5 ms·

I often discuss on the french subreddit, and it's crazy how hard some people fight back giving up their cars. The recurring excuse is a long commute and bad ava

by jokoon 4y ago

I often discuss on the french subreddit, and it's crazy how hard some people fight back giving up their cars. The recurring excuse is a long commute and bad availability of public transit. Most people don't have a long commute, since public transit covers most french citizens, but weirdly there is a very vocal minority who live in the middle of nowhere. I keep explaining to them that they can keep driving since they're a minority so it's not such a big problem, but that they should also consider moving near train stations. There really is a "car culture" going on, which is very difficult to debate with. Sometimes I suspect if it's just the car lobby paying astroturfers to fight this.

thaumasiotes 4y ago
> I keep explaining to them that they can keep driving since they're a minority so it's not such a big problem, but that they should also consider moving near train stations. We had train stations before we had cars. This tends to suggest that train stations are worse than cars.
- lm28469 4y ago
  Worse in what way? worse for car manufacturers, sure worse for lazy people, sure worse for pollution? worse for cities? Following your train of thought everything new is inherently better in every aspects, which is far from true when you start digging Cars became so widespread that we underestimate the innumerable problems they cause, it's like telling an heroin addict he was happier before he started being an addict...
- kjkjadksj 4y ago
  People didn't use fentanyl, then they did. Does that suggest fentanyl is good?
jnsaff2 4y ago
In my local EV forum there are a lot of people who join just to come and say: EV's are wrong because: "it doesn't stimulate my hearing, just no feeling without the engine growl", "charging something something", "what about road trips", yadayada. I guess people who don't want to change their habits feel threatened somehow? Because deep inside they understand that the change is correct? I don't know, this is all super weird.
- gray_-_wolf 4y ago
  > charging something something But charging is (well, would be, I don't have EV) annoying. I usually fill the gas tank once a month or two and it takes 15 minutes including the trip to gas station. The ~500km distance I get from full tank is enough to cover my car use for a long time. So yeah, having to charge more often, having to find a place to charge at, all of that sounds quite inconvenient and I do not want it. Related question since you seem knowledgeable about EVs: What is "passive drain" on an average EV? Do I still have "full tank" after not touching the car for two or three weeks?
  - gibdu 4y ago
    Not the person you replied to but I also drive an EV since 2021. I have a Tesla Model 3 (LR) and after leaving it for three weeks it only lost around 3% battery. Also, I have a similar distance I drive monthly and I only charge it once.
    - gray_-_wolf 4y ago
      Good to know, thank you.
  - jnsaff2 4y ago
    > well, would be, I don't have EV This I think is the crux here. You don't have experience so you think how it would be different .. and different is .. bad? I have an EV and my experience is: - when I get home and I have a feeling that next drive might be long and need charge, I plug it in. Next day it's charged. - if there is a drive long enough to need charging (for me happens very seldom) I go and get a coffee at a fast charger - petrol car fill up was about 130EUR, the electric to do the same distance between 2 and 40 EUR depending price of electricity and whether I do fast charge.
    - gray_-_wolf 4y ago
