6 ms·

I think when discussing this, it should be recognised that there is ample evidence that Russia has worked last several years to undermine the stability of weste

I think when discussing this, it should be recognised that there is ample evidence that Russia has worked last several years to undermine the stability of western democracies. Brexit vote and resulting chaos being one glaring result. I am suggesting that we are just starting to understand the magnitude in which Russia has been able to cause havoc in the west by taking advantage of our freedoms. Link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_Brexit_referendum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_...

pphysch 4y ago
Despite a 24/7 media campaign to suggest otherwise, there is no proof that Russia actually did this. The first line of your link agrees. I think the relentless scapegoating by Western elite of Russia/China/Iran/COVID/$CURRENT_BOGEYMAN/etc. is the real problem. They are avoiding responsibility for a collapsing system, which is only going to allow that collapse to continue.
- api 4y ago
  Both things can be true to varying degrees. Russian propaganda exists but it wouldn't be nearly as effective if it weren't for our elite fumbling so badly.
  - pphysch 4y ago
    Yes, every important organization (nation, religion, corporation) does PR. Its normal and healthy to have some public image management when competitors may try to destroy your image for their own gain. This is a far cry from having a coordinated disinformation campaign to cause political instability in a foreign country. The evidence of Russia doing this to any effect with Trump or Brexit is extremely scant and circumstantial. Such a campaign would be massive, well beyond the capacity of a hidden conspiracy. It would involve entire media companies and NGOs. There would be far more smoking-gun evidence than the current standard of "guilt by association with someone who spent some time in Russia".
    - willyt 4y ago
      Wasn't one of the main leave campaign organisations (Leave.EU?) funded by Aaron Banks who recently lost a libel action against a newspaper that accused him of receiving funds to pay for this from the KGB? EDIT: found a source https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61782578 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61782578
      - pphysch 4y ago
        This is exactly the poor standard of tangential & circumstantial evidence I'm talking about. Read the decision carefully.
        willyt 4y ago
        I expect it would be quite hard to prove beyond reasonable doubt without the security services getting involved in giving evidence but the fact that he lost means that on the balance of probabilities the story is true. Maybe Cadwallr should have burgled his house to find the suitcases full of roubles!
- brnt 4y ago
  There is tons of evidence? Some European right wing parties even freely admit to receiving Kremlin money. It's not seen by anyone I know as scapegoat either; they're fanning existing flames. No more, no less.
airza 4y ago
I think if your country's politics can be this badly steamrolled by a kleptocracy with the GDP of Italy then maybe, just maybe, you live in a failed state.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  This is victim blaming. Destruction is asymmetrical compared to creation. It takes one idiot with a match and 30 seconds to burn your house down. Doesn't mean your house wasn't properly constructed.
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    Victim blaming is akin to taking responsibility in very many domains. This is becoming a bit of a cognitive fallacy, in my opinion.
Lendal 4y ago
I don't think "freedom" is to blame. Freedom in varying degrees has been around for a long time, and attempts to exploit it failed to produce results for the enemies of freedom. They have however recently identified a weakness, (not freedom) and have exploited it to devastating effect. If we continue to fail to identify and make repairs to that weakness, well then that's on us and we deserve what we get.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Freedom isn't to blame directly, but freedom can be abused and without defense mechanisms it will be abused.
banannaise 4y ago
I'm not sure how accurately you can call it "interference" when major political players within the affected nations are actively courting it as a way to achieve their aims while maintaining plausible deniability and a consistent funding source.
throwaway_4ever 4y ago
Look no further than Putin’s spokesman, Dmitri Peskov’s daughter, Elizaveta, being an assistant to far-right Aymeric Chauprade, a French Member of the European Parliament. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aymeric_Chauprade https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aymeric_Chauprade
tuatoru 4y ago
What are you claiming? That Rupert Murdoch and his children are Russian sleeper agents?
- euroderf 4y ago
  If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck...

pphysch 4y ago

Despite a 24/7 media campaign to suggest otherwise, there is no proof that Russia actually did this. The first line of your link agrees. I think the relentless scapegoating by Western elite of Russia/China/Iran/COVID/$CURRENT_BOGEYMAN/etc. is the real problem. They are avoiding responsibility for a collapsing system, which is only going to allow that collapse to continue.

api 4y ago
Both things can be true to varying degrees. Russian propaganda exists but it wouldn't be nearly as effective if it weren't for our elite fumbling so badly.
- pphysch 4y ago
  Yes, every important organization (nation, religion, corporation) does PR. Its normal and healthy to have some public image management when competitors may try to destroy your image for their own gain. This is a far cry from having a coordinated disinformation campaign to cause political instability in a foreign country. The evidence of Russia doing this to any effect with Trump or Brexit is extremely scant and circumstantial. Such a campaign would be massive, well beyond the capacity of a hidden conspiracy. It would involve entire media companies and NGOs. There would be far more smoking-gun evidence than the current standard of "guilt by association with someone who spent some time in Russia".
  - willyt 4y ago
    Wasn't one of the main leave campaign organisations (Leave.EU?) funded by Aaron Banks who recently lost a libel action against a newspaper that accused him of receiving funds to pay for this from the KGB? EDIT: found a source https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61782578 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61782578
    - pphysch 4y ago
      This is exactly the poor standard of tangential & circumstantial evidence I'm talking about. Read the decision carefully.
      - willyt 4y ago
        I expect it would be quite hard to prove beyond reasonable doubt without the security services getting involved in giving evidence but the fact that he lost means that on the balance of probabilities the story is true. Maybe Cadwallr should have burgled his house to find the suitcases full of roubles!
brnt 4y ago
There is tons of evidence? Some European right wing parties even freely admit to receiving Kremlin money. It's not seen by anyone I know as scapegoat either; they're fanning existing flames. No more, no less.

airza 4y ago

I think if your country's politics can be this badly steamrolled by a kleptocracy with the GDP of Italy then maybe, just maybe, you live in a failed state.

jacquesm 4y ago
This is victim blaming. Destruction is asymmetrical compared to creation. It takes one idiot with a match and 30 seconds to burn your house down. Doesn't mean your house wasn't properly constructed.
- DiggyJohnson 4y ago
  Victim blaming is akin to taking responsibility in very many domains. This is becoming a bit of a cognitive fallacy, in my opinion.

Lendal 4y ago

I don't think "freedom" is to blame. Freedom in varying degrees has been around for a long time, and attempts to exploit it failed to produce results for the enemies of freedom. They have however recently identified a weakness, (not freedom) and have exploited it to devastating effect. If we continue to fail to identify and make repairs to that weakness, well then that's on us and we deserve what we get.

jacquesm 4y ago
Freedom isn't to blame directly, but freedom can be abused and without defense mechanisms it will be abused.

banannaise 4y ago

I'm not sure how accurately you can call it "interference" when major political players within the affected nations are actively courting it as a way to achieve their aims while maintaining plausible deniability and a consistent funding source.

throwaway_4ever 4y ago

Look no further than Putin’s spokesman, Dmitri Peskov’s daughter, Elizaveta, being an assistant to far-right Aymeric Chauprade, a French Member of the European Parliament. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aymeric_Chauprade https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aymeric_Chauprade

tuatoru 4y ago

What are you claiming? That Rupert Murdoch and his children are Russian sleeper agents?

euroderf 4y ago
If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck...