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Are You a ‘Digital Nomad’? European Locales Want Remote Workers

82 points by jkuria 4y ago

zoba 4y ago
List of places that will pay you to move there: https://www.makemymove.com/ https://www.makemymove.com/ . (I think US only)
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  Great site but they should have a star system or ranking or ratings. Some of the deals are really weak like $6100 value for moving to this city https://www.makemymove.com/get-paid/ponca-city-oklahoma https://www.makemymove.com/get-paid/ponca-city-oklahoma where the incentives besides coworking are all unimportant.
- VyseofArcadia 4y ago
  Cool site, but disappointing there are 0 offers in the region of the US in which I want to live.
  - benji-york 4y ago
    It occurs to me that from an incentives perspective that makes sense (assuming your preferences reflect the majority).
    - VyseofArcadia 4y ago
      I mean, there's small towns in every region of the US. I'm a little surprised that there's nothing in New England, because it's basically all small towns outside of the Boston metro and Worcester.
      - __derek__ 4y ago
        Vermont is on there[1], although it looks like it might be paused. Rochester[2] is, too, although that's not quite New England. [1]: https://www.makemymove.com/get-paid/vermont https://www.makemymove.com/get-paid/vermont [2]: https://www.makemymove.com/get-paid/rochester-ny https://www.makemymove.com/get-paid/rochester-ny
deaddabe 4y ago
> Many digital nomads are skilled knowledge workers who earn well beyond the €2,000-€3,500 monthly income requirements of most European digital visa programs—a big reason so many countries and towns are trying to lure them. So, what gives as an European SW developer in this income bracket? 1. Go to US 2. Negotiate US salary 3. Come back to your native village, hopefully with "well beyond" money 4. Profit? Or just directly work for an US company, I guess.
- atlasunshrugged 4y ago
  Why would a European SW developer need one of these visas for Europe? Also, I think plenty do make more than this, no? At least in Berlin I'm sure many of the people I worked with netted at least double this.
  - ousta 4y ago
- danwee 4y ago
  It's quite difficult as a European SW developer living in Europe to work for US companies. It's either one of these options: 1. US company has an office in EU, so you can work as an employee. Chances are the company is not paying you the US wages, but European ones... at this point, what's the benefit of working for the American company? 2. US company doesn't have an office in Europe. So either you work as a contractor for them (and that's a lot of hassle for a lot of people who are used to work as an employee) or the US company uses a third-party company to hire you as an employee (and that's a hassle for the US company, so many don't offer this) 3. US company is willing to hire contractors living in Europe... but then you have to be a contractor (personally, I don't like it) and you have to adapt to their TZ (personally, I don't want that). As many have said before, in Europe the salaries for software engineers come in different "tracks". You have the usual 25K-40K-60K EUR/year for junior-medior-seniors, but you also have the 50K-80K-100K EUR/year (becoming more common at least in western europe), and the not unheard of 90K-120K EUR/year for seniors in some companies.
ramesh31 4y ago
How do taxes work? If I, as a US citizen, move from the US to Netherlands and maintain my remote US employment, will I have to pay 50% income tax?
- rizach8 4y ago
  In Europe (and I think most of the world) you are taxed from the location you are "living". Often this can be bypassed for a while (6-12 months). While you may have 50% income tax in Netherlands. The cost of living may balance that out. For example by not needing a car, ever.
  - TrueGeek 4y ago
    Sadly in the US were taxed no matter where we live. We have agreements with a lot (most?) countries though so we get "credit" for taxes paid to the country we are living in. The cost of living definitely balances things out. I just wish The Netherlands would change their stance on dual citizenship.
    - rizach8 4y ago
      The hardest part in Europe is that after a certain income bracket, your finances barely change.
    - markus92 4y ago
      Marry a Dutch citizen and you can keep your other citizenship ;)
      - TrueGeek 4y ago
        My wife is super not a fan of that plan. The alternative is to do a work visa and then resident visa until we're 65 and then we can "opt" for citizenship which does allow for dual citizenship. It's a much longer route though. UK is just easier for multiple reasons but comes with it's own bag of worms.
draw_down 4y ago
danwee 4y ago
