11 ms·

USPTO to add surcharge on non-DOCX patent applications in 2023

159 points by zinekeller 4y ago

Ironlink 4y ago
In case anyone is looking for the size of the surcharge, I found it in the last row of this table: https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2020-16559/p-555 https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2020-16559/p-555
- colejohnson66 4y ago
  So, $100-400 depending on the size (CFR section 1.16(u)). That feels... excessive, but if processing a DOCX is automatic and PDFs require humans (I'm assuming), it makes sense.
lesuorac 4y ago
I don't think you submitted the link you wanted to. I see https://unblock.federalregister.gov/ https://unblock.federalregister.gov/ which doesn't take me anywhere useful.
- zinekeller 4y ago
  Sorry, I thought the second time (!) I've submitted this that the HN filter didn't mess up the link. Here it is (https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/04/28/2022-09027/filing-patent-applications-in-docx-format https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/04/28/2022-09...), hopefully! In case that the overagressive HN filer ate it again, it's https www-federalregister-gov documents/2022/04/28/2022-09027/filing-patent-applications-in-docx-format Also dang, recently HN's filters are too aggressive - from sentence-casing USPTO (to Uspto which isn't even a pronounceable acronym) to removing Twitter's search queries.
  - altairprime 4y ago
    You should email dang using the footer Contact link about this thread, so that he sees it.
- bsimpson 4y ago
  That explains why I get a 503 every time I pass the captcha.
emgeee 4y ago
The fee is $400
apocalyptic0n3 4y ago
I've been working on some tools that integrate with USPTO (both from the application side and the validation side) for quite a few years now and they've been making a TON of formatting changes recently. A lot of their PDF forms have changed, they're requiring XML versions of all data we submit, they're handling classifications differently, etc. Their process always felt like it was stuck in the past and being handled manually by humans before and now it feels like they're moving everything toward automated intake and initial reviews. I imagine this change is for the same reasons, and that's a hefty fee to force it. This also likely means I will need to rework our systems to spit out docx instead of/in addition to PDFs, which will be a nightmare to do. So that's fun.
- peteradio 4y ago
  I'm a masochist in need of work.
- MrLeap 4y ago
  The consolation is that, if I remember correctly, docx is just a zip file containing xml. I made an xlsx exporter in actionscript3 (lol) years ago and it worked like this. What I ultimately did was made a "template" document, and my code just injected strings into key spots, zipped it up in memory and gave it to you as a file.xlsx. Probably took me 3 days? I didn't have the benefit of libraries so I imagine this is significantly easier in less hobbled environments, nodejs or whatever probably has a kitchen sink package to do it.
  - lofatdairy 4y ago
    That's exactly right. There are definitely nodejs docx templating packages (I've worked on codebases that used them in the past), but they're certainly not required provided your documents are reasonably simple. If anything, generating a pdf from various input files/structured text has been a much harder task. We generated docx files to allow for easy modification by non-technical staff, but to generate a pdf we had to use a headless instance of libreoffice since pandoc was struggling with the rendering.
- barelycompetent 4y ago
nazgulsenpai 4y ago
I was wondering why docx format would be chosen instead of PDF but they answer it pretty completely here if anyone else is interested: https://www.uspto.gov/patents/docx https://www.uspto.gov/patents/docx
- jedberg 4y ago
  It looks like most of those translate to "We build our automated systems around DOCX so you get all our features if you use it". But it doesn't really say why they chose to build on docx.
  - apocalyptic0n3 4y ago
    > But it doesn't really say why they chose to build on docx. Having worked directly with their teams in the past (although not on this), a lot of their systems seemed to evolve naturally over time based on the needs present. In that industry, a large majority of the documents being passed back and forth are DOCX. So my semi-educated guess is someone built a system to handle some simple intake tasks for DOCX applications because a large majority already were, it evolved over a few years, and when they finally decided to fully automate the process, they decided to build upon what they have which only supported DOCX and it was cheaper/easier to mandate everyone submit in that format than to build a new system or add support for others.
    - jedberg 4y ago
      This makes the most sense.
    - ramoz 4y ago
      I get that you worked with them it seems, but would argue that your hunch is wrong here. Regulatory processes, business systems, and international integration are plagued by PDF OCR complexities. OCR creates systemic issues and an anatomy of complex system architectures. Im sure XML is a typical downstream for parsing anyways. Use DOCX to enhance quality of the overall scope of integrations.
nullc 4y ago
Machine learning is coming for the examiners jobs. :P
- pessimizer 4y ago
  You don't need machine learning to say yes to everything.
  - nullc 4y ago
    now now, the examiners often say no a couple times before saying yes.
- thallium205 4y ago
  Probably one of the easiest but also higher paying jobs of the federal government. They seriously work maybe one day a week.
  - _ggwa 4y ago