      > when I get home and I have a feeling that next drive might be long and need charge, I plug it in Sure, let me hang down the cable with electricity from the 3rd floor window of the apartment building I live in, that will work great. (Can I even charge the car from regular socket? I would hope yes, albeit slowly I assume.) > You don't have experience so you think how it would be different .. and different is .. bad? For me the car is a handy tool, so don't care much about "feel of the motor" or whatever. But the tool should be practical. So in this case, when I compare 5m to fill the tank and pay to 25m (Level 3, here [0]) to charge the EV, the gas variant comes out as superior. And the car itself is cheaper. And has bigger range (well, not that that one matters too much to me. Anything over 400km would be enough for me). So I just don't see why I should prefer EV (disclaimer: I'm not sold on the whole "it's greener" thing, for multitude of reasons). 0: https://mechanicbase.com/electric/how-long-does-it-take-to-fully-charge-a-tesla/ https://mechanicbase.com/electric/how-long-does-it-take-to-f... > petrol car fill up was about 130EUR, the electric to do the same distance between 2 and 40 EUR depending price of electricity and whether I do fast charge. At current gas prices, full tank is ~43 EUR for me (using conversion rate from google). At my income (low by US standard, reasonable by the local ones), that is low enough I mostly don't care about it since it's once every month or two. Out of curiosity, might I ask what car did you drive before? 130 EUR for full tank sounds... like a lot. So I'm wondering if it was due to car being huge or due to gas price.
stinos 4y ago
Sometimes I suspect if it's just the car lobby Well, don't know about the situation in France, but Belgium is likely worse when it comes to this, imo the main reason being the completely insane amount of subsidies for company cars. Also leading to more SUV type of cars (company pays anyway, also for fuel, so why nog get that). There's no way there's no lobbying going on there, Belgium is probably a small goldmine for car manufacturers. Maybe I'm biased, but looking at this from a distance all I can see is state-subsidized traffic jams, pollution and accidents.
davidguetta 4y ago
Im french. Cars are replaceable, and actually a burden, in big cities but its insane to think that people in the smaller cities can switch. My parents love biking but theres no f**ing way they can do their life on the littoral without a car. When all your friends and the closer market is 10/15km away from each other. Also the advice to go live close to a train station is literally nuts. You want everyone in a departement. to live <2km to a train station ? Welcome to hong kong.
- ThePadawan 4y ago
  > You want everyone in a departement. to live <2km to a train station ? Welcome to hong kong. Don't you mean "Welcome to Switzerland"?
  - davidguetta 4y ago
    Idk in france there was more countryside train station before than now so im not sure the trend goes into this direction
speedgoose 4y ago
The vocal minority you talk about represents millions of people. And they cannot really move near train stations, they can be very far away or in much more expensive areas.
- bertil 4y ago
  23% of the French population is more than 6km from a train station [1], which is considered close enough to bike. That's 15.6 million people. Assuming those are families of 2.2 people on average, they would need 7 million cars. That’s 18% of the current 38 million cars in France. We could have five times fewer cars, and half of the country’s carbon footprint if the 31 million car owners who don’t need them gave theirs up. But somehow, the 7 million necessary cars are used as a loincloth to shelter the rest from poisoning everyone else [1] https://www.cairn.info/revue-transports-urbains-2014-3-page-13.htm#pa15 https://www.cairn.info/revue-transports-urbains-2014-3-page-...
  - speedgoose 4y ago
    12km of daily biking is not for every family.
    - bertil 4y ago
      That’s 30 min of light exercise, five times a week — less if you are using electric assist. It’s the minimum requirement to not be considered sedentary, which would triple your health risks. If you think that’s too much and you don’t have a serious physical handicap, you are about likely to have one.
      - speedgoose 4y ago
        I assume you don’t have small kids and you live in a flat sunny part of France with good road infrastructures for biking.
        kuschku 4y ago

