10 ms·

I knew this was going to be due to the AMD fTPM stuttering. I've had it on my machine since I switched back to AMD in 2019. The BIOS updates haven't helped, and

I knew this was going to be due to the AMD fTPM stuttering. I've had it on my machine since I switched back to AMD in 2019. The BIOS updates haven't helped, and the discrete TPM I tried just made the system unbootable. I'm just used to it now. Honestly, as much as AMD's processors are often great value for money, I have never had a completely stable glitch-free AMD system.

daneel_w 4y ago
So why do you have f/TPM enabled in the first place? There was no Windows 11 back in 2019. Do you have an actual need for it?
- maven29 4y ago
  Full disk encryption as in Bitlocker?
  - daneel_w 4y ago
    Maybe. Only they know. I can't answer your question.
- vel0city 4y ago
  I have the fTPM enabled on a few AMD Ryzen CPU computers I own. I like using Bitlocker even on my personal machines. I've got a lot of personal information on my computers, FDE helps to keep my data safe in case a drive goes missing.
  - daneel_w 4y ago
    Bitlocker/FDE is a valid use case. I personally prefer to protect sensitive information with software-based solutions that are portable between various operating systems.
  - whyoh 4y ago
    BitLocker can be used without TPM, for example with a password or a key file on a USB drive. And those are probably safer options if your whole computer gets stolen.
    - vel0city 4y ago
      The experience of doing it with a password is pretty poor compared to using a TPM. Every time the computer reboots, I need to type in the password. If it is a remote machine, I have to physically be at the station to type in the password. Keeping the key file on a USB drive isn't exactly safe either, as there's a high likelihood that flash drive is probably going to be near my computer when stolen. Also, that flash drive may be active and plugged when the system is running, exposing it to the machine directly. Having that key material easily accessible on a flash drive makes it less protected than using the TPM. Using the TPM gives me a better experience and depending on how things are handled a far more secure way of handling the key. Its way easier to grab the key file off the flash drive than coaxing it out of the TPM without booting the trusted boot process.
    - gambiting 4y ago
      They are only safer if you always unplug the USB drive and take it with you. Which I know I would never do reliably enough to offer protection(and I would probably lose the drive eventually which is then actually a complete loss of data unless you have a backup, but if you have a backup then that's yet another weakness in the system). A built in TPM module might have some unknown fault that hasn't been disclosed yet, but I think that's about 10000x less likely than the chance of me forgetting/losing the USB drive with encryption key.
- cameronh90 4y ago
  I use Bitlocker FDE. And frankly, having to disable this bit of hardware that you paid for because it doesn't work properly is bullshit.
  - daneel_w 4y ago
    AMD's fTPM is a gratis bonus as far as I'm concerned. Bitlocker's disk encryption can be used without TPM. It's less convenient - Windows needs to read the cryptographic key from a USB flash drive at boot - but I'm willing to bet it's much easier to get used to than 3 years of glitching and stuttering.
    - cameronh90 4y ago
      It's not a "gratis bonus" when I specifically buy a device because I require that feature. Besides Windows 11 requiring a TPM, which was known to be on the cards for a while now, storing the key on a USB drive is not functionally the same as the TPM. It means either the key material is stored in plaintext on the USB, which is pointless, or I still need to use a PIN. I need my computer to be able to boot without intervention, so that isn't an option.
      - daneel_w 4y ago
        > It's not a "gratis bonus" when I specifically buy a device because I require that feature. I don't understand, since fTPM specifically isn't a requirement. Any TPM will work. If you had bought Intel you would have paid more for just the CPU alone, regardless of the cost of a discrete TPM. > Besides Windows 11 requiring a TPM, which was known to be on the cards for a while now, storing the key on a USB drive is not functionally the same as the TPM. It means either the key material is stored in plaintext on the USB, which is pointless, or I still need to use a PIN. I need my computer to be able to boot without intervention, so that isn't an option. With f/TPM and no PIN you're storing the keys in plain-text right next to the encrypted content. It's like hanging the keys to your door on the knob. This effectively cancels the point of full-disk encryption for your implied personal use. I cannot believe what I'm reading.
neogodless 4y ago
For what it's worth, I use my desktop for work and gaming. All AMD system for the past 3 years (CPU/GPU). No glitches or stuttering. Windows 10 with fTPM disabled since I have no interest in Windows 11. Been AMD only for CPU in my desktop the past 15 years or so and haven't had these glitch/stutter issues. All of this anecdotal, but I just find it odd you've never had a "stable glitch-free AMD system." But it might vary depending on motherboard, motherboard OEM and motherboard chipset. (Was on Asus X470, now on MSI X570.)
- daneel_w 4y ago
  Installing a TPM module and then failing to get the computer to boot suggests that they don't know how to use the TPM in concert with an operating system. It's possible they don't even know what TPM is for or why they enabled/installed it in the first place.
  - cameronh90 4y ago
    Of course I know how to use a TPM and why one might use it. It's rather unfair of you to assume that I don't because the hardware I bought doesn't function properly. The computer failed to POST after I put in the dTPM, nothing to do with the OS. It's either an issue with the dTPM or the motherboard, but I couldn't figure out what the problem was and didn't want to keep spending money. The motherboard manufacturers provide very little information about how their dTPM interfaces work, and nowadays it can be difficult to find genuine OEM dTPMs due to Win11-related stock shortages.
    - daneel_w 4y ago
      Failure to boot after replacing the TPM is a key management problem on behalf of the user. Not a hardware problem.
- cameronh90 4y ago
  My thinking is that it's not the AMD CPUs that are the problem, but rather the Intel chipsets and chipset drivers generally seem to have fewer issues. It could also be that Microsoft and others do more testing on Intel-based systems. For what it's worth, I also indirectly support quite a lot of corporate systems, and we've had a fair amount of flakiness with AMD Thinkpads. Not every laptop has issues, and not in every situation, but we get issues significantly more often for the AMD machines - this is visible clearly in the stats we keep. Anything involving docks seems to be particularly problematic. It could be that Lenovo are just making terrible devices and I'm unfairly blaming AMD - but the Intel ones are rock solid. Also I've used TPM for years, possibly since Windows 7 I think, in order to get full disk encryption with Bitlocker. More recently I've been playing with remote attestation.
WithinReason 4y ago
Latest motherboard BIOS might fix it: https://www.techpowerup.com/295821/amd-releases-agesa-v2-1-2-0-7-microcode-to-motherboard-vendors-and-oems https://www.techpowerup.com/295821/amd-releases-agesa-v2-1-2... "This particular version of AGESA gains importance to those on Windows 11, as it corrects a performance-stuttering issue caused due to frequent polling of the fTPM by the OS."
- cameronh90 4y ago
  Indeed it's supposed to, but it doesn't fix it for me. Even if it did, it's pretty annoying that this problem has been around for at least 3 years without a fix.
- d2wa 4y ago
  (I’m the author.) That’s the version I’m running.
  - WithinReason 4y ago
    Sorry to hear, I have the same problem and was hoping the update would fix it. Although the latest (beta) update did improve things a lot.
psyc 4y ago
I’ve built several AMD systems over the past 20 years, and until now all the ones with nvidia GPUs were absolutely rock solid wrt hardware. The Radeon builds suffered various mostly minor GPU driver problems. But son of a bitcoin, my current PC has this exact stuttering problem! And all this time I just assumed it was Windows being stupid about normal I/O. But come to think of it, I did recently have a conversation with my even-hardware-geekier brother in which I said something like “How in the hell can Windows have become so sloppy that the mouse cursor can be regularly interrupted during normal use? That should be logically impossible by design.” But now I bet it’s this motherboard thing preempting everything and it all makes sense.
gambiting 4y ago
I've had a 5900X+X570 machine since late 2020, with fTPM enabled, and never noticed any stuttering. It's a completely flawless system, especially compared to the Intel 4790K machine it replaced, which had loads of random issues like these, unexplainable performance dips and crashes which no tweak could ever fix.
- babypuncher 4y ago
  It really seems to vary based on motherboard make and model. My high-end x570 board from ASUS initially exhibited this behavior, but it was rectified rather quickly with a BIOS update. I still ended up putting in a real TPM module for convenience reasons. It's hard to experiment with bios settings when half of them end up wiping the fTPM, necessitating me to punch in my BitLocker key on next boot. Maybe this fiasco combined with Windows 11 will finally push motherboard manufacturers to just build a real TPM into their products rather than relying on these janky fTPM/PTT solutions.
fzfaa 4y ago
>Honestly, as much as AMD's processors are often great value for money, I have never had a completely stable glitch-free AMD system. If they are glitchy how can they be great value? I've had the same experience over the past decades - I will never be buying AMD again.
to11mtm 4y ago
I've had a couple... Two stand out. One was my glorious AXP1800 + Gigabyte GA-7DXR. Ok so it -started- glitching eventually, but that was because capacitor plague and not the AMD-ness. But that was a workhorse machine of mine through most of college. The few crashes that I -did- have, were related to other components like video/audio(1) that were no better in a 'full intel' setup. The other was an unsupported config; Tyan Tiger MPX with Dual 1.0Ghz Morgan Durons, Running Windows 2000. Fun little box. (1) - At the start of the century, one of the best things I did for system reliability was ditch Creative Labs and their drivers for the Glorious Crystal/HTEnvy cards.