> Malta rolled out a “nomad residence permit” late last year that allows non-European Union remote workers earning at least €2,700 ($2,755) a month to live on the Mediterranean island nation for up to a year. (Digital workers from elsewhere in the EU aren’t included in the program, as they don’t need a permit to work in Malta.) The Maltese government has since processed more than 400 applicants, the majority from the U.S. and the United Kingdom. But, if you go to Malta and live there more than 6 months per year, and work as a software engineer, you will have to work for a company based on Malta... unless the company you are working for has a branch in Malta or is using an intermediate company to hire you. Same for any other country in Europe. Many think that "Oh, I'll work for a German company earning German money while working from a beach in Portugal". Well, that's definitely possible, but the vast majority of German companies hiring remotely: a) do not have a branch in Portugal, and b) do not use intermediate companies to hire talent. So, more often than not, if you want to work from Portugal more than 6 months per year your pool of companies to apply for will be mostly Portuguese ones. Also, even if you think "oh well, then I'll work from Germany 6 months and 1 day per year, and from Portugal the rest of the year", that may not work for some companies. Some companies, allow you to work from abroad (within the EU) but for a maximum of 3 months (becaues of health insurance issues). All of this applies if you are an employee. For contractors, that's different.
- switch007 4y ago
  The other issue is the risk of your employer having Permanence Establishment in a new country which creates corporation tax obligations.
- rtpg 4y ago
  Isn’t the usual solution for this to just be a contractor? Everyone I know who remotes from a different country is just doing this. Maybe there’s some rules I don’t know
  - withinboredom 4y ago
    In Most countries of the EU (if not all), you are required to have more than one or two clients to legally be a contractor, otherwise you are a “fake employee.”
carlivar 4y ago
Seems like current sky-high energy/electricity prices may put a damper on this.
- briantakita 4y ago
  Along with the civil unrest...
  - upupandup 4y ago
    or in the case of Paris, extreme tax/socialist policies/reckless immigration creating uncivil environment. Seriously, very few places I find in Europe that is attractive now, lot of places in Asia have caught up or exceed in value.
clove 4y ago
One of my problems as a "digital nomad" is my income is not stable. Does that make me ineligible for such programs? Also, for digital nomads with families, how do we get local rates for things such as children's medical fees, schools, etc.? If I'm living in a country on a tourist visa, can I even register for these sorts of things?
- lm28469 4y ago
  > Also, for digital nomads with families, how do we get local rates for things such as children's medical fees, schools, etc.? You don't, because these things are paid by local taxes, which you most likely don't pay. You can't have it all
dabedee 4y ago
I think the term "nomad" is probably not applicable in this context given that those countries are offering longer-term residencies. In my view, digital nomadism is the idea of being to move around more often and setting up shop anywhere. It also usually promotes taking non-ecological means of transportation (i.e. planes) and can lead to the replacement of the local population with "digital nomads" renting on Airbnb.
cecilpl2 4y ago
My company has a program where I can work for up to one consecutive month from anywhere in the world where I'm "legally allowed to work". I've had difficulty finding out which countries have visa programs that would allow me to work for a foreign company while there for a short stay. A tourist visa generally doesn't allow this, but working visas are generally tailored to working for local companies, and longer stays. Does anyone know what the search terms are for this? Or better yet is there a curated list somewhere?
- withinboredom 4y ago
  That’s because virtually every country on earth only allows you to be an employee of a company with a local entity OR a contractor. Thus you are only “legally” allowed to work if your employer has an entity in that country and hires you from that entity. Otherwise, you MUST be a contractor.
Proven 4y ago
upupandup 4y ago
For Canadian nomads: can't one just move to Malaysia/Jersey and not pay taxes after the tax residency kicks in? Taxes are ridiculous in Canada I wish East Asia was more proactive with digital nomads. For example, Japan is notoriously tough to get in. Korea offers visas for Korean diaspora but not much for foreigners. My dream would be remote working in Japan but they still rely on fax machines and stupidly outdated formal procedures, it was like living in the 90s, but I loved it while I was there shortly. Many foreigners I saw were working remotely but never reported it on their "tourist" visa. I wonder if this is sustainable.