    Current USPTO patent examiner here. The job is regarded as difficult by the vast majority of examiners, as it's based on a quota system and examiners don't get enough time to do a quality job. I don't know of a single examiner who works only one day a week. Many work unpaid overtime to meet their quotas, euphemistically called "voluntary overtime", which is rarely voluntary. There's about 50% attrition in the first year for new hires right now. That sound easy to you? I don't know any other job that hires white-collar professionals with such high attrition. I encourage anyone who believes being a patent examiner is an easy job to read this subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/patentexaminer/ https://www.reddit.com/r/patentexaminer/ You can find patent examiners who say that being a patent examiner is relatively easy. These folks typically changed from a notoriously difficult job in law or academia. So it's only relatively easier. Beyond these cases, there do seem to be some examiners who have an easy time, but that's quite rare in my experience, and I'd question the quality of their work. As for why I took the job: I came from academia, so the job is easier in some respects. The quota isn't entirely bad: It's hard to meet, yes, but it's also mostly objective. If an examiner's numbers are good, the USPTO is happy with them. That contrasts with my experience in academia, where one's job performance is often subjective. If a researcher's boss decides they don't like the researcher for whatever reason (office politics, the researcher is socially awkward, etc.), there might be nothing the researcher could do to recover from that. The job also does give me a lot of freedom in other ways: I can live mostly anywhere I want to, I'm not expected to work all the time (production numbers beat looking busy by working all the time), there are few IP restrictions (aside from that I can't get a US patent), etc. The main problems for me are that the quota is too high and that I don't care for the technology I'm assigned (though the technology could be a lot worse). (It should go without saying that this comment is my own opinion and not that of the USPTO, US govt., my previous employers, etc.)
NotYourLawyer 4y ago
Can’t wait to see what kinds of unredacted metadata people start uploading without a thought.
- nfriedly 4y ago
  It sounds like they're going to try to catch and remove that - one of the bullet points under DOCX Benefits on https://www.uspto.gov/patents/docx https://www.uspto.gov/patents/docx reads: > Privacy: provides automatic metadata detection (e.g. author and comments) and removal features to support the submission of only substantive information in the DOCX file. And, then further down in the FAQ it says: > What happens to the metadata in DOCX files? > Metadata is generally removed by applicants prior to submission. However, if metadata is found during the validation process, it is automatically removed prior to submission. Examples of metadata include author, company, last modified by, etc. The only information that is preserved is the size, page count, and word count. > Outgoing DOCX documents (i.e. Office actions) from the USPTO to applicants will also have metadata removed.
nfriedly 4y ago
Note: the correct link is https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/04/28/2022-09027/filing-patent-applications-in-docx-format https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/04/28/2022-09... The fee is $100, $200, or $400 depending on the size of the document.
- datapolitical 4y ago
  Depending on the size of the entity. Small organizations qualify for a discount in filing fees. https://www.uspto.gov/patents/laws/micro-entity-status https://www.uspto.gov/patents/laws/micro-entity-status
aaaddaaaaa1112 4y ago
deathanatos 4y ago
> Due to aggressive automated scraping of FederalRegister.gov and eCFR.gov, programmatic access to these sites is limited to access to our extensive developer APIs. Apparently. Then a captcha and a button to request access, which if you complete, returns a 500 Internal Server Error. … my tax dollars are hard at work, I see. The Wayback Machine hasn't got a snapshot, either, it seems.
- batmaniam 4y ago
  Seriously, I've had my share of horror stories on government systems. Do they just not dogfood their own product? Where is their QA team? It's atrocious how basic tasks are so broken all the time.
  - ceeplusplus 4y ago
    Government can't afford to hire the competent talent, only the scraps after everyone else (even the consulting bodyshops) are done. The top GS pay bracket is lower than entry level engineers at many companies (not just FAANG, but also defense, F500 companies, etc.)
    - CobrastanJorji 4y ago
      One of the many things that I found tempting about working for the U.S. Digital Service was that, while the GS-15 pay grade is definitely way less than I'd make in the private sector, my spouse's family is military/government and the difference between "hippy programming thingy" and "has a GS-15/O-6 job" would've been night and day. The one puts me in a pile of stereotypes, but the other says "oh, he's basically the bureaucratic equivalent of a Captain, that's very respectable."
      - ceeplusplus 4y ago
        Different circles I guess. While my spouse's family considers government jobs to be stable and somewhat respectable, there is a lot more respect for FAANG and other high paying jobs. One is respectable, the other is prestigious.
xvilka 4y ago
Why require only proprietary format? It's a pity they wouldn't allow ODF.
- dingle_thunk 4y ago
  Office Open XML (docx), to be fair, is a non-proprietary standard. Microsoft has been forced into that by the EU; and they keep messing with it, but it is actually technically "open". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML
  - xvilka 4y ago
    It is open only on paper - at least half of it MSO-specific compatibility cruft, plus real documents often contain binary blobs that aren't described in the standard. Name "open" is a lie in this case. Moreover, it's made in ISO only because of corruption of these standardization bodies. It wasn't even properly reviewed!
    - phendrenad2 4y ago
      Seems to work in LibreOffice, which is open-source just fine.
      - xvilka 4y ago
        It's completely unrelated. LibreOffice can open most completely binary DOC or XLS as well, they were just reverse engineered. It has nothing to do with openness.
        jesprenj 4y ago
        Correlation does not imply causation. The fact that Libreoffice can open binary proprietary formats does not automatically imply that all formats it uses are binary and proprietary. DOCX is an open standard.
moistly 4y ago
If you’re not perfectionist about layout precision, MS Word provides the same meta-data encoding function through the application of style (‘this is a heading’, ‘this is a definition’, etc), as one can get from structured document layout applications like FrameMaker, Ventura, InDesign, Quark. If the PTO has provided an MS Word Style Template and a document schema (document template), it is dead easy to extract a useful XML encoding for further analysis. There is a lot you can ignore in an MS Word file. Dead easy to write XPaths and XQueries that provide an API for the original DOCX document collection.

