5 ms·

I heard the most bizarre & unexpected opinion first-hand from an obgyn. Prior to this I was firmly in the nurture camp of nature/nurture, but this obgyn's opini

by nunb 4y ago

I heard the most bizarre & unexpected opinion first-hand from an obgyn. Prior to this I was firmly in the nurture camp of nature/nurture, but this obgyn's opinion on adoptions shocked me out of my complacency. I am hoping Sapolsky's latest book may shed some light on the subject without the Wade/Murray "bell curve" implications.

decafninja 4y ago
Curious as to what you mean. I think you're implying that the personality makeup of the adopted child that comes from his/her biological parents is not to be underestimated? Is that really a questionable or controversial topic though? The thought has occurred to me. I would describe both my wife and I as being stable mannered and not prone to rash decisions. Odds are a biological child of ours might resemble that personality. I also acknowledge a child we adopt may have had biological parents with very different personalities than us, and therefore the child may be very different from us in personality. At the same time, I don't believe that just because the child's biological parents might have been wild and crazy, the child is doomed to the same fate even with our care.
- JamesBarney 4y ago
  > At the same time, I don't believe that just because the child's biological parents might have been wild and crazy, the child is doomed to the same fate even with our care Tell me you haven't read many behavioral genetics papers without telling me you haven't read many behavioral genetics papers :).
- d0100 4y ago
  Some wild and crazy behavior comes by because of genetic "features" that translate into mental issues But I do believe nurture can help to prevent or exacerbate those issues
random314 4y ago
What was the opinion?
- nunb 4y ago
  adoptee turned to hard drugs (opiods) in his teens. the opinion was: what do you expect, the father was an addict too. at the time I was shocked as I was so firmly in the nurture camp.
  - girvo 4y ago
    Addiction, and specifically OUD is complicated, but there is real evidence that genetics plays a sizeable role in the physiological dependence side of it. However the main risk factor for trying and then abusing opioids, for example, is trauma, typically but not only in childhood. Basically, it’s both nature and nurture, as most things are. Where the percentages lie for both, I don’t think we know yet.
    - nunb 4y ago
      yes, I agree with you. It's just at the time I was unaware that brain chemistry could be genetically dependent; although as you say that's pre-disposition, and the trigger can be trauma, and sometimes knowing you are adopted can be the source of that trauma, thus triggering the behaviour.
    - JamesBarney 4y ago
      Trauma is deeply intertwined with genetics. For instance parents who have genes that increase impulsivity are more likely to e beat their kids exposing them to trauma, the kids are more likely to do dumb things that expose themselves to trauma, and the kids are more likely to do impulsive things like try drugs. So it's hard to disentangle what portion of the effects of trauma are direct and which are confounds.
      - girvo 4y ago
        Oh yeah, definitely. It's a complicated mess of variables, that I don't even know how one would begin to tease them apart, but that's also why I firmly come down on the side of "it's both" -- as not all trauma is directly from biological parents, for example.
rayiner 4y ago
Do you really think genetics don't matter? Depending on the study, IQ heritability is between 60-80%.
- imtringued 4y ago
  Okay but that just implies that having a wide distribution of IQ is well adapted to our natural environment.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    In the same sense as humans having a range of strength and speed is well adapted, sure. But athletics also tends to run in families.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      We have relatively strong evidence for a significant degree of genetic determinism in athletic ability (at least for some sports). We do not for intelligence.
- tptacek 4y ago
  This isn't even wrong. Is the number of human toes genetic? How heritable is the number of toes on a human being? Is wearing a dress genetic? How heritable is whether or not you wear a dress?
  - rayiner 4y ago
    I don’t really understand your argument. Wearing dresses isn’t heritable, we know that because most women’s grandmothers wore dresses and most women wear jeans or casual wear. Heritability isn’t proof that a trait is genetic, but it’s strong evidence once you start addressing confounding factors. As I recall, the IQ heritability research was done with twin studies. This is like shocking to me we’re even debating this. I would have assumed it’s conventional wisdom.
    - 4y ago
pram 4y ago
After having kids, my opinion is they come out of the womb with baked-in personalities. Not that we don't change as we age obviously, but it's definitely not a blank slate by a mile.
tfigment 4y ago
I can only speak from personal experience but that is what happened to my family. My brother is a sociopath who caused our family a lifetime of difficulty. The biological mother was drug addict and abusive before adoption and he became an addict. My sister also adopted from different family was less of a problem but also had some issues. My dad was very kind and not abusive and spent way too much trying to help. Who knows maybe it was environment and early abuse or something but nature stacked the deck I think in my family. The other issue with adoption is limited access to family medical history.

