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I never really understood why people say productivity and socializing is difficult remote. It's difficult because people aren't putting thought into it. At my l

I never really understood why people say productivity and socializing is difficult remote. It's difficult because people aren't putting thought into it. At my last big-co job the leadership just kept waiting for 'covid to be over' and not improving our remote work culture. Hybrid models will always struggle and 1/3/1 is going to be probably the best you can do. My company is fully remote, we embraced the GitLab model and are EXTREMELY collaborative. Every meeting has a note taker, we use Figma and Figjam for white boarding with incredible efficacy. We essentially have near the same level of documentation as a major enterprise with only 30 staff. Socializing is encouraged via huddles in Slack and I can communicate with anyone in the company if I need to. Collaboration and new ideas disseminate differently online, but as a leader I have made it a goal to make sure we are not putting barriers up online, and actively encourage 'water cooler' talk. Meanwhile we have had no problem sourcing candidates since we can pull from anywhere in the world, we have some incredible people all over the world that we would not have gotten otherwise.

ImprobableTruth 4y ago
>Hybrid models will always struggle and 1/3/1 What does 1/3/1 refer to?
- bearjaws 4y ago
  Monday work from home. Tue-Thur work in office. Friday work from home.
  - sdenton4 4y ago
    Or, perhaps, the reverse...
dgs_sgd 4y ago
How do you replicate water cooler talk in a fully remote environment? Do people do work while tuned in to a meeting where anyone can drop in and talk to them?
- whateveracct 4y ago
  Lots of public slack channels works pretty well in my experience. People end up talking about a lot in plain view and people hop in etc
  - slothtrop 4y ago
    This feels about as intimate and satisfying as talking with randoms on discord. Or posting on HN.
    - distrill 4y ago
      in a huge company sure but in smaller startups it's fine, it's nice even. i've been at companies with 10 people and 10s of thousands and in between and obviously this stops holding true at a fairly small number of employees. but there are plenty of companies of the size that this works for fine.
    - whateveracct 4y ago
      It's not like it's random people every time though. There tend to be regulars in certain discussions and interest groups. Just like forums and chat rooms (on which I've definitely made connections with "randoms" due to discussing shared interests online and having a persistent identity there.
- macintux 4y ago
  When I started working for Basho, which was fully remote, many of the engineers were logged to a Mumble channel for chatting, while simultaneously on Slack. I couldn't handle that level of distraction, but some of them clearly enjoyed it.
- KerrAvon 4y ago
  If I want to talk about what happened on Johnny Carson last night I get in my DeLorean and rev it up to 88 mph. WTF have we become.
  - 4y ago
rngname22 4y ago
Have you considered that those of your view and those espousing that remote is more difficult might have different personalities, levels of need of social interaction, or lifestyles? Have you considered that your company is self-selecting for those who flourish in remote, but that those whose personalities differ are self-selecting for working in an office environment? It's OK for there to not be a one size fits all solution.
- andrewingram 4y ago
  Right. During my somewhat passive job search, I've only been considering companies that have an office local to me (i.e. Central London). I've been working remotely since the start of the pandemic, and I simply don't like it. Sure, I don't miss having to commute or offices with bad noise pollution controls, but I miss everything else. Most of all, I miss being in town at the end of the day and being able to pop to the pub with colleagues if one of us needs to vent, or go to a salsa party nearby. I basically don't go out anymore; yes, this is a me thing, but it's also always been a me thing. I've always found it easier to have a social life on weeknights rather than weekends because I struggle to overcome the inertia of being at home. This preference means some very exciting companies are effectively off-limits to me, and that's hugely frustrating; but I also know what I need.
  - SQueeeeeL 4y ago
    > yes, this is a me thing, but it's also always been a me thing I feel like picking jobs off of a desire to live a social life and feel like part of a community is extremely normal and valid. Remote work is essentially accepting that the primary way you'll engage with your colleagues and labor is through a screen, and that is an uncomfortable feeling (to some people at least)
    - tjr225 4y ago
      There will be a reckoning when we collectively realize that putting more and more, and eventually all, of our lives on the internet is not good for us.
SkyPuncher 4y ago
On my team, we've had to be intentional about creating time specifically for social events (fully optional). It can be challenging since it doesn't feel "productive" and it takes a long time to see the benefits.
insane_dreamer 4y ago
I sort of agree. We (small startup) went fully remote with COVID and remain so. Work communication is fine, but socializing doesn't happen the way it did at the office. It works okay because most of us had already been working together at the office, but it's harder for new hires, and especially for young junior-level engineers without much experience (i.e., fresh out of college). Hasn't worked well for interns either. But for older, experienced, workers who are able to communicate effectively online and would much rather not be bothered to go into an office, it works well. We haven't tried hybrid but I don't really see the benefits of it. One big advantage of remote is being able to hire people in other locations. The only way I could see hybrid being useful would be to provide a work space for people who want to work away from home (i.e., for variety or because their house isn't conducive to it), and let those who prefer to work from home (i.e., parents with young kids who need a more flex schedule) do so without set office day requirements (or very few).
