper - cheap enough that an ally like Israel could purchase a dozen as a part of their smaller defense budget in the coming decades like they currently do with F-16s. Why is the global shipping industry so much lower risk that it was in decades past? The US Navy protecting shipping lanes is largely to thank. I'm sure US DoD is worthy of many of its criticisms, including high budget, but it irks me to see the baby so eagerly thrown out with the bathwater at every opportunity.

jackson1442 4y ago
Ok, let's have everyone pay their fair share (as a portion of GDP) then. We have plenty of internal improvements to work on over here.
- barelysapient 4y ago
  Yes exactly. And if they don't, lets leave NATO and stop with this eternal world policing at the human expense of our own populace.
  - foogazi 4y ago
    > Yes exactly. And if they don't, lets leave NATO and stop with this eternal world policing at the human expense of our own populace. No, I enjoy not being invaded
    - cudgy 4y ago
      Your wallet is being invaded to take actions that have actually increased anger against the US.

jwarden 4y ago

One bad thing doesn’t justify another bad thing. And where is the welfare return? It is a transfer of wealth towards a lucky and already privileged subset of the population, paid for by present and future taxpayers, many of whom are underprivileged. The idea of welfare is wealth transfer from the more to the less privileged. But this seems like the opposite.

hahaitsfunny 4y ago

PathOfEclipse 4y ago

"I am all for a streamlined and lean State, but until that time, I'm happy for my side of the political aisle to waste money to accomplish its objectives." You might as well have just said that. How about we say all the things you listed are bad and we should fight against all of them, and not justify any based on the others? "Two wrongs don't make a right" - every parent to their children, basically.

flashgordon 4y ago

I'd say bailing out financial sector for fiscal imprudence was not right either?. On a grander scheme of things wouldnt making student loans normal like any other loan (ie death isn't the only way to get out of it) be the less predatory and ethical thing to do?