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That’s probably true but it cuts both ways too. I don’t know if the lack of copy left license is the problem as much as the momentum. The various Unix and BSD

That’s probably true but it cuts both ways too. I don’t know if the lack of copy left license is the problem as much as the momentum. The various Unix and BSD wars (that were predicated on a much different licensing challenge) and splintering of the communities has meant there was never a big way for developer or even manufacturer interest to really focus. OpenBSD has a very different philosophy related to drivers than FreeBSD and for very understandable reasons, most of the BSDs don’t want to use or touch GPL code. The copyleft nature of the GPL definitely helped Linux, but I don’t think it’s the only reason Linux was successful. But Linux got its shit together first and was able to benefit from that. Apple and to a lesser-extent, Solaris, show that you can still have broader hardware support and drivers without a copyleft license. I do think that if companies could easily port their Linux drivers, you’d see that happen. That’s absolutely a consequence of the license choice (and it’s a consequence from either license decision). But if there is a market for the BSDs in a particular area, I do think you see companies making drivers. The reality is, the market for people running FreeBSD on laptops is pretty small and probably not worth it for a lot of WiFi chipset makers. But if you had a specific industry where FreeBSD was widely deployed, I do think you’d have broader hardware support for things important to that industry, if nothing else.

dark-star 4y ago
From what I heard, at least some companies that use FreeBSD in their products do give back and upstream at least bits of their code (like Sony, NetApp, ...). Probably mostly improvements to existing kernel subsystems, maybe not drivers, if the hardware isn't freely available... but they still participate in development. At the end of the day, it is in their interest as it lessens the maintenance burden of forward-porting everything to every new kernel version.
- filmgirlcw 4y ago
  Correct! And that’s sort of my point. But I don’t think a lot of those companies care about wifi drivers working on laptops, as an example. It is absolutely in their interest to help. But if people expect companies to just write a driver for X operating system, that’s not realistic. And if you could just port the Linux drivers, sure, that would be easier, but it wouldn’t change the fact that device makers still have the be able to prioritize where to put their resources. And laptop FreeBSD users is probably really low on most lists.
- nortonham 4y ago
  netflix definitely gives back to the freebsd project. They run their appliance that delivers netflix content on FreeBSD-current, the development branch
behnamoh 4y ago
> But Linux got its shit together first and was able to benefit from that. Linux is not a company or person. It's the people behind Linux who got it together, but sadly BSD folks have left behind. > Apple and to a lesser-extent, Solaris, show that you can still have broader hardware support and drivers without a copyleft license. You're comparing Apple (a company, and a FAANG of them no less) with community-driven projects. Apples and oranges, almost literally.
0x457 4y ago
Well, it's not that simple. FreeBSD has some contribution from businesses like Netflix and Nginx and those are very welcome, but they have nothing to do with desktop usage. Those have deadlines and budgets, features get implemented and tested. That's why FreeBSD has superb network stack, good NUMA support, files from disk to nic go brrr. That's why the move to OpenZFS was so fast. Then, they're contributions without company backing it. This is where desktop feature live. That's why FreeBSD's Wi-Fi stack is stuck on 802.11g - no company depends on this. GPU drivers stuck at Linux 5.4 level - no company cares about it[1]. Those get discussed to death - there is no deadline, no money. Note, that solution to graphics card driver is to use Linux's drivers, so they don't shy about GPL. However, FreeBSD folks LOVE to bikeshed and polish things. This is why PR to port linux 5.11 drm was open when 5.11 was already EoL for an entire year. Instead of "just" porting 5.11, they decided to refactor how things are done. There are like 3 people working on that PR. It still not merged and not even in review yet. [1]: Bless Nvidia for having FreeBSD driver available. Would be nice to have CUDA too...
- Melatonic 4y ago
  Seriously - more than anything I feel like FreeBSD is a server OS first and foremost. Or more realistically something with lower flexibility that makes it ideal for more niche use cases as a pseudo "lower level" OS. The way I see it the two things you want MOST reliable are storages and network - and all the other features of most operating systems are just unnecessary fluff for those. What I would like to see however is maybe some specific wifi chip or USB/thunderbolt Ethernet adapter that is certified to work well with FreeBSD - for testing purposes and as a mobile network tool it would be useful to have a laptop running FreeBSD in a VM that could communicate over that dedicated piece of hardware. This would make it super convenient to test a bunch of physical hardware or do all kinds of other infrastructure work while remote.
  - Keyframe 4y ago
    Well PlayStation 4 and 5 are on FreeBSD. Modified of course.
    - 4y ago
stainforth 4y ago
This is a question of pure ignorance at this layer, but is or why isn't there a standard for drivers that can follow a similar way of building an interface? Or maybe its not even possible due to entirely different purposes of the device.

