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I'm still an outsider (recent immigrant to Canada) but my impression of right vs left politicians here reminds me very much of Dems vs Reps in the US. When the

by raydev 4y ago

I'm still an outsider (recent immigrant to Canada) but my impression of right vs left politicians here reminds me very much of Dems vs Reps in the US. When the right obtains power, they incrementally and consistently put the pieces in place to ensure that the quality of gov-provided services decreases over time. Then when the left obtains power, they simply maintain status quo, never improving or fixing the problems created by the previous administration. And of course, we have issues where practically no one shows up to vote and a widely-disliked premier gets a majority government, a premier who will continue to ensure the gov-funded options get worse.

Scoundreller 4y ago
> When the right obtains power, they incrementally and consistently put the pieces in place to ensure that the quality of gov-provided services decreases over time. My favourite was when one promised 'fiscal restraint' and no deficits, so they sold off a 99y lease on a tolled highway to plug their deficit. They promised prices wouldn't go up more than 30% in 15 years, but they went up 200%. https://www.thespec.com/news/canada/2019/09/03/birth-of-a-fiasco-how-the-ontario-tories-completely-botched-the-sale-of-highway-407.html https://www.thespec.com/news/canada/2019/09/03/birth-of-a-fi... While the public highways are gridlocked, there have been at least 2 aircraft landings on the tolled highway without injury: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/plane-makes-emergency-landing-on-hwy-407-1.927535 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/plane-makes-emergency... https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/plane-highway-407-markham-1.6226951 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/plane-highway-407-mar...
- sidewndr46 4y ago
  While your point about aircraft landings is funny, I'm guessing general aviation in Canada is similar to that of the US. It's not really uncommon for planes to land on highways in the US. Even busy ones. It just isn't very interesting to be honest, so no one makes much point about it. I think the FAA publishes numbers on that sort of thing.
  - cmrdporcupine 4y ago
    You're missing the point. The 40x series highways around Toronto are some of the most gridlocked transportation networks in North America. I believe often ranking worse than LA or Atlanta etc etc. The 401 is pretty much bumper to bumper every single day all day except maybe at like 3am. The 407 toll route the author is describing takes basically the same route as the gridlocked 401. The toll on the highway is insanely high, probably 10 x higher than anything you'll see in the US on any of the EZpass etc type routes. If you were to take it end to end (100ish km or 60 miles, maybe a 45 minute or 1 hour drive tops) you'd probably be paying at least $60 CAD or so. Because it's so high, it's essentially vacant large parts of the day. Yes planes can land on highways and do so all the time. The point is that the only highway they could do that on in the GTA is the 407. Because it's priced so insanely high. And that money is going straight into private sector bank accounts, not into public coffers.
    - sidewndr46 4y ago
      I've been around Toronto and agree: the roads are mostly parking lots. I actually wonder if the low average speed reduces the cost of maintenance since the roadway should be less worn. But aren't tolls meant to be set high enough to discourage their use? Otherwise the average travel time on them would be about the same as the untolled route.
      - cmrdporcupine 4y ago
        The 407 could likely handle 3, 4 times the capacity it holds right now. I don't know what the elasticity situation and supply/demand looks like for that highway. I can guarantee you that the owners do, and they've set it accordingly to accomplish their goals ($$). But not necessarily the goals the benefit the city. For me it's the difference between being able to work at certain employers in the west end of the GTA vs not. The fee, paid daily, would be a big nope to me. And I'm upper middle class.