by nunb 4y ago

decafninja 4y ago

Curious as to what you mean. I think you're implying that the personality makeup of the adopted child that comes from his/her biological parents is not to be underestimated? Is that really a questionable or controversial topic though? The thought has occurred to me. I would describe both my wife and I as being stable mannered and not prone to rash decisions. Odds are a biological child of ours might resemble that personality. I also acknowledge a child we adopt may have had biological parents with very different personalities than us, and therefore the child may be very different from us in personality. At the same time, I don't believe that just because the child's biological parents might have been wild and crazy, the child is doomed to the same fate even with our care.

JamesBarney 4y ago
> At the same time, I don't believe that just because the child's biological parents might have been wild and crazy, the child is doomed to the same fate even with our care Tell me you haven't read many behavioral genetics papers without telling me you haven't read many behavioral genetics papers :).
d0100 4y ago
Some wild and crazy behavior comes by because of genetic "features" that translate into mental issues But I do believe nurture can help to prevent or exacerbate those issues

random314 4y ago

What was the opinion?

nunb 4y ago
adoptee turned to hard drugs (opiods) in his teens. the opinion was: what do you expect, the father was an addict too. at the time I was shocked as I was so firmly in the nurture camp.
- girvo 4y ago
  Addiction, and specifically OUD is complicated, but there is real evidence that genetics plays a sizeable role in the physiological dependence side of it. However the main risk factor for trying and then abusing opioids, for example, is trauma, typically but not only in childhood. Basically, it’s both nature and nurture, as most things are. Where the percentages lie for both, I don’t think we know yet.
  - nunb 4y ago
    yes, I agree with you. It's just at the time I was unaware that brain chemistry could be genetically dependent; although as you say that's pre-disposition, and the trigger can be trauma, and sometimes knowing you are adopted can be the source of that trauma, thus triggering the behaviour.
  - JamesBarney 4y ago
    Trauma is deeply intertwined with genetics. For instance parents who have genes that increase impulsivity are more likely to e beat their kids exposing them to trauma, the kids are more likely to do dumb things that expose themselves to trauma, and the kids are more likely to do impulsive things like try drugs. So it's hard to disentangle what portion of the effects of trauma are direct and which are confounds.
    - girvo 4y ago
      Oh yeah, definitely. It's a complicated mess of variables, that I don't even know how one would begin to tease them apart, but that's also why I firmly come down on the side of "it's both" -- as not all trauma is directly from biological parents, for example.

rayiner 4y ago

Do you really think genetics don't matter? Depending on the study, IQ heritability is between 60-80%.

imtringued 4y ago
Okay but that just implies that having a wide distribution of IQ is well adapted to our natural environment.
- rayiner 4y ago
  In the same sense as humans having a range of strength and speed is well adapted, sure. But athletics also tends to run in families.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    We have relatively strong evidence for a significant degree of genetic determinism in athletic ability (at least for some sports). We do not for intelligence.
tptacek 4y ago
This isn't even wrong. Is the number of human toes genetic? How heritable is the number of toes on a human being? Is wearing a dress genetic? How heritable is whether or not you wear a dress?
- rayiner 4y ago
  I don’t really understand your argument. Wearing dresses isn’t heritable, we know that because most women’s grandmothers wore dresses and most women wear jeans or casual wear. Heritability isn’t proof that a trait is genetic, but it’s strong evidence once you start addressing confounding factors. As I recall, the IQ heritability research was done with twin studies. This is like shocking to me we’re even debating this. I would have assumed it’s conventional wisdom.
  - 4y ago

pram 4y ago

After having kids, my opinion is they come out of the womb with baked-in personalities. Not that we don't change as we age obviously, but it's definitely not a blank slate by a mile.

tfigment 4y ago

I can only speak from personal experience but that is what happened to my family. My brother is a sociopath who caused our family a lifetime of difficulty. The biological mother was drug addict and abusive before adoption and he became an addict. My sister also adopted from different family was less of a problem but also had some issues. My dad was very kind and not abusive and spent way too much trying to help. Who knows maybe it was environment and early abuse or something but nature stacked the deck I think in my family. The other issue with adoption is limited access to family medical history.