9 ms·

Macron warns of ‘end of abundance’ as France faces difficult winter

41 points by ta988 4y ago

ta988 4y ago
Winter is also the storm season where there can be a deep impact on electrical production.
- badpun 4y ago
  Is it in France? In Poland summer is the storm season.
  - ta988 4y ago
    It actually depends a bit on where in France. West cost has Atlantic storms east side has more continental and south east close to the Mediterranean has a completely different one as well.
logicalmonster 4y ago
> The president, speaking before ministers at the Élysée, said the country was at a “tipping point” and faced a difficult winter and a new era of instability caused by climate change and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. The whole Russia situation is eventually going to get resolved, but blaming problems on climate change is going to be the new go-to political excuse for any bad human political decisions, lack of foresight, bad management, etc. It's a great political tactic: there's no end conceivable to the "climate emergency" and you it's hard for most establishment political hacks to ever disagree with that messaging without risking being labelled as pro-climate-change.
- yesUgotit 4y ago
- iLoveOncall 4y ago
  If it leads to more actions taken to tackle climate change, I’ll take it.
  - blockwriter 4y ago
    But the people that are actively misleading you are the same ones that are supposed to implement the solutions. How are we supposed to trust these people will effectuate incredibly difficult tradeoffs if they fail basic litmus tests of accountability?
  - logicalmonster 4y ago
    In what circumstances has "the end justifies the means" as a political justification ever worked out for the average person?
    - iLoveOncall 4y ago
      The means is just “blaming their incompetence on climate change”. It’s a small price to pay, and one we are already paying anyway, except they use another excuse at the moment.
      - logicalmonster 4y ago
        You're only thinking half-a-step ahead. I don't care one way or the other about parasitical politicians trying to salvage fragile careers and egos. I care about what comes next. What happens once you agree to hand them that power to fight climate change? If you accept the principle that the ends justify the means, there's no horror that can't conceivably be justified to fight climate change. This is the exact same mentality that leads to forms of human rights violations like an eternal war on drugs, eternal war on terror, violating peoples' privacy to "protect the children", and many abuses throughout history.
- mythrwy 4y ago
  I personally don't see how humans would not be affecting the climate. But, I highly doubt the accuracy of many models and predictions at this point. The best I can say is "I don't really know the sum outcome of our activities and doubt the experts really do either". Just my opinion, please don't go on ideological holy war, that isn't the point. Here is what I'm pretty confident about. A whole lot of people around the world are transitioning to modern energy intensive economies at a time when we have already picked a lot of the low hanging fruit in regards to fossil fuels, minerals and water from aquifers. So what happens? Do we really think 1998 USA levels of living is globally sustainable for the population? How are we going to handle this challenge? Looked at through this lens, a lot of activities of governments (including proclamations of climate change and various military/intelligence campaigns) start to make a lot more sense.
  - thfuran 4y ago
    >But, I highly doubt the accuracy of many models and predictions at this point Why?
    - mythrwy 4y ago
      - moistly 4y ago
        mythrwy 4y ago
        [flagged]
        moistly 4y ago
        deleted 4y ago
- yongjik 4y ago
  > It's a great political tactic: there's no end conceivable to the "climate emergency" and you it's hard for most establishment political hacks to ever disagree with that messaging without risking being labelled as pro-climate-change. Ah, but what you're doing here is also another great political tactic: if a crisis is so deep and far-reaching that there's no foreseeable end in the near future, you can oppose any solution because it was always like this, it will be always like this, and people should simply accept it as is.
  - logicalmonster 4y ago
    > you can oppose any solution because it was always like this, it will be always like this, and people should simply accept it as is. I have eyes to see the world and choose to use them. The same celebrities that tell us that climate change is going to ruin us all keep buying ocean-side estates and using their private jets to travel to international environmental conferences. Interesting, eh? When it comes to actions that harm peoples' liberty and livelihoods, the standard we should go by should be purely unassailable. Human beings (not all human beings, mind you, just the unwashed poors) are being told that they must sacrifice their living standards and their liberty to resolve very nebulous climate change predictions that have been continuously been proven wrong. This is too much to ask. I refuse the bugs, the pod, and the science juice. Real environmental issues like the health of the oceans (an actual, real issue) are totally ignored. I think many high-IQ people here have been totally misled about what needs to be focused on and it's really sad.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - ta988 4y ago
