4 ms·

Living standards improved for some (a minority), worsened for others (the majority). Everyone used to be kinda-poor; now, suddenly some were well-off and others

Living standards improved for some (a minority), worsened for others (the majority). Everyone used to be kinda-poor; now, suddenly some were well-off and others became truly impoverished. But a big change was that in the 1990s all kinds of desirable consumer goods became available to anyone with money. In the 1980s, money was not enough: goods were simply not available for sale, they were distributed by special people or only in certain places in entirely insufficient quantity, and to get them, you needed special knowledge and personal connections and lots of time wasted. In the 1990s, it was much simpler; as long as you had some legal or not-so-legal way to make money, you could buy whatever you wanted.

wawjgreen 4y ago
that is not true. I lived in in USSR for five years--in the late 70's--and your statement does not conform to the reality I experienced for five years. Everyone was kinda middle-class, and nobody was overly rich. The malls were full to the tilt, the prices within reach for everybody no matter their occupation (like Walden Two, by Skinner). Education was free, hospitals were free, people had house, car, etc. The only things you could not freely buy were some of the "designer" goods that belong to the "want" category (not "need"). And I also recall that the USSR propaganda was working full-time to dissuade the common folk to avoid the trappings of the Capitalist societies. As for consumer goods? bread disappeared (my father went there in 90's and he told me), milk disappeared, long queues for basic goods. Yeah maybe MacDonald's and expensive shopping bags and jeans arrived--but these were not what people need to live a good life. Their own clothes were fashionable and durable enough, the people were voracious bookworms who did not care about lobotomy and a big a*, like they do now on Instagram.
- tetromino_ 4y ago
  I apologize, but your post is so far out of the reality that I, my family, and my friends lived, that I am not sure we are talking about the same country. > The malls Where did you find a mall in the USSR? I do not remember even the concept of such a thing existing in the 1980s. There were only department stores (универмаги). I suspect you may be misremembering and mean a large department store located in an >1M population city. > were full to the tilt Full of goods or of people? Were those people from out of town, taking a day-long train ride because in their small towns/villages there was little for sale besides vegetables and bread? > the prices within reach for everybody no matter their occupation For an ordinary engineer, a new color TV set cost something like 6 months of gross income. A set of bookshelves (стенка) was 1.5 years. A new car (Zhiguli) was around 5-6 years - and even if you had the money, you would spend years waiting for your turn to have the right to buy one! > Education was free, hospitals were free, people had house, car, etc. Education - sure, that was a true Soviet achievement. Hospitals, while free, were horrific. Housing was heavily subsidized, but there was a terrible shortage of it; it wasn't uncommon for whole families to live in one room of a communal apartment (sharing the apartment's one bathroom with a half dozen other families). As for cars - a car was a luxury (although attainable with some effort) and a status symbol. > The only things you could not freely buy were some of the "designer" goods that belong to the "want" category (not "need"). Replace "designer" with "not falling apart the day after purchase and not looking 20 years out of fashion". > And I also recall that the USSR propaganda was working full-time to dissuade the common folk to avoid the trappings of the Capitalist societies. The propaganda kinda lost its effectiveness after the 1960s or so. Certainly by the 1980s few, if anyone, believed it.
  - Nitrolo 4y ago
    Your use of the word gross income is interesting, what wasthe difference to the net income in that time period? Were salaries taxed? I assumed you'd get a net income only becauae if everyone's already working for the state, what would be the point of an income tax?
  - wawjgreen 4y ago
    Yes by "mall" I mean Univermag--the Macmillan defines a mall as "a large building with a lot of shops, restaurants, and sometimes a cinema" which satisfies almost all commercial structures in the USSR. Thus in my definition, the word SHOP is included and there were myriads of those, all full of goods (I cant' speak for all regions but it was so in Moscow, Odessa, Tashkent where I lived)--so for proof of elsewhere maybe you can head on to VK.com and see documented proof of pictures taken by common people, of the abundance. "Gross" income? hehehe. In USSR? I'll let that slide. Wow then according to your economics, they would have been working their a$ses off just to buy a TV--which is not true. Why everybody had a TV then if it was so expensive? If books were mere kopeks, why would TV be so expensive? from a CPI point of view, your logic does not make sense. An engineer, 6 months of income for a TV? That's a ridiculous price-to-income ratio ANYWHERE in any ANY era. My father was on scholarship subsidies, which is way less than what an engineer earned then, and we even had a TV, a projector, a radio, a cassette player, and what not. So how did WE buy it then?? <<Hospitals, while free, were horrific>> are you sure? How can education be top-notch but hospitals horrific? the two are inter-connected. Better education means better doctors. What was horrific about it? It was free! <<Replace "designer" with "not falling apart the day after purchase>> are you sure about that? Most of the Russian stuff from early 80's still working, not so much the new-age "designer" things that have planned obsolescence (look it up in the management textbooks). The quality of textile, toys, electronics, almost everything was better than anywhere in the world (with the exception of cars--but that was only because the Soviets were pragmatists and didn't care about luxury--a Bourgeois concept.) quality was never a problem. << The propaganda kinda lost its effectiveness after the 1960s or so. Certainly by the 1980s few, if anyone, believed it. >> Once again, I wonder how you came to that conclusion. Up until Brezhnev was alive, almost every Soviet Russian believed and followed the doctrines of their government, and were proud to do so. Only after Garbageov did cracks appear probably because of the sell-outs and traitors who were promised the rose gardens of a Capitalist Utopia. Even so, 90% of Russians today regret (see VK.com for proof) that they lost the Soviet era superpower status and high standard of living.
- attentive 4y ago
  That's utter bullshit. I bet it was great being foreigner in USSR. And foreigner cozy with communist party at that (there weren't other kind). But for natives it wasn't all this rosy communist USSR propaganda you're trying to convince people who lived it.
d0mine 4y ago
It is not like there are just two options. The inequality distribution could have been different (total, relative). It was not necessary to destroy the economy (even today, after 30 years Russia is behind) and more importantly the society was destroyed too (the lowest level of trust https://www.edelman.com/trust/2020-trust-barometer https://www.edelman.com/trust/2020-trust-barometer ).