daneel_w 4y ago

So why do you have f/TPM enabled in the first place? There was no Windows 11 back in 2019. Do you have an actual need for it?

maven29 4y ago
Full disk encryption as in Bitlocker?
- daneel_w 4y ago
  Maybe. Only they know. I can't answer your question.
vel0city 4y ago
I have the fTPM enabled on a few AMD Ryzen CPU computers I own. I like using Bitlocker even on my personal machines. I've got a lot of personal information on my computers, FDE helps to keep my data safe in case a drive goes missing.
- daneel_w 4y ago
  Bitlocker/FDE is a valid use case. I personally prefer to protect sensitive information with software-based solutions that are portable between various operating systems.
- whyoh 4y ago
  BitLocker can be used without TPM, for example with a password or a key file on a USB drive. And those are probably safer options if your whole computer gets stolen.
  - vel0city 4y ago
    The experience of doing it with a password is pretty poor compared to using a TPM. Every time the computer reboots, I need to type in the password. If it is a remote machine, I have to physically be at the station to type in the password. Keeping the key file on a USB drive isn't exactly safe either, as there's a high likelihood that flash drive is probably going to be near my computer when stolen. Also, that flash drive may be active and plugged when the system is running, exposing it to the machine directly. Having that key material easily accessible on a flash drive makes it less protected than using the TPM. Using the TPM gives me a better experience and depending on how things are handled a far more secure way of handling the key. Its way easier to grab the key file off the flash drive than coaxing it out of the TPM without booting the trusted boot process.
  - gambiting 4y ago
    They are only safer if you always unplug the USB drive and take it with you. Which I know I would never do reliably enough to offer protection(and I would probably lose the drive eventually which is then actually a complete loss of data unless you have a backup, but if you have a backup then that's yet another weakness in the system). A built in TPM module might have some unknown fault that hasn't been disclosed yet, but I think that's about 10000x less likely than the chance of me forgetting/losing the USB drive with encryption key.
cameronh90 4y ago
I use Bitlocker FDE. And frankly, having to disable this bit of hardware that you paid for because it doesn't work properly is bullshit.
- daneel_w 4y ago
  AMD's fTPM is a gratis bonus as far as I'm concerned. Bitlocker's disk encryption can be used without TPM. It's less convenient - Windows needs to read the cryptographic key from a USB flash drive at boot - but I'm willing to bet it's much easier to get used to than 3 years of glitching and stuttering.
  - cameronh90 4y ago
    It's not a "gratis bonus" when I specifically buy a device because I require that feature. Besides Windows 11 requiring a TPM, which was known to be on the cards for a while now, storing the key on a USB drive is not functionally the same as the TPM. It means either the key material is stored in plaintext on the USB, which is pointless, or I still need to use a PIN. I need my computer to be able to boot without intervention, so that isn't an option.
    - daneel_w 4y ago
      > It's not a "gratis bonus" when I specifically buy a device because I require that feature. I don't understand, since fTPM specifically isn't a requirement. Any TPM will work. If you had bought Intel you would have paid more for just the CPU alone, regardless of the cost of a discrete TPM. > Besides Windows 11 requiring a TPM, which was known to be on the cards for a while now, storing the key on a USB drive is not functionally the same as the TPM. It means either the key material is stored in plaintext on the USB, which is pointless, or I still need to use a PIN. I need my computer to be able to boot without intervention, so that isn't an option. With f/TPM and no PIN you're storing the keys in plain-text right next to the encrypted content. It's like hanging the keys to your door on the knob. This effectively cancels the point of full-disk encryption for your implied personal use. I cannot believe what I'm reading.

neogodless 4y ago

For what it's worth, I use my desktop for work and gaming. All AMD system for the past 3 years (CPU/GPU). No glitches or stuttering. Windows 10 with fTPM disabled since I have no interest in Windows 11. Been AMD only for CPU in my desktop the past 15 years or so and haven't had these glitch/stutter issues. All of this anecdotal, but I just find it odd you've never had a "stable glitch-free AMD system." But it might vary depending on motherboard, motherboard OEM and motherboard chipset. (Was on Asus X470, now on MSI X570.)