      They can afford to loose those homes plus there is a thing about owning something that nobody else will be able to own after.
rasz 4y ago
> new era of instability caused by ... Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. but Lynred (microbolometers in ru drones, embargo restricted component) and Thales (whole military grade thermal sighting systems in ru tanks and helis) made a literal killing, so its all right in the world!
globalreset 4y ago
Climate Change is a perfect scapegoat. Inflation? Climate Change. Energy Shortage? Climate Change. Unemployment? Climate Change. Wealth Inequality? Climate Change. Draconian Measures to suppress social unrest? Climate Change. Capital Controls? Climate Change. Extreme Taxation? Climate Change. Failing Infrastructure? Climate Change. It's much better scapegoat then the Jews, the capitalists, the burguasue, the kulaks that were popular last time around the system collapsed, because it's more complex, more abstract and timeless.
- throwayyy479087 4y ago
  It's also so slow that significant progress is difficult appreciate. The people who think that Miami is going to be underwater don't realize that that's about _storms_, not sea level rise - which worst case is a few CMs a century. I'm deeply concerned about climate change re: food production and human health but it's a dream for political campaigns.
lm28469 4y ago
It's kind of seen as a joke in France. Sounds like a setup for the more than likely electricity issues that are about to come for this winter. The bottom line is that we had a piss poor energy planning over the last decades and now that Europe can't rely on cheap gas we're fucked. We had more than enough time to upgrade our nuclear/renewable park. With 10 millions people in poverty, the abundance ended a while ago. Meanwhile petrol companies never made such profits: http://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/27887.jpeg http://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/27887.jpeg
- mrep 4y ago
  That is a terrible comparison chart as we were way more in pandemic mode a year ago. Exxon the biggest one on that list made more profits in Q2 of 2012 than Q2 of 2022 [0] and that is not even accounting for inflation. While that was probably somewhat of an outlier quarter, I expect this past one to be too as petrol prices have been going down recently. [0]: https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/XOM/exxon/gross-profit#:~:text=Exxon%20gross%20profit%20for%20the%20twelve%20months%20ending%20June%2030,a%2042.47%25%20decline%20from%202019 https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/XOM/exxon/gross-pr....
  - lm28469 4y ago
    > that is not even accounting for inflation. They _are_ the inflation. The price of energy is what makes everything else increase in price
- Proven 4y ago
  [dead]
- blacksmith_tb 4y ago
  I thought France was better off than most of the EU when it comes to energy, it didn't scuttle all its reactors like Germany?
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
tibbydudeza 4y ago
Energy production in France is mostly nuclear and for that you need water for cooling - dropping river levels due to the hot summer weather is curtailing output.
- ta988 4y ago
  And lot of reactors are end of life and struggle with their long maintenance windows and repairs.
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
This sounds like the kind of thing you say before implementing austerity policies that make everything worse and cutting taxes for the rich.
remir 4y ago
“What we are currently living through is a kind of major tipping point or a great upheaval … we are living the end of what could have seemed an era of abundance … the end of the abundance of products of technologies that seemed always available … the end of the abundance of land and materials including water,” he said. As an outsider, I think it's refreshing to see an elected official admit this openly.
- survirtual 4y ago
  It would be more refreshing if he said “an end of abundance for all you plebs. Me and my buddies? We’re in an unprecedented age of abundance off all your backs, and you’re letting us get away with it without even lifting a finger! We at least thought by now you’d have pitchforks or something out so we can mow you down with autonomous drones, but turns out we just feed you drivel on facebook and tiktok and you turn into compliant little drones. Anyway, enjoy your heat waves and droughts and hunger rapidly approaching, we’ll be in our bunkers and mansions and yachts you poor saps built for us”