wawjgreen 4y ago

that is not true. I lived in in USSR for five years--in the late 70's--and your statement does not conform to the reality I experienced for five years. Everyone was kinda middle-class, and nobody was overly rich. The malls were full to the tilt, the prices within reach for everybody no matter their occupation (like Walden Two, by Skinner). Education was free, hospitals were free, people had house, car, etc. The only things you could not freely buy were some of the "designer" goods that belong to the "want" category (not "need"). And I also recall that the USSR propaganda was working full-time to dissuade the common folk to avoid the trappings of the Capitalist societies. As for consumer goods? bread disappeared (my father went there in 90's and he told me), milk disappeared, long queues for basic goods. Yeah maybe MacDonald's and expensive shopping bags and jeans arrived--but these were not what people need to live a good life. Their own clothes were fashionable and durable enough, the people were voracious bookworms who did not care about lobotomy and a big a*, like they do now on Instagram.

tetromino_ 4y ago
I apologize, but your post is so far out of the reality that I, my family, and my friends lived, that I am not sure we are talking about the same country. > The malls Where did you find a mall in the USSR? I do not remember even the concept of such a thing existing in the 1980s. There were only department stores (универмаги). I suspect you may be misremembering and mean a large department store located in an >1M population city. > were full to the tilt Full of goods or of people? Were those people from out of town, taking a day-long train ride because in their small towns/villages there was little for sale besides vegetables and bread? > the prices within reach for everybody no matter their occupation For an ordinary engineer, a new color TV set cost something like 6 months of gross income. A set of bookshelves (стенка) was 1.5 years. A new car (Zhiguli) was around 5-6 years - and even if you had the money, you would spend years waiting for your turn to have the right to buy one! > Education was free, hospitals were free, people had house, car, etc. Education - sure, that was a true Soviet achievement. Hospitals, while free, were horrific. Housing was heavily subsidized, but there was a terrible shortage of it; it wasn't uncommon for whole families to live in one room of a communal apartment (sharing the apartment's one bathroom with a half dozen other families). As for cars - a car was a luxury (although attainable with some effort) and a status symbol. > The only things you could not freely buy were some of the "designer" goods that belong to the "want" category (not "need"). Replace "designer" with "not falling apart the day after purchase and not looking 20 years out of fashion". > And I also recall that the USSR propaganda was working full-time to dissuade the common folk to avoid the trappings of the Capitalist societies. The propaganda kinda lost its effectiveness after the 1960s or so. Certainly by the 1980s few, if anyone, believed it.
- Nitrolo 4y ago
  Your use of the word gross income is interesting, what wasthe difference to the net income in that time period? Were salaries taxed? I assumed you'd get a net income only becauae if everyone's already working for the state, what would be the point of an income tax?
- wawjgreen 4y ago
  Yes by "mall" I mean Univermag--the Macmillan defines a mall as "a large building with a lot of shops, restaurants, and sometimes a cinema" which satisfies almost all commercial structures in the USSR. Thus in my definition, the word SHOP is included and there were myriads of those, all full of goods (I cant' speak for all regions but it was so in Moscow, Odessa, Tashkent where I lived)--so for proof of elsewhere maybe you can head on to VK.com and see documented proof of pictures taken by common people, of the abundance. "Gross" income? hehehe. In USSR? I'll let that slide. Wow then according to your economics, they would have been working their a$ses off just to buy a TV--which is not true. Why everybody had a TV then if it was so expensive? If books were mere kopeks, why would TV be so expensive? from a CPI point of view, your logic does not make sense. An engineer, 6 months of income for a TV? That's a ridiculous price-to-income ratio ANYWHERE in any ANY era. My father was on scholarship subsidies, which is way less than what an engineer earned then, and we even had a TV, a projector, a radio, a cassette player, and what not. So how did WE buy it then?? <<Hospitals, while free, were horrific>> are you sure? How can education be top-notch but hospitals horrific? the two are inter-connected. Better education means better doctors. What was horrific about it? It was free! <<Replace "designer" with "not falling apart the day after purchase>> are you sure about that? Most of the Russian stuff from early 80's still working, not so much the new-age "designer" things that have planned obsolescence (look it up in the management textbooks). The quality of textile, toys, electronics, almost everything was better than anywhere in the world (with the exception of cars--but that was only because the Soviets were pragmatists and didn't care about luxury--a Bourgeois concept.) quality was never a problem. << The propaganda kinda lost its effectiveness after the 1960s or so. Certainly by the 1980s few, if anyone, believed it. >> Once again, I wonder how you came to that conclusion. Up until Brezhnev was alive, almost every Soviet Russian believed and followed the doctrines of their government, and were proud to do so. Only after Garbageov did cracks appear probably because of the sell-outs and traitors who were promised the rose gardens of a Capitalist Utopia. Even so, 90% of Russians today regret (see VK.com for proof) that they lost the Soviet era superpower status and high standard of living.
attentive 4y ago
That's utter bullshit. I bet it was great being foreigner in USSR. And foreigner cozy with communist party at that (there weren't other kind). But for natives it wasn't all this rosy communist USSR propaganda you're trying to convince people who lived it.

d0mine 4y ago

It is not like there are just two options. The inequality distribution could have been different (total, relative). It was not necessary to destroy the economy (even today, after 30 years Russia is behind) and more importantly the society was destroyed too (the lowest level of trust https://www.edelman.com/trust/2020-trust-barometer https://www.edelman.com/trust/2020-trust-barometer ).