by jokoon 4y ago

thaumasiotes 4y ago

> I keep explaining to them that they can keep driving since they're a minority so it's not such a big problem, but that they should also consider moving near train stations. We had train stations before we had cars. This tends to suggest that train stations are worse than cars.

lm28469 4y ago
Worse in what way? worse for car manufacturers, sure worse for lazy people, sure worse for pollution? worse for cities? Following your train of thought everything new is inherently better in every aspects, which is far from true when you start digging Cars became so widespread that we underestimate the innumerable problems they cause, it's like telling an heroin addict he was happier before he started being an addict...
kjkjadksj 4y ago
People didn't use fentanyl, then they did. Does that suggest fentanyl is good?

jnsaff2 4y ago

In my local EV forum there are a lot of people who join just to come and say: EV's are wrong because: "it doesn't stimulate my hearing, just no feeling without the engine growl", "charging something something", "what about road trips", yadayada. I guess people who don't want to change their habits feel threatened somehow? Because deep inside they understand that the change is correct? I don't know, this is all super weird.

gray_-_wolf 4y ago
> charging something something But charging is (well, would be, I don't have EV) annoying. I usually fill the gas tank once a month or two and it takes 15 minutes including the trip to gas station. The ~500km distance I get from full tank is enough to cover my car use for a long time. So yeah, having to charge more often, having to find a place to charge at, all of that sounds quite inconvenient and I do not want it. Related question since you seem knowledgeable about EVs: What is "passive drain" on an average EV? Do I still have "full tank" after not touching the car for two or three weeks?
- gibdu 4y ago
  Not the person you replied to but I also drive an EV since 2021. I have a Tesla Model 3 (LR) and after leaving it for three weeks it only lost around 3% battery. Also, I have a similar distance I drive monthly and I only charge it once.
  - gray_-_wolf 4y ago
    Good to know, thank you.
- jnsaff2 4y ago
  > well, would be, I don't have EV This I think is the crux here. You don't have experience so you think how it would be different .. and different is .. bad? I have an EV and my experience is: - when I get home and I have a feeling that next drive might be long and need charge, I plug it in. Next day it's charged. - if there is a drive long enough to need charging (for me happens very seldom) I go and get a coffee at a fast charger - petrol car fill up was about 130EUR, the electric to do the same distance between 2 and 40 EUR depending price of electricity and whether I do fast charge.
  - gray_-_wolf 4y ago
    > when I get home and I have a feeling that next drive might be long and need charge, I plug it in Sure, let me hang down the cable with electricity from the 3rd floor window of the apartment building I live in, that will work great. (Can I even charge the car from regular socket? I would hope yes, albeit slowly I assume.) > You don't have experience so you think how it would be different .. and different is .. bad? For me the car is a handy tool, so don't care much about "feel of the motor" or whatever. But the tool should be practical. So in this case, when I compare 5m to fill the tank and pay to 25m (Level 3, here [0]) to charge the EV, the gas variant comes out as superior. And the car itself is cheaper. And has bigger range (well, not that that one matters too much to me. Anything over 400km would be enough for me). So I just don't see why I should prefer EV (disclaimer: I'm not sold on the whole "it's greener" thing, for multitude of reasons). 0: https://mechanicbase.com/electric/how-long-does-it-take-to-fully-charge-a-tesla/ https://mechanicbase.com/electric/how-long-does-it-take-to-f... > petrol car fill up was about 130EUR, the electric to do the same distance between 2 and 40 EUR depending price of electricity and whether I do fast charge. At current gas prices, full tank is ~43 EUR for me (using conversion rate from google). At my income (low by US standard, reasonable by the local ones), that is low enough I mostly don't care about it since it's once every month or two. Out of curiosity, might I ask what car did you drive before? 130 EUR for full tank sounds... like a lot. So I'm wondering if it was due to car being huge or due to gas price.

stinos 4y ago

Sometimes I suspect if it's just the car lobby Well, don't know about the situation in France, but Belgium is likely worse when it comes to this, imo the main reason being the completely insane amount of subsidies for company cars. Also leading to more SUV type of cars (company pays anyway, also for fuel, so why nog get that). There's no way there's no lobbying going on there, Belgium is probably a small goldmine for car manufacturers. Maybe I'm biased, but looking at this from a distance all I can see is state-subsidized traffic jams, pollution and accidents.

davidguetta 4y ago

Im french. Cars are replaceable, and actually a burden, in big cities but its insane to think that people in the smaller cities can switch. My parents love biking but theres no f**ing way they can do their life on the littoral without a car. When all your friends and the closer market is 10/15km away from each other. Also the advice to go live close to a train station is literally nuts. You want everyone in a departement. to live <2km to a train station ? Welcome to hong kong.

ThePadawan 4y ago
> You want everyone in a departement. to live <2km to a train station ? Welcome to hong kong. Don't you mean "Welcome to Switzerland"?
- davidguetta 4y ago
  Idk in france there was more countryside train station before than now so im not sure the trend goes into this direction

speedgoose 4y ago

The vocal minority you talk about represents millions of people. And they cannot really move near train stations, they can be very far away or in much more expensive areas.

bertil 4y ago
23% of the French population is more than 6km from a train station [1], which is considered close enough to bike. That's 15.6 million people. Assuming those are families of 2.2 people on average, they would need 7 million cars. That’s 18% of the current 38 million cars in France. We could have five times fewer cars, and half of the country’s carbon footprint if the 31 million car owners who don’t need them gave theirs up. But somehow, the 7 million necessary cars are used as a loincloth to shelter the rest from poisoning everyone else [1] https://www.cairn.info/revue-transports-urbains-2014-3-page-13.htm#pa15 https://www.cairn.info/revue-transports-urbains-2014-3-page-...
- speedgoose 4y ago
  12km of daily biking is not for every family.
  - bertil 4y ago
    That’s 30 min of light exercise, five times a week — less if you are using electric assist. It’s the minimum requirement to not be considered sedentary, which would triple your health risks. If you think that’s too much and you don’t have a serious physical handicap, you are about likely to have one.
    - speedgoose 4y ago
      I assume you don’t have small kids and you live in a flat sunny part of France with good road infrastructures for biking.
      - kuschku 4y ago