159 points by zinekeller 4y ago

In case anyone is looking for the size of the surcharge, I found it in the last row of this table: https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2020-16559/p-555 https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2020-16559/p-555

colejohnson66 4y ago
So, $100-400 depending on the size (CFR section 1.16(u)). That feels... excessive, but if processing a DOCX is automatic and PDFs require humans (I'm assuming), it makes sense.

lesuorac 4y ago

I don't think you submitted the link you wanted to. I see https://unblock.federalregister.gov/ https://unblock.federalregister.gov/ which doesn't take me anywhere useful.

zinekeller 4y ago
Sorry, I thought the second time (!) I've submitted this that the HN filter didn't mess up the link. Here it is (https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/04/28/2022-09027/filing-patent-applications-in-docx-format https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/04/28/2022-09...), hopefully! In case that the overagressive HN filer ate it again, it's https www-federalregister-gov documents/2022/04/28/2022-09027/filing-patent-applications-in-docx-format Also dang, recently HN's filters are too aggressive - from sentence-casing USPTO (to Uspto which isn't even a pronounceable acronym) to removing Twitter's search queries.
- altairprime 4y ago
  You should email dang using the footer Contact link about this thread, so that he sees it.
bsimpson 4y ago
That explains why I get a 503 every time I pass the captcha.

emgeee 4y ago

The fee is $400

apocalyptic0n3 4y ago

I've been working on some tools that integrate with USPTO (both from the application side and the validation side) for quite a few years now and they've been making a TON of formatting changes recently. A lot of their PDF forms have changed, they're requiring XML versions of all data we submit, they're handling classifications differently, etc. Their process always felt like it was stuck in the past and being handled manually by humans before and now it feels like they're moving everything toward automated intake and initial reviews. I imagine this change is for the same reasons, and that's a hefty fee to force it. This also likely means I will need to rework our systems to spit out docx instead of/in addition to PDFs, which will be a nightmare to do. So that's fun.