82 points by jkuria 4y ago

zoba 4y ago

List of places that will pay you to move there: https://www.makemymove.com/ https://www.makemymove.com/ . (I think US only)

skinnymuch 4y ago
Great site but they should have a star system or ranking or ratings. Some of the deals are really weak like $6100 value for moving to this city https://www.makemymove.com/get-paid/ponca-city-oklahoma https://www.makemymove.com/get-paid/ponca-city-oklahoma where the incentives besides coworking are all unimportant.
VyseofArcadia 4y ago
Cool site, but disappointing there are 0 offers in the region of the US in which I want to live.
- benji-york 4y ago
  It occurs to me that from an incentives perspective that makes sense (assuming your preferences reflect the majority).
  - VyseofArcadia 4y ago
    I mean, there's small towns in every region of the US. I'm a little surprised that there's nothing in New England, because it's basically all small towns outside of the Boston metro and Worcester.
    - __derek__ 4y ago
      Vermont is on there[1], although it looks like it might be paused. Rochester[2] is, too, although that's not quite New England. [1]: https://www.makemymove.com/get-paid/vermont https://www.makemymove.com/get-paid/vermont [2]: https://www.makemymove.com/get-paid/rochester-ny https://www.makemymove.com/get-paid/rochester-ny

deaddabe 4y ago

> Many digital nomads are skilled knowledge workers who earn well beyond the €2,000-€3,500 monthly income requirements of most European digital visa programs—a big reason so many countries and towns are trying to lure them. So, what gives as an European SW developer in this income bracket? 1. Go to US 2. Negotiate US salary 3. Come back to your native village, hopefully with "well beyond" money 4. Profit? Or just directly work for an US company, I guess.

atlasunshrugged 4y ago
Why would a European SW developer need one of these visas for Europe? Also, I think plenty do make more than this, no? At least in Berlin I'm sure many of the people I worked with netted at least double this.
- ousta 4y ago
danwee 4y ago
It's quite difficult as a European SW developer living in Europe to work for US companies. It's either one of these options: 1. US company has an office in EU, so you can work as an employee. Chances are the company is not paying you the US wages, but European ones... at this point, what's the benefit of working for the American company? 2. US company doesn't have an office in Europe. So either you work as a contractor for them (and that's a lot of hassle for a lot of people who are used to work as an employee) or the US company uses a third-party company to hire you as an employee (and that's a hassle for the US company, so many don't offer this) 3. US company is willing to hire contractors living in Europe... but then you have to be a contractor (personally, I don't like it) and you have to adapt to their TZ (personally, I don't want that). As many have said before, in Europe the salaries for software engineers come in different "tracks". You have the usual 25K-40K-60K EUR/year for junior-medior-seniors, but you also have the 50K-80K-100K EUR/year (becoming more common at least in western europe), and the not unheard of 90K-120K EUR/year for seniors in some companies.

ramesh31 4y ago

How do taxes work? If I, as a US citizen, move from the US to Netherlands and maintain my remote US employment, will I have to pay 50% income tax?

rizach8 4y ago
In Europe (and I think most of the world) you are taxed from the location you are "living". Often this can be bypassed for a while (6-12 months). While you may have 50% income tax in Netherlands. The cost of living may balance that out. For example by not needing a car, ever.
- TrueGeek 4y ago
  Sadly in the US were taxed no matter where we live. We have agreements with a lot (most?) countries though so we get "credit" for taxes paid to the country we are living in. The cost of living definitely balances things out. I just wish The Netherlands would change their stance on dual citizenship.
  - rizach8 4y ago
    The hardest part in Europe is that after a certain income bracket, your finances barely change.
  - markus92 4y ago
    Marry a Dutch citizen and you can keep your other citizenship ;)
    - TrueGeek 4y ago
      My wife is super not a fan of that plan. The alternative is to do a work visa and then resident visa until we're 65 and then we can "opt" for citizenship which does allow for dual citizenship. It's a much longer route though. UK is just easier for multiple reasons but comes with it's own bag of worms.