  - qsdf38100 4y ago
    Meh. Someone has to rise the question of when do we stop wasting ressources because we can? Or maybe we can’t anymore ? But he’s not allowed to rise this problem because he’s rich? If this guy was after money he would have continued his career in finance. Usual Macron bashing, he’s responsible for anything bad that happens but can’t get credit for anything good.
    - survirtual 4y ago
      I don’t even know who Macron is — besides his title and the fact he is clearly rich. I try my best to not know anyone I can’t shake my hands with. I’d rather know the sound of wind, streams, trees, the expanse of night stars, and the people I can share meals with next to a fire enjoying the same things. What I do know is that it is universally hypocritical to tell a people the gravy train is over for you, while you continue to ride it. That is not leadership and that is not someone anyone should be elevating. A leader in this climate should give up ALL private possessions. Their riches should be used directly to further the goals of the human condition. They should not live in richness but in similar conditions to the least fortunate — so that they know what population to target with policy to lift them out of suffering. You might be used to these charlatans people call leaders, but it doesn’t change what they are regardless how “normal” it might seem. They are not leaders. They are frauds. They are impoverished of spirit, and no amount of riches can overcome that. It is tiring to see people lead by these poor, peasant souls who are wealthy in money only — when there are so many noble souls on Earth without an avenue to share their gifts. So no, until he lives on the streets and sees the conditions of common people, he is not allowed to raise the issue. Until he stops flying on private jets, he is not allowed to raise the issue. Until he gives up living in luxury, until he cooks his own food, until he washes his own laundry, until he experiences what people experience, he is an insect in being able to say anything meaningful. As is anyone like him. As an aside, it is astounding to me how quickly people rise to defend these men and women who they have never met. Is anyone so quick to defend their neighbor? Is anyone so quick to defend a beggar on a street corner? A man losing his job to outsourcing? How is it that people have so many opinions on those they have never shook hands with, never shared a meal with, never even exchanged gazes with, but leave their fellow many around them to die for all they care? Sad.
labrador 4y ago
He says that like consuming less and living a simpler life is a bad thing
- grnmamba 4y ago
  Reduction of living standards (of the population of course, not Macron's) are absolutely a bad thing.
  - labrador 4y ago
    I am not an economist so I don't know how to respond to your statement. I'm sure you're correct that it's absolutely a bad thing in some sense for some people. How the Standard of Living Is Measured: The generally accepted measure of the standard of living is GDP per capita. This is a nation's gross domestic product divided by its population. The GDP is the total output of goods and services produced in a year by everyone within the country's borders. https://www.thebalance.com/standard-of-living-3305758 https://www.thebalance.com/standard-of-living-3305758 If living consuming less and living simply is "absolutely a bad thing" then consuming more and living more complicated lives is absolutely a good thing. But good for who? It's not good for the planet and it's not good according to many spiritual and religious traditions because it's driven by always wanting more, which implies a certain amount of dissatisfaction with what you already have. Rabbi Hyman Schachtel (1954) proposed that "happiness is not having what you want, but wanting what you have" Is happiness having what you want, wanting what you have, or both? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18399890/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18399890/
    - nradov 4y ago
      What is the optimal level of consumption? Which specific things should we give up? What if I don't share your same spiritual and religious traditions?
    - grnmamba 4y ago
      > If living consuming less and living simply is "absolutely a bad thing" then consuming more and living more complicated lives is absolutely a good thing. I did not say that. I did however imply that being unable to afford heating (or even being unable to receive heating at all) during winter is absolutely a bad thing, and that's the path Europe is headed towards. Having a high GDP per capita does not mean high environmental damage at all; in fact the opposite is true. Compare how emerging countries generate electricity with how developed countries generate electricity. http://wdi.worldbank.org/table/3.7 http://wdi.worldbank.org/table/3.7
hahaitsfunny 4y ago