- mingusrude 4y ago
  In the book "A year without pants" by Scott Berkun where he spends a year with Wordpress and their then somewhat unique remote model, he emphasizes that it's still important for many to meet, it's just not necessary every day. I've worked remotely for almost 20 years and I believe quite strongly that remote companies often underestimate the importance of actually meeting occasionally, maybe every 3-6 months. Maybe importance is too strong, maybe it's just fun to meet up every now and then and share some adventures.
lm28469 4y ago
> Meanwhile we have had no problem sourcing candidates since we can pull from anywhere in the world, we have some incredible people all over the world that we would not have gotten otherwise. How do you handle taxes ? For example in Europe a German company can't hire a French dev if the german company doesn't have a legal entity in France, it quickly gets out of control both in term of paperwork and cost. The dev can't be a freelancer because a freelancer with a full time, fixed hours, single customer is illegal in many places Also let's say you have an American company with 200 german employees but no office on german soil, does that mean they don't pay any local tax because technically they don't operate their business in the country ? I feel like a lot of loopholes which were seldom used will promptly be closed once they become widely used
- bearjaws 4y ago
  We use a service called Deel, but we are US entity and that helps in many cases. Essentially they have companies in most countries and you pay them (deel) directly and then they payout to your staff. This also simplifies benefits for healthcare, taxes, retirement. If you find it helpful, heres my referral code https://deel.com/referrals/Michael-n53jPEZJ https://deel.com/referrals/Michael-n53jPEZJ
  - andrewingram 4y ago
    How are preferential equity schemes handled? i.e in the UK, best case tax rate on equity is 10%. But if you're not on government-approved scheme, you'll get taxed at around 55% in the event of a meaningful exit. When I've raised this previously, the point has been dismissed as "45% of lots is still lots", but if you're doing an expected returns calculation and considering other jobs (like a large well-paying org with RSUs) it becomes quite meaningful.
  - lm28469 4y ago
    What happens when an employee is fired or quits ? Does he qualifies for unemployment benefits ? And who pays for it ?
    - 4y ago
pc86 4y ago
Are you hiring? :)
- icy 4y ago
  I too would like to know.
icedchai 4y ago
Communications and collaboration is very important. However, "socializing" through Slack is simply just not the same as going out to lunch with a coworker, for example. Permanent remote work has a very detached feel to it, at least for me.
- danwee 4y ago
  I don't get this. If you have a coworker that enjoy having lunch with you... what's stopping you both doing so? I mean, even if you both work from home, you could still schedule a lunch together in the city, right? If you both live in different cities, well, I guess before COVID you weren't having lunch together that frequently. 100% remote doesn't dictate how (or with who) you eat lunch.
  - slothtrop 4y ago
    Even if you lived in the same city, you'd have to waste time commuting from respective neighborhoods to some halfway point, which could easily be 30 min off your lunch hour.
  - icedchai 4y ago
    Well, physical distance might be a factor: they're 500 miles away. Previous company, everyone I worked with was 1000+ miles.
  - kwanbix 4y ago
    Nothing stops you. But being together "forces" you to socialize. When I turn off the camera, you are gone.
  - devmunchies 4y ago
    Just based on basic behavioral science and statistics, every desired action from pt A to pt B (e.g. visit website -> buy a product) is a collection of smaller actions that comprise a funnel. For example, in the funnel of a customer visiting amazon to finally buying a product, amazon loses millions of dollars when initial page load times are 300ms slower within that funnel. Any added friction between stages in a funnel will reduce the result at the end of the funnel. You add scheduling complexity, physical driving, distributed workforces, etc, and the number of shared lunches are going to drop super fast. Hell, you put 2 onsite employees in 2 different buildings on campus and their chance at a lunch together will drop. If you or your company cares about in-person collaboration or socializing, you had better foster that behavior and not count on raw willpower to break out of the mold.
icare_1er 4y ago
Have you made good friends amongst your colleagues in your remote company, during the remote-work era ? All the trustworthy people i know from work were people i socialized with in person, at the office, around coffe-breaks, post-work drinks, etc. I don't see something similar happening over Zoom meetings and my guess is that 95% of people are like me in that regards. Now, this may not be a big deal over the short-term but I believe that an actual company culture need actual tangible human bonds over the long-term.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  That may be bad for the company, but I don't see it as being bad for the worker. Less work friends, but less loyalty so it's easier to pack and move on when it's time.
- eropple 4y ago
  > Have you made good friends amongst your colleagues in your remote company, during the remote-work era ? Not the OP, but I certainly have. It takes some effort, but it's not particularly difficult if you know and understand how to communicate effectively over a remote medium. It requires an understanding of how communications attenuate over a screen--you need to project!, in-person-normal levels of reservation tends to seem unfriendly. It requires not just strong writing and reading comprehension skills, but reflexively strong capabilities in both of those areas; it needs to be inherent enough that you aren't "turning it on", you're just doing it. And I'm sure some people can't do that. But I've been making friends on the Internet, as well as in person, for about thirty years now, and I've now started two separate jobs since March 2020 and I've met people I'd consider good friends at both of them.