        sidewndr46 4y ago
        Was the toll road utilized before the government sold it off?
cmrdporcupine 4y ago
I think you're giving a lot more benefit of the doubt to the Liberals (and US Democrats) than you should. You're assuming they have wildly different aims. But I don't think history has borne that out. If you want to know why they're so tepid and inept in their opposition to the right and far right, it's because there's not enough of a substantial difference in fundamental direction and policy. (And liberals are on the whole conceptually unable to mobilize in a populist way because they distrust mass politics.) Yes, on the cultural issues front there's substantial disagreement. Though less so in Canada where there's more of a socially liberal consensus. But on the economic and political side of things, it's not clear to me that there's a strong ideological dividing line here. Both are roughly in favour of the same neo-liberal economics. Private sector == good, low corporate taxes == good. Essentially supply side conformity. But both are responsive to different bases. The Liberals in Canada cannot move against social programs at this time, or cut social spending broadly -- but they absolutely have done so in the past. The Chretien Liberals enacted the most brutal austerity initiative in Canadian history, and in fact one of the most drastic in the entire G7. At this point, the Liberals broadly support a kind of neo-Keynesian aggressive social spending. But I'd argue that this is not based on fundamental principles, but based on their need to acquire votes and to squeeze out the NDP. With inflation and various budget indicators being what they are, I am pretty sure the Liberals are prone to leaning back into an austerity direction ... if the NDP vote were to collapse completely, like it did in 1993 (down to 9 seats its worst performance ever), you can pretty much bet the LPC would be back to massive budget cuts. And I think Singh is taking the NDP in that direction, so. I think you'll have a hard time seeing a strong economic policy differentiation between Harper's Conservatives and Trudeau's Liberals. (Or McGuinty/Wynne and Ford) Both responded with intensive social "stimulus" spending in economic crisis (2008 & 2020 respectively). Both used debt as a tool in a massive way. Neither side showed serious fiscal restraint. Both sides have kept a massively low corporate tax rate (one of the lowest in the western world and drastically lower than the "right wing" USA) Both favoured policies that pumped up the real estate market. Both had aggressive immigration and temporary foreign worker programs. etc etc. ... And both directed their spending at their respective voting bases in a way that verged on corruption (Harper threw money at Alberta in a huge way, Trudeau more in central Canada). The basic fundamental difference between the two at this point boils down to which sector of Canadian capitalism they represent. The Conservatives are 100% aligned on the energy sector and its demands, and the ideological banners erected in its name in Alberta (along with all the climate change pseudo-denial/defeatism that goes with that). The Liberals represent different interests, some regional to QC, some of it sector-based (real estate & manufacturing). None of it altruistic, or principled, and none of it truly pan-Canadian. And so here we are.
Ferrotin 4y ago
In the U.S., it was the left that got rid of the civil service exam. My guess is, rules that make life harder for teachers, such as ongoing education requirements, also tend to come from some wing of the Democratic Party. I am just trying to give some examples and not make some grand claim; I think both sides do a lot to make governance ineffective when they don’t want that kind of governance, or are having a bout of manic stupidity.
dogcomplex 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratchet_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratchet_effect
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Part of people not voting is because they've been trained to believe it doesn't help, by the people who don't have wide democratic support. Like healthcare, democracy is just one more service they can sabotage and then turn round and blame for effect of their own sabotage.