41 points by ta988 4y ago

ta988 4y ago

Winter is also the storm season where there can be a deep impact on electrical production.

badpun 4y ago
Is it in France? In Poland summer is the storm season.
- ta988 4y ago
  It actually depends a bit on where in France. West cost has Atlantic storms east side has more continental and south east close to the Mediterranean has a completely different one as well.

logicalmonster 4y ago

> The president, speaking before ministers at the Élysée, said the country was at a “tipping point” and faced a difficult winter and a new era of instability caused by climate change and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. The whole Russia situation is eventually going to get resolved, but blaming problems on climate change is going to be the new go-to political excuse for any bad human political decisions, lack of foresight, bad management, etc. It's a great political tactic: there's no end conceivable to the "climate emergency" and you it's hard for most establishment political hacks to ever disagree with that messaging without risking being labelled as pro-climate-change.

yesUgotit 4y ago
iLoveOncall 4y ago
If it leads to more actions taken to tackle climate change, I’ll take it.
- blockwriter 4y ago
  But the people that are actively misleading you are the same ones that are supposed to implement the solutions. How are we supposed to trust these people will effectuate incredibly difficult tradeoffs if they fail basic litmus tests of accountability?
- logicalmonster 4y ago
  In what circumstances has "the end justifies the means" as a political justification ever worked out for the average person?
  - iLoveOncall 4y ago
    The means is just “blaming their incompetence on climate change”. It’s a small price to pay, and one we are already paying anyway, except they use another excuse at the moment.
    - logicalmonster 4y ago
      You're only thinking half-a-step ahead. I don't care one way or the other about parasitical politicians trying to salvage fragile careers and egos. I care about what comes next. What happens once you agree to hand them that power to fight climate change? If you accept the principle that the ends justify the means, there's no horror that can't conceivably be justified to fight climate change. This is the exact same mentality that leads to forms of human rights violations like an eternal war on drugs, eternal war on terror, violating peoples' privacy to "protect the children", and many abuses throughout history.
mythrwy 4y ago
I personally don't see how humans would not be affecting the climate. But, I highly doubt the accuracy of many models and predictions at this point. The best I can say is "I don't really know the sum outcome of our activities and doubt the experts really do either". Just my opinion, please don't go on ideological holy war, that isn't the point. Here is what I'm pretty confident about. A whole lot of people around the world are transitioning to modern energy intensive economies at a time when we have already picked a lot of the low hanging fruit in regards to fossil fuels, minerals and water from aquifers. So what happens? Do we really think 1998 USA levels of living is globally sustainable for the population? How are we going to handle this challenge? Looked at through this lens, a lot of activities of governments (including proclamations of climate change and various military/intelligence campaigns) start to make a lot more sense.
- thfuran 4y ago
  >But, I highly doubt the accuracy of many models and predictions at this point Why?
  - mythrwy 4y ago
    - moistly 4y ago
      - mythrwy 4y ago
        [flagged]
        moistly 4y ago
        deleted 4y ago
yongjik 4y ago
> It's a great political tactic: there's no end conceivable to the "climate emergency" and you it's hard for most establishment political hacks to ever disagree with that messaging without risking being labelled as pro-climate-change. Ah, but what you're doing here is also another great political tactic: if a crisis is so deep and far-reaching that there's no foreseeable end in the near future, you can oppose any solution because it was always like this, it will be always like this, and people should simply accept it as is.
- logicalmonster 4y ago
  > you can oppose any solution because it was always like this, it will be always like this, and people should simply accept it as is. I have eyes to see the world and choose to use them. The same celebrities that tell us that climate change is going to ruin us all keep buying ocean-side estates and using their private jets to travel to international environmental conferences. Interesting, eh? When it comes to actions that harm peoples' liberty and livelihoods, the standard we should go by should be purely unassailable. Human beings (not all human beings, mind you, just the unwashed poors) are being told that they must sacrifice their living standards and their liberty to resolve very nebulous climate change predictions that have been continuously been proven wrong. This is too much to ask. I refuse the bugs, the pod, and the science juice. Real environmental issues like the health of the oceans (an actual, real issue) are totally ignored. I think many high-IQ people here have been totally misled about what needs to be focused on and it's really sad.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - ta988 4y ago
    They can afford to loose those homes plus there is a thing about owning something that nobody else will be able to own after.