draw_down 4y ago

danwee 4y ago

> Malta rolled out a “nomad residence permit” late last year that allows non-European Union remote workers earning at least €2,700 ($2,755) a month to live on the Mediterranean island nation for up to a year. (Digital workers from elsewhere in the EU aren’t included in the program, as they don’t need a permit to work in Malta.) The Maltese government has since processed more than 400 applicants, the majority from the U.S. and the United Kingdom. But, if you go to Malta and live there more than 6 months per year, and work as a software engineer, you will have to work for a company based on Malta... unless the company you are working for has a branch in Malta or is using an intermediate company to hire you. Same for any other country in Europe. Many think that "Oh, I'll work for a German company earning German money while working from a beach in Portugal". Well, that's definitely possible, but the vast majority of German companies hiring remotely: a) do not have a branch in Portugal, and b) do not use intermediate companies to hire talent. So, more often than not, if you want to work from Portugal more than 6 months per year your pool of companies to apply for will be mostly Portuguese ones. Also, even if you think "oh well, then I'll work from Germany 6 months and 1 day per year, and from Portugal the rest of the year", that may not work for some companies. Some companies, allow you to work from abroad (within the EU) but for a maximum of 3 months (becaues of health insurance issues). All of this applies if you are an employee. For contractors, that's different.

switch007 4y ago
The other issue is the risk of your employer having Permanence Establishment in a new country which creates corporation tax obligations.
rtpg 4y ago
Isn’t the usual solution for this to just be a contractor? Everyone I know who remotes from a different country is just doing this. Maybe there’s some rules I don’t know
- withinboredom 4y ago
  In Most countries of the EU (if not all), you are required to have more than one or two clients to legally be a contractor, otherwise you are a “fake employee.”

carlivar 4y ago

Seems like current sky-high energy/electricity prices may put a damper on this.

briantakita 4y ago
Along with the civil unrest...
- upupandup 4y ago
  or in the case of Paris, extreme tax/socialist policies/reckless immigration creating uncivil environment. Seriously, very few places I find in Europe that is attractive now, lot of places in Asia have caught up or exceed in value.

clove 4y ago

One of my problems as a "digital nomad" is my income is not stable. Does that make me ineligible for such programs? Also, for digital nomads with families, how do we get local rates for things such as children's medical fees, schools, etc.? If I'm living in a country on a tourist visa, can I even register for these sorts of things?

lm28469 4y ago
> Also, for digital nomads with families, how do we get local rates for things such as children's medical fees, schools, etc.? You don't, because these things are paid by local taxes, which you most likely don't pay. You can't have it all

dabedee 4y ago

I think the term "nomad" is probably not applicable in this context given that those countries are offering longer-term residencies. In my view, digital nomadism is the idea of being to move around more often and setting up shop anywhere. It also usually promotes taking non-ecological means of transportation (i.e. planes) and can lead to the replacement of the local population with "digital nomads" renting on Airbnb.

cecilpl2 4y ago

My company has a program where I can work for up to one consecutive month from anywhere in the world where I'm "legally allowed to work". I've had difficulty finding out which countries have visa programs that would allow me to work for a foreign company while there for a short stay. A tourist visa generally doesn't allow this, but working visas are generally tailored to working for local companies, and longer stays. Does anyone know what the search terms are for this? Or better yet is there a curated list somewhere?

withinboredom 4y ago
That’s because virtually every country on earth only allows you to be an employee of a company with a local entity OR a contractor. Thus you are only “legally” allowed to work if your employer has an entity in that country and hires you from that entity. Otherwise, you MUST be a contractor.

Proven 4y ago

upupandup 4y ago

For Canadian nomads: can't one just move to Malaysia/Jersey and not pay taxes after the tax residency kicks in? Taxes are ridiculous in Canada I wish East Asia was more proactive with digital nomads. For example, Japan is notoriously tough to get in. Korea offers visas for Korean diaspora but not much for foreigners. My dream would be remote working in Japan but they still rely on fax machines and stupidly outdated formal procedures, it was like living in the 90s, but I loved it while I was there shortly. Many foreigners I saw were working remotely but never reported it on their "tourist" visa. I wonder if this is sustainable.