peteradio 4y ago
I'm a masochist in need of work.
MrLeap 4y ago
The consolation is that, if I remember correctly, docx is just a zip file containing xml. I made an xlsx exporter in actionscript3 (lol) years ago and it worked like this. What I ultimately did was made a "template" document, and my code just injected strings into key spots, zipped it up in memory and gave it to you as a file.xlsx. Probably took me 3 days? I didn't have the benefit of libraries so I imagine this is significantly easier in less hobbled environments, nodejs or whatever probably has a kitchen sink package to do it.
- lofatdairy 4y ago
  That's exactly right. There are definitely nodejs docx templating packages (I've worked on codebases that used them in the past), but they're certainly not required provided your documents are reasonably simple. If anything, generating a pdf from various input files/structured text has been a much harder task. We generated docx files to allow for easy modification by non-technical staff, but to generate a pdf we had to use a headless instance of libreoffice since pandoc was struggling with the rendering.
barelycompetent 4y ago

nazgulsenpai 4y ago

I was wondering why docx format would be chosen instead of PDF but they answer it pretty completely here if anyone else is interested: https://www.uspto.gov/patents/docx https://www.uspto.gov/patents/docx

jedberg 4y ago
It looks like most of those translate to "We build our automated systems around DOCX so you get all our features if you use it". But it doesn't really say why they chose to build on docx.
- apocalyptic0n3 4y ago
  > But it doesn't really say why they chose to build on docx. Having worked directly with their teams in the past (although not on this), a lot of their systems seemed to evolve naturally over time based on the needs present. In that industry, a large majority of the documents being passed back and forth are DOCX. So my semi-educated guess is someone built a system to handle some simple intake tasks for DOCX applications because a large majority already were, it evolved over a few years, and when they finally decided to fully automate the process, they decided to build upon what they have which only supported DOCX and it was cheaper/easier to mandate everyone submit in that format than to build a new system or add support for others.
  - jedberg 4y ago
    This makes the most sense.
  - ramoz 4y ago
    I get that you worked with them it seems, but would argue that your hunch is wrong here. Regulatory processes, business systems, and international integration are plagued by PDF OCR complexities. OCR creates systemic issues and an anatomy of complex system architectures. Im sure XML is a typical downstream for parsing anyways. Use DOCX to enhance quality of the overall scope of integrations.

nullc 4y ago

Machine learning is coming for the examiners jobs. :P

pessimizer 4y ago
You don't need machine learning to say yes to everything.
- nullc 4y ago
  now now, the examiners often say no a couple times before saying yes.
thallium205 4y ago
Probably one of the easiest but also higher paying jobs of the federal government. They seriously work maybe one day a week.
- _ggwa 4y ago
  Current USPTO patent examiner here. The job is regarded as difficult by the vast majority of examiners, as it's based on a quota system and examiners don't get enough time to do a quality job. I don't know of a single examiner who works only one day a week. Many work unpaid overtime to meet their quotas, euphemistically called "voluntary overtime", which is rarely voluntary. There's about 50% attrition in the first year for new hires right now. That sound easy to you? I don't know any other job that hires white-collar professionals with such high attrition. I encourage anyone who believes being a patent examiner is an easy job to read this subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/patentexaminer/ https://www.reddit.com/r/patentexaminer/ You can find patent examiners who say that being a patent examiner is relatively easy. These folks typically changed from a notoriously difficult job in law or academia. So it's only relatively easier. Beyond these cases, there do seem to be some examiners who have an easy time, but that's quite rare in my experience, and I'd question the quality of their work. As for why I took the job: I came from academia, so the job is easier in some respects. The quota isn't entirely bad: It's hard to meet, yes, but it's also mostly objective. If an examiner's numbers are good, the USPTO is happy with them. That contrasts with my experience in academia, where one's job performance is often subjective. If a researcher's boss decides they don't like the researcher for whatever reason (office politics, the researcher is socially awkward, etc.), there might be nothing the researcher could do to recover from that. The job also does give me a lot of freedom in other ways: I can live mostly anywhere I want to, I'm not expected to work all the time (production numbers beat looking busy by working all the time), there are few IP restrictions (aside from that I can't get a US patent), etc. The main problems for me are that the quota is too high and that I don't care for the technology I'm assigned (though the technology could be a lot worse). (It should go without saying that this comment is my own opinion and not that of the USPTO, US govt., my previous employers, etc.)