rasz 4y ago

> new era of instability caused by ... Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. but Lynred (microbolometers in ru drones, embargo restricted component) and Thales (whole military grade thermal sighting systems in ru tanks and helis) made a literal killing, so its all right in the world!

globalreset 4y ago

Climate Change is a perfect scapegoat. Inflation? Climate Change. Energy Shortage? Climate Change. Unemployment? Climate Change. Wealth Inequality? Climate Change. Draconian Measures to suppress social unrest? Climate Change. Capital Controls? Climate Change. Extreme Taxation? Climate Change. Failing Infrastructure? Climate Change. It's much better scapegoat then the Jews, the capitalists, the burguasue, the kulaks that were popular last time around the system collapsed, because it's more complex, more abstract and timeless.

throwayyy479087 4y ago
It's also so slow that significant progress is difficult appreciate. The people who think that Miami is going to be underwater don't realize that that's about _storms_, not sea level rise - which worst case is a few CMs a century. I'm deeply concerned about climate change re: food production and human health but it's a dream for political campaigns.

lm28469 4y ago

It's kind of seen as a joke in France. Sounds like a setup for the more than likely electricity issues that are about to come for this winter. The bottom line is that we had a piss poor energy planning over the last decades and now that Europe can't rely on cheap gas we're fucked. We had more than enough time to upgrade our nuclear/renewable park. With 10 millions people in poverty, the abundance ended a while ago. Meanwhile petrol companies never made such profits: http://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/27887.jpeg http://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/27887.jpeg

mrep 4y ago
That is a terrible comparison chart as we were way more in pandemic mode a year ago. Exxon the biggest one on that list made more profits in Q2 of 2012 than Q2 of 2022 [0] and that is not even accounting for inflation. While that was probably somewhat of an outlier quarter, I expect this past one to be too as petrol prices have been going down recently. [0]: https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/XOM/exxon/gross-profit#:~:text=Exxon%20gross%20profit%20for%20the%20twelve%20months%20ending%20June%2030,a%2042.47%25%20decline%20from%202019 https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/XOM/exxon/gross-pr....
- lm28469 4y ago
  > that is not even accounting for inflation. They _are_ the inflation. The price of energy is what makes everything else increase in price
Proven 4y ago
[dead]
blacksmith_tb 4y ago
I thought France was better off than most of the EU when it comes to energy, it didn't scuttle all its reactors like Germany?
- toomuchtodo 4y ago

tibbydudeza 4y ago

Energy production in France is mostly nuclear and for that you need water for cooling - dropping river levels due to the hot summer weather is curtailing output.

ta988 4y ago
And lot of reactors are end of life and struggle with their long maintenance windows and repairs.

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

This sounds like the kind of thing you say before implementing austerity policies that make everything worse and cutting taxes for the rich.

remir 4y ago

“What we are currently living through is a kind of major tipping point or a great upheaval … we are living the end of what could have seemed an era of abundance … the end of the abundance of products of technologies that seemed always available … the end of the abundance of land and materials including water,” he said. As an outsider, I think it's refreshing to see an elected official admit this openly.