by raydev 4y ago

Scoundreller 4y ago

> When the right obtains power, they incrementally and consistently put the pieces in place to ensure that the quality of gov-provided services decreases over time. My favourite was when one promised 'fiscal restraint' and no deficits, so they sold off a 99y lease on a tolled highway to plug their deficit. They promised prices wouldn't go up more than 30% in 15 years, but they went up 200%. https://www.thespec.com/news/canada/2019/09/03/birth-of-a-fiasco-how-the-ontario-tories-completely-botched-the-sale-of-highway-407.html https://www.thespec.com/news/canada/2019/09/03/birth-of-a-fi... While the public highways are gridlocked, there have been at least 2 aircraft landings on the tolled highway without injury: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/plane-makes-emergency-landing-on-hwy-407-1.927535 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/plane-makes-emergency... https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/plane-highway-407-markham-1.6226951 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/plane-highway-407-mar...

sidewndr46 4y ago
While your point about aircraft landings is funny, I'm guessing general aviation in Canada is similar to that of the US. It's not really uncommon for planes to land on highways in the US. Even busy ones. It just isn't very interesting to be honest, so no one makes much point about it. I think the FAA publishes numbers on that sort of thing.
- cmrdporcupine 4y ago
  You're missing the point. The 40x series highways around Toronto are some of the most gridlocked transportation networks in North America. I believe often ranking worse than LA or Atlanta etc etc. The 401 is pretty much bumper to bumper every single day all day except maybe at like 3am. The 407 toll route the author is describing takes basically the same route as the gridlocked 401. The toll on the highway is insanely high, probably 10 x higher than anything you'll see in the US on any of the EZpass etc type routes. If you were to take it end to end (100ish km or 60 miles, maybe a 45 minute or 1 hour drive tops) you'd probably be paying at least $60 CAD or so. Because it's so high, it's essentially vacant large parts of the day. Yes planes can land on highways and do so all the time. The point is that the only highway they could do that on in the GTA is the 407. Because it's priced so insanely high. And that money is going straight into private sector bank accounts, not into public coffers.
  - sidewndr46 4y ago
    I've been around Toronto and agree: the roads are mostly parking lots. I actually wonder if the low average speed reduces the cost of maintenance since the roadway should be less worn. But aren't tolls meant to be set high enough to discourage their use? Otherwise the average travel time on them would be about the same as the untolled route.
    - cmrdporcupine 4y ago
      The 407 could likely handle 3, 4 times the capacity it holds right now. I don't know what the elasticity situation and supply/demand looks like for that highway. I can guarantee you that the owners do, and they've set it accordingly to accomplish their goals ($$). But not necessarily the goals the benefit the city. For me it's the difference between being able to work at certain employers in the west end of the GTA vs not. The fee, paid daily, would be a big nope to me. And I'm upper middle class.
      - sidewndr46 4y ago
        Was the toll road utilized before the government sold it off?

cmrdporcupine 4y ago

I think you're giving a lot more benefit of the doubt to the Liberals (and US Democrats) than you should. You're assuming they have wildly different aims. But I don't think history has borne that out. If you want to know why they're so tepid and inept in their opposition to the right and far right, it's because there's not enough of a substantial difference in fundamental direction and policy. (And liberals are on the whole conceptually unable to mobilize in a populist way because they distrust mass politics.) Yes, on the cultural issues front there's substantial disagreement. Though less so in Canada where there's more of a socially liberal consensus. But on the economic and political side of things, it's not clear to me that there's a strong ideological dividing line here. Both are roughly in favour of the same neo-liberal economics. Private sector == good, low corporate taxes == good. Essentially supply side conformity. But both are responsive to different bases. The Liberals in Canada cannot move against social programs at this time, or cut social spending broadly -- but they absolutely have done so in the past. The Chretien Liberals enacted the most brutal austerity initiative in Canadian history, and in fact one of the most drastic in the entire G7. At this point, the Liberals broadly support a kind of neo-Keynesian aggressive social spending. But I'd argue that this is not based on fundamental principles, but based on their need to acquire votes and to squeeze out the NDP. With inflation and various budget indicators being what they are, I am pretty sure the Liberals are prone to leaning back into an austerity direction ... if the NDP vote were to collapse completely, like it did in 1993 (down to 9 seats its worst performance ever), you can pretty much bet the LPC would be back to massive budget cuts. And I think Singh is taking the NDP in that direction, so. I think you'll have a hard time seeing a strong economic policy differentiation between Harper's Conservatives and Trudeau's Liberals. (Or McGuinty/Wynne and Ford) Both responded with intensive social "stimulus" spending in economic crisis (2008 & 2020 respectively). Both used debt as a tool in a massive way. Neither side showed serious fiscal restraint. Both sides have kept a massively low corporate tax rate (one of the lowest in the western world and drastically lower than the "right wing" USA) Both favoured policies that pumped up the real estate market. Both had aggressive immigration and temporary foreign worker programs. etc etc. ... And both directed their spending at their respective voting bases in a way that verged on corruption (Harper threw money at Alberta in a huge way, Trudeau more in central Canada). The basic fundamental difference between the two at this point boils down to which sector of Canadian capitalism they represent. The Conservatives are 100% aligned on the energy sector and its demands, and the ideological banners erected in its name in Alberta (along with all the climate change pseudo-denial/defeatism that goes with that). The Liberals represent different interests, some regional to QC, some of it sector-based (real estate & manufacturing). None of it altruistic, or principled, and none of it truly pan-Canadian. And so here we are.

Ferrotin 4y ago

In the U.S., it was the left that got rid of the civil service exam. My guess is, rules that make life harder for teachers, such as ongoing education requirements, also tend to come from some wing of the Democratic Party. I am just trying to give some examples and not make some grand claim; I think both sides do a lot to make governance ineffective when they don’t want that kind of governance, or are having a bout of manic stupidity.

dogcomplex 4y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratchet_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratchet_effect

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

Part of people not voting is because they've been trained to believe it doesn't help, by the people who don't have wide democratic support. Like healthcare, democracy is just one more service they can sabotage and then turn round and blame for effect of their own sabotage.