daneel_w 4y ago
Installing a TPM module and then failing to get the computer to boot suggests that they don't know how to use the TPM in concert with an operating system. It's possible they don't even know what TPM is for or why they enabled/installed it in the first place.
- cameronh90 4y ago
  Of course I know how to use a TPM and why one might use it. It's rather unfair of you to assume that I don't because the hardware I bought doesn't function properly. The computer failed to POST after I put in the dTPM, nothing to do with the OS. It's either an issue with the dTPM or the motherboard, but I couldn't figure out what the problem was and didn't want to keep spending money. The motherboard manufacturers provide very little information about how their dTPM interfaces work, and nowadays it can be difficult to find genuine OEM dTPMs due to Win11-related stock shortages.
  - daneel_w 4y ago
    Failure to boot after replacing the TPM is a key management problem on behalf of the user. Not a hardware problem.
cameronh90 4y ago
My thinking is that it's not the AMD CPUs that are the problem, but rather the Intel chipsets and chipset drivers generally seem to have fewer issues. It could also be that Microsoft and others do more testing on Intel-based systems. For what it's worth, I also indirectly support quite a lot of corporate systems, and we've had a fair amount of flakiness with AMD Thinkpads. Not every laptop has issues, and not in every situation, but we get issues significantly more often for the AMD machines - this is visible clearly in the stats we keep. Anything involving docks seems to be particularly problematic. It could be that Lenovo are just making terrible devices and I'm unfairly blaming AMD - but the Intel ones are rock solid. Also I've used TPM for years, possibly since Windows 7 I think, in order to get full disk encryption with Bitlocker. More recently I've been playing with remote attestation.

WithinReason 4y ago

Latest motherboard BIOS might fix it: https://www.techpowerup.com/295821/amd-releases-agesa-v2-1-2-0-7-microcode-to-motherboard-vendors-and-oems https://www.techpowerup.com/295821/amd-releases-agesa-v2-1-2... "This particular version of AGESA gains importance to those on Windows 11, as it corrects a performance-stuttering issue caused due to frequent polling of the fTPM by the OS."

cameronh90 4y ago
Indeed it's supposed to, but it doesn't fix it for me. Even if it did, it's pretty annoying that this problem has been around for at least 3 years without a fix.
d2wa 4y ago
(I’m the author.) That’s the version I’m running.
- WithinReason 4y ago
  Sorry to hear, I have the same problem and was hoping the update would fix it. Although the latest (beta) update did improve things a lot.

psyc 4y ago

I’ve built several AMD systems over the past 20 years, and until now all the ones with nvidia GPUs were absolutely rock solid wrt hardware. The Radeon builds suffered various mostly minor GPU driver problems. But son of a bitcoin, my current PC has this exact stuttering problem! And all this time I just assumed it was Windows being stupid about normal I/O. But come to think of it, I did recently have a conversation with my even-hardware-geekier brother in which I said something like “How in the hell can Windows have become so sloppy that the mouse cursor can be regularly interrupted during normal use? That should be logically impossible by design.” But now I bet it’s this motherboard thing preempting everything and it all makes sense.

gambiting 4y ago

I've had a 5900X+X570 machine since late 2020, with fTPM enabled, and never noticed any stuttering. It's a completely flawless system, especially compared to the Intel 4790K machine it replaced, which had loads of random issues like these, unexplainable performance dips and crashes which no tweak could ever fix.

babypuncher 4y ago
It really seems to vary based on motherboard make and model. My high-end x570 board from ASUS initially exhibited this behavior, but it was rectified rather quickly with a BIOS update. I still ended up putting in a real TPM module for convenience reasons. It's hard to experiment with bios settings when half of them end up wiping the fTPM, necessitating me to punch in my BitLocker key on next boot. Maybe this fiasco combined with Windows 11 will finally push motherboard manufacturers to just build a real TPM into their products rather than relying on these janky fTPM/PTT solutions.

fzfaa 4y ago

>Honestly, as much as AMD's processors are often great value for money, I have never had a completely stable glitch-free AMD system. If they are glitchy how can they be great value? I've had the same experience over the past decades - I will never be buying AMD again.

to11mtm 4y ago

I've had a couple... Two stand out. One was my glorious AXP1800 + Gigabyte GA-7DXR. Ok so it -started- glitching eventually, but that was because capacitor plague and not the AMD-ness. But that was a workhorse machine of mine through most of college. The few crashes that I -did- have, were related to other components like video/audio(1) that were no better in a 'full intel' setup. The other was an unsupported config; Tyan Tiger MPX with Dual 1.0Ghz Morgan Durons, Running Windows 2000. Fun little box. (1) - At the start of the century, one of the best things I did for system reliability was ditch Creative Labs and their drivers for the Glorious Crystal/HTEnvy cards.