NotYourLawyer 4y ago

Can’t wait to see what kinds of unredacted metadata people start uploading without a thought.

nfriedly 4y ago
It sounds like they're going to try to catch and remove that - one of the bullet points under DOCX Benefits on https://www.uspto.gov/patents/docx https://www.uspto.gov/patents/docx reads: > Privacy: provides automatic metadata detection (e.g. author and comments) and removal features to support the submission of only substantive information in the DOCX file. And, then further down in the FAQ it says: > What happens to the metadata in DOCX files? > Metadata is generally removed by applicants prior to submission. However, if metadata is found during the validation process, it is automatically removed prior to submission. Examples of metadata include author, company, last modified by, etc. The only information that is preserved is the size, page count, and word count. > Outgoing DOCX documents (i.e. Office actions) from the USPTO to applicants will also have metadata removed.

nfriedly 4y ago

Note: the correct link is https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/04/28/2022-09027/filing-patent-applications-in-docx-format https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/04/28/2022-09... The fee is $100, $200, or $400 depending on the size of the document.

datapolitical 4y ago
Depending on the size of the entity. Small organizations qualify for a discount in filing fees. https://www.uspto.gov/patents/laws/micro-entity-status https://www.uspto.gov/patents/laws/micro-entity-status

aaaddaaaaa1112 4y ago

deathanatos 4y ago

> Due to aggressive automated scraping of FederalRegister.gov and eCFR.gov, programmatic access to these sites is limited to access to our extensive developer APIs. Apparently. Then a captcha and a button to request access, which if you complete, returns a 500 Internal Server Error. … my tax dollars are hard at work, I see. The Wayback Machine hasn't got a snapshot, either, it seems.

batmaniam 4y ago
Seriously, I've had my share of horror stories on government systems. Do they just not dogfood their own product? Where is their QA team? It's atrocious how basic tasks are so broken all the time.
- ceeplusplus 4y ago
  Government can't afford to hire the competent talent, only the scraps after everyone else (even the consulting bodyshops) are done. The top GS pay bracket is lower than entry level engineers at many companies (not just FAANG, but also defense, F500 companies, etc.)
  - CobrastanJorji 4y ago
    One of the many things that I found tempting about working for the U.S. Digital Service was that, while the GS-15 pay grade is definitely way less than I'd make in the private sector, my spouse's family is military/government and the difference between "hippy programming thingy" and "has a GS-15/O-6 job" would've been night and day. The one puts me in a pile of stereotypes, but the other says "oh, he's basically the bureaucratic equivalent of a Captain, that's very respectable."
    - ceeplusplus 4y ago
      Different circles I guess. While my spouse's family considers government jobs to be stable and somewhat respectable, there is a lot more respect for FAANG and other high paying jobs. One is respectable, the other is prestigious.

xvilka 4y ago

Why require only proprietary format? It's a pity they wouldn't allow ODF.

dingle_thunk 4y ago
Office Open XML (docx), to be fair, is a non-proprietary standard. Microsoft has been forced into that by the EU; and they keep messing with it, but it is actually technically "open". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML
- xvilka 4y ago
  It is open only on paper - at least half of it MSO-specific compatibility cruft, plus real documents often contain binary blobs that aren't described in the standard. Name "open" is a lie in this case. Moreover, it's made in ISO only because of corruption of these standardization bodies. It wasn't even properly reviewed!
  - phendrenad2 4y ago
    Seems to work in LibreOffice, which is open-source just fine.
    - xvilka 4y ago
      It's completely unrelated. LibreOffice can open most completely binary DOC or XLS as well, they were just reverse engineered. It has nothing to do with openness.
      - jesprenj 4y ago
        Correlation does not imply causation. The fact that Libreoffice can open binary proprietary formats does not automatically imply that all formats it uses are binary and proprietary. DOCX is an open standard.

moistly 4y ago

If you’re not perfectionist about layout precision, MS Word provides the same meta-data encoding function through the application of style (‘this is a heading’, ‘this is a definition’, etc), as one can get from structured document layout applications like FrameMaker, Ventura, InDesign, Quark. If the PTO has provided an MS Word Style Template and a document schema (document template), it is dead easy to extract a useful XML encoding for further analysis. There is a lot you can ignore in an MS Word file. Dead easy to write XPaths and XQueries that provide an API for the original DOCX document collection.