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I always took those posts to be a form of (dark pattern) undisclosed advertisement masquerading as content offered as a perk to YC companies. The last thing th
by UmYeahNo 4y ago
I always took those posts to be a form of (dark pattern) undisclosed advertisement masquerading as content offered as a perk to YC companies. The last thing those advertisers (and YC) want is comments that are similar to what you might read on glassdoor, criticizing the company, management or work culture.
And, it's also possible that they are used as plain-old "brand recognition advertisements", and no one really gets hired. Unless of course Smarking is hiring dozens of "head of engineering" positions (or turnover is that ridiculously high) [0]
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27294446 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27294446
Edited to add: I see it as a dark pattern because it is not explicitly stated as an "Ad" or "Sponsored", and relies on us navigating somewhere else to determine if this is some kind of special post, or for us to have the experience to recognize it as something different than an organic post.
I.E. If today were your first visit to this site, would you recognize them specifically as promoted / sponsored content?
- ALittleLight 4y agoHow is it a dark pattern or undisclosed advertising? I thought it was one of the perks of being a YC company. There is very little advertising on this site, and what is here, e.g. jobs for YC companies, is labeled and on topic.
- batter 4y agoHm... i was leaning as well to dark pattern/ad. Would be interesting to have a poll to understand how many users find this acceptable and click.
- gitgud 4y ago> How is it a dark pattern or undisclosed advertising? Ads here are displayed exactly like a post with extremely subtle differences. Anyone new to the site would think it's a post and click it... To me that's a dark pattern
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- daenz 4y agoIf we're going by formal definitions, here are a few[0]: More broadly, dark patterns supplant "user value...in favor of shareholder value". a user interface that has been carefully crafted to trick users into doing things, such as buying overpriced insurance with their purchase or signing up for recurring bills The hiring posts are deliberately made to look like every other submission, with the exception of not being able to comment on them. So in that way, they're misleading about what they are. They don't really trick users into doing anything, unless you count clicks from users who think they're about to engage with actual community content. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_pattern https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_pattern
- ALittleLight 4y agoThe posts are explicitly differentiated from normal submissions - you can't comment and they usually say something like "X (YC year) is hiring". That's not a dark pattern. I agree that some people may not understand what or why these posts are and not look into it (answers are easily available) - but that doesn't make this a dark pattern. Hackernews has minimal ads, lax account requirements, professional moderation, minimal intrusion from owners - and you are hyperventilating about 1 post in a 100 being a marked ad?
- boredemployee 4y agoreally arbitrary moderation imho
- nopehnnope 4y ago[flagged]
- daenz 4y agoI'm not "hyperventilating", I am attempting to answer your question...no need to be rude. Clearly it's a matter of opinion about where the line of "dark pattern" starts.
- 4y ago
- version_five 4y ago> undisclosed advertisement To be fair, it is disclosed on the FAQ page: Another kind of job ad is reserved for YC-funded startups. These appear on the front page, but are not stories: they have no vote arrows, points, or comments. They begin part-way down and fall steadily. Only one is on the front page at a time. The rest are listed at jobs. I don't know where else they would disclose it, the fact that you can't vote or comment on it clearly shows you it's different. It's way preferable to e.g. astroturfing, and is not a dark pattern a la Amazon tricking you into prime
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago> I don't know where else they would disclose it Inline, I assume; "[Ad] Foo hiring bar"
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- fabianhjr 4y agoIt should be clearly stated as an ad though, google wouldn't get away with not marking the top 2 rows of the result page as advertisement because "they disclosed so on the FAQ"
- phendrenad2 4y agoIANAL, but isn't there a law about online ads similar to what you mention? But then again job postings probably aren't typically considered ads...
- version_five 4y agoNot a lawyer either, but the "ads" (and I think they are ads in the dictionary sense, plus HN refers to them as such in the FAQ) are literally on the website of the company they are advertising for. It's hard to imagine that is not allowed.
- jacquesm 4y ago
- yaseer 4y agoIt's a pattern, but definitely not dark or undisclosed. The system and rationale are explained in the HN FAQ and repeatedly reiterated by the mods. i.e This is one of the things HN gives back to YC, for funding it. Compared to online advertising, jobs posts targeted at a technical audience seems like a reasonable trade.
- paulcole 4y agoWhat do you mean “compared to online advertising”? It is online advertising lmao.
- jjulius 4y ago>It's a pattern, but definitely not dark or undisclosed. Isn't it a dark pattern something that you're not upfront about? Because... >The system and rationale are explained in the HN FAQ and repeatedly reiterated by the mods. ... I have to go to the FAQ (and how do you easily get to the FAQ when you're on https://news.ycombinator.com https://news.ycombinator.com, anyway? it's not exactly easy to find, I had to Google it) to learn about it, or a mod has to show up in a thread like this to mention it. There's nothing at face value when the post is on the front page that alludes to what it is, and I'd hardly say that removing the ability to comment on that post does much to clarify what it is. A pattern can be dark even if unintentionally.
- yaseer 4y agoTo get into pedantic semantics: Yes, I agree it's opaque- perhaps not totally clear on first sight. But a dark pattern has connotations of some intention to deceive, which I don't think is occurring here.
- dang 4y agoThe FAQ is linked at the bottom of every HN page.
- jjulius 4y agoD'oh. Egg, meet face. Thanks dang.
- __s 4y agodang's response on why job ads don't have comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22767319 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22767319
- dang 4y agoThanks, I forgot that and would probably never have found it. There was another variant more recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31602113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31602113. There's also https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20%22job%20ads%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... but most of those comments simply explain why the job ads exist.
- ss108 4y agoSmarking, Skio, a couple other ones.