survirtual 4y ago
It would be more refreshing if he said “an end of abundance for all you plebs. Me and my buddies? We’re in an unprecedented age of abundance off all your backs, and you’re letting us get away with it without even lifting a finger! We at least thought by now you’d have pitchforks or something out so we can mow you down with autonomous drones, but turns out we just feed you drivel on facebook and tiktok and you turn into compliant little drones. Anyway, enjoy your heat waves and droughts and hunger rapidly approaching, we’ll be in our bunkers and mansions and yachts you poor saps built for us”
- qsdf38100 4y ago
  Meh. Someone has to rise the question of when do we stop wasting ressources because we can? Or maybe we can’t anymore ? But he’s not allowed to rise this problem because he’s rich? If this guy was after money he would have continued his career in finance. Usual Macron bashing, he’s responsible for anything bad that happens but can’t get credit for anything good.
  - survirtual 4y ago
    I don’t even know who Macron is — besides his title and the fact he is clearly rich. I try my best to not know anyone I can’t shake my hands with. I’d rather know the sound of wind, streams, trees, the expanse of night stars, and the people I can share meals with next to a fire enjoying the same things. What I do know is that it is universally hypocritical to tell a people the gravy train is over for you, while you continue to ride it. That is not leadership and that is not someone anyone should be elevating. A leader in this climate should give up ALL private possessions. Their riches should be used directly to further the goals of the human condition. They should not live in richness but in similar conditions to the least fortunate — so that they know what population to target with policy to lift them out of suffering. You might be used to these charlatans people call leaders, but it doesn’t change what they are regardless how “normal” it might seem. They are not leaders. They are frauds. They are impoverished of spirit, and no amount of riches can overcome that. It is tiring to see people lead by these poor, peasant souls who are wealthy in money only — when there are so many noble souls on Earth without an avenue to share their gifts. So no, until he lives on the streets and sees the conditions of common people, he is not allowed to raise the issue. Until he stops flying on private jets, he is not allowed to raise the issue. Until he gives up living in luxury, until he cooks his own food, until he washes his own laundry, until he experiences what people experience, he is an insect in being able to say anything meaningful. As is anyone like him. As an aside, it is astounding to me how quickly people rise to defend these men and women who they have never met. Is anyone so quick to defend their neighbor? Is anyone so quick to defend a beggar on a street corner? A man losing his job to outsourcing? How is it that people have so many opinions on those they have never shook hands with, never shared a meal with, never even exchanged gazes with, but leave their fellow many around them to die for all they care? Sad.

labrador 4y ago

He says that like consuming less and living a simpler life is a bad thing

grnmamba 4y ago
Reduction of living standards (of the population of course, not Macron's) are absolutely a bad thing.
- labrador 4y ago
  I am not an economist so I don't know how to respond to your statement. I'm sure you're correct that it's absolutely a bad thing in some sense for some people. How the Standard of Living Is Measured: The generally accepted measure of the standard of living is GDP per capita. This is a nation's gross domestic product divided by its population. The GDP is the total output of goods and services produced in a year by everyone within the country's borders. https://www.thebalance.com/standard-of-living-3305758 https://www.thebalance.com/standard-of-living-3305758 If living consuming less and living simply is "absolutely a bad thing" then consuming more and living more complicated lives is absolutely a good thing. But good for who? It's not good for the planet and it's not good according to many spiritual and religious traditions because it's driven by always wanting more, which implies a certain amount of dissatisfaction with what you already have. Rabbi Hyman Schachtel (1954) proposed that "happiness is not having what you want, but wanting what you have" Is happiness having what you want, wanting what you have, or both? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18399890/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18399890/
  - nradov 4y ago
    What is the optimal level of consumption? Which specific things should we give up? What if I don't share your same spiritual and religious traditions?
  - grnmamba 4y ago
    > If living consuming less and living simply is "absolutely a bad thing" then consuming more and living more complicated lives is absolutely a good thing. I did not say that. I did however imply that being unable to afford heating (or even being unable to receive heating at all) during winter is absolutely a bad thing, and that's the path Europe is headed towards. Having a high GDP per capita does not mean high environmental damage at all; in fact the opposite is true. Compare how emerging countries generate electricity with how developed countries generate electricity. http://wdi.worldbank.org/table/3.7 http://wdi.worldbank.org/table/3.7

hahaitsfunny 4y ago