dark-star 4y ago

From what I heard, at least some companies that use FreeBSD in their products do give back and upstream at least bits of their code (like Sony, NetApp, ...). Probably mostly improvements to existing kernel subsystems, maybe not drivers, if the hardware isn't freely available... but they still participate in development. At the end of the day, it is in their interest as it lessens the maintenance burden of forward-porting everything to every new kernel version.

filmgirlcw 4y ago
Correct! And that’s sort of my point. But I don’t think a lot of those companies care about wifi drivers working on laptops, as an example. It is absolutely in their interest to help. But if people expect companies to just write a driver for X operating system, that’s not realistic. And if you could just port the Linux drivers, sure, that would be easier, but it wouldn’t change the fact that device makers still have the be able to prioritize where to put their resources. And laptop FreeBSD users is probably really low on most lists.
nortonham 4y ago
netflix definitely gives back to the freebsd project. They run their appliance that delivers netflix content on FreeBSD-current, the development branch

behnamoh 4y ago

> But Linux got its shit together first and was able to benefit from that. Linux is not a company or person. It's the people behind Linux who got it together, but sadly BSD folks have left behind. > Apple and to a lesser-extent, Solaris, show that you can still have broader hardware support and drivers without a copyleft license. You're comparing Apple (a company, and a FAANG of them no less) with community-driven projects. Apples and oranges, almost literally.

0x457 4y ago

Well, it's not that simple. FreeBSD has some contribution from businesses like Netflix and Nginx and those are very welcome, but they have nothing to do with desktop usage. Those have deadlines and budgets, features get implemented and tested. That's why FreeBSD has superb network stack, good NUMA support, files from disk to nic go brrr. That's why the move to OpenZFS was so fast. Then, they're contributions without company backing it. This is where desktop feature live. That's why FreeBSD's Wi-Fi stack is stuck on 802.11g - no company depends on this. GPU drivers stuck at Linux 5.4 level - no company cares about it[1]. Those get discussed to death - there is no deadline, no money. Note, that solution to graphics card driver is to use Linux's drivers, so they don't shy about GPL. However, FreeBSD folks LOVE to bikeshed and polish things. This is why PR to port linux 5.11 drm was open when 5.11 was already EoL for an entire year. Instead of "just" porting 5.11, they decided to refactor how things are done. There are like 3 people working on that PR. It still not merged and not even in review yet. [1]: Bless Nvidia for having FreeBSD driver available. Would be nice to have CUDA too...

Melatonic 4y ago
Seriously - more than anything I feel like FreeBSD is a server OS first and foremost. Or more realistically something with lower flexibility that makes it ideal for more niche use cases as a pseudo "lower level" OS. The way I see it the two things you want MOST reliable are storages and network - and all the other features of most operating systems are just unnecessary fluff for those. What I would like to see however is maybe some specific wifi chip or USB/thunderbolt Ethernet adapter that is certified to work well with FreeBSD - for testing purposes and as a mobile network tool it would be useful to have a laptop running FreeBSD in a VM that could communicate over that dedicated piece of hardware. This would make it super convenient to test a bunch of physical hardware or do all kinds of other infrastructure work while remote.
- Keyframe 4y ago
  Well PlayStation 4 and 5 are on FreeBSD. Modified of course.
  - 4y ago

stainforth 4y ago

This is a question of pure ignorance at this layer, but is or why isn't there a standard for drivers that can follow a similar way of building an interface? Or maybe its not even possible due to entirely different purposes of the device.