  - rowanajmarshall 4y ago
    > It takes some effort, but it's not particularly difficult if you know and understand how to communicate effectively over a remote medium So I've got zero doubt you _can_ do that, I did over lockdown. But if we make socialising systemically harder across the board, we're basically setting ourselves up to be a lonelier, more isolated society.
mbesto 4y ago
> Hybrid models will always struggle and 1/3/1 is going to be probably the best you can do. I think you should elaborate on why the hybrid model is a struggle, I personally don't see it as one.
- danwee 4y ago
  For me at least, hybrid (some days remote, some days at the office) makes impossible to live in Antwerp and to work for a company based in Amsterdam. Commute is, at best, 2h one way. Same about working for any other Dutch company that is not based on Antwerp. So, basically hybrid means "back to pre-COVID times" when it comes to the pool of companies I can apply to.
- bart_spoon 4y ago
  Its the worst of both worlds. The benefit of remote work is that it gives employees the flexibility to live where they want, and eliminates daily miseries like a commute, both of which the pandemic have proven to be massive priorities for employees. It opens up potential hires to anywhere in the country (or even world). It also allows you to focus on investing in software and practices aimed at maximizing remote effectiveness. You also can potentially greatly downsize or even eliminate a physical office. In office work benefits are often said to include the socialization, and in particular "water-cooler talk" that is supposedly better for collaboration. When everyone is going to the office, the company can also invest into more extensive facitilites, including amenities that make being at the office more pleasant (a gym, catering, etc). With hybrid, you are simultaneously eliminating the ability for employees to live somewhere where they don't need to commute to the office regularly. You also make it so that investing in remote-friendly tools, and office amenities, are both required and less beneficial than if you just picked one. And if "water-cooler talk" and in person collaboration really is that much more effective, then you are still reducing the capacity for that happening by 40+% or more by letting employees work from home 2 or more days a week. I personally vastly prefer 100% remote, but I don't really see the point of hybrid if the company is going to insist on people coming back to the office. And in my case, it would literally be impossible since I (and many others who have been hired since the pandemic started) are hundreds of miles away from the office.
cube2222 4y ago
I agree. I think the problem is companies that try to do a hybrid model, and end up using tools and workflows optimized for on-site work, which makes the remote experience very subpar and clunky. In a remote-first company, everything (tools, workflows, etc.) will be organized around that remoteness, which yields much better results (and doesn't make remote workers feel like second-class citizens).
wpietri 4y ago
> I never really understood why people say productivity and socializing is difficult remote. If you'd like to understand, just go back and reread what you wrote. You described a lot of novel, innovative practices that require people to learn new habits and examine why their mostly subconscious, lifelong social habits aren't working for them anymore. That's hard! Hard enough that I'd guess you're in the top 1% of remote workplaces as far as collaboration goes. That you've managed to succeed at a small, all-remote place is impressive. But imagine trying to go back to your bigco and switch everybody over. That sounds extremely hard to me.
jejeyyy77 4y ago
I think one thing noone wants to admit is that a significant part of your team don't even want to "socialize" with coworkers outside of work. They want to just do their work, go home, and socialize with their friends/family.
- bastardoperator 4y ago
  It's sometimes referred to as "not shitting where you eat". My coworkers are not my friends or people I want socialize with outside of a work settings. I keep it like that on purpose. That doesn't mean I won't treat my coworkers with the utmost respect while being friendly and kind, or that they aren't awesome people, it just means I like to keep my personal life separate from my work life.
- dogman144 4y ago
  Exactly this in my opinion. There is a galaxy of op-eds, federal govt weigh-in, angry debates all largely hinging on this premise being true or not but not admitting to it.
DiggyJohnson 4y ago
> Socializing is encouraged via huddles in Slack and I can communicate with anyone in the company if I need to. I enjoy remote, but cannot agree with your comment. Socializing simply doesn't occur in Slack, for me. Communication, as you put it, does - but not the genuine socialization that I've come to miss.
kwanbix 4y ago
>I never really understood why people say productivity and socializing is difficult remote. Productivity, with the right mindset, tools, support, can probably be as good as in person. Now, I rather go see my friends in person than setup a Zoom meeting and be all virtually together. I rather go see my father and talk to him over WhatsApp. I rather go to Paris than watching a video of paris from my room. I no doubt doubt that socializing is much, much better in person.
__MatrixMan__ 4y ago
I feel much more socially connected with my remote team than I ever did in an office. I had such a hard time focusing in the office that whenever I'd finally achieve momentum, somebody stopping by to chat was bittersweet--it might be another several hours before I manage to reacquire that state. Usually I'd just waste time until everybody went home and then do my actual job in an empty office. I grew to resent them a teensy bit because their social habits had me "working" 12 hour days. Being remote, we use a slack app called donut (no affiliation, I just like it). It prompts me every week: > You've been randomly paired with so-and-so, here are several times that you're both available We pick one and have a 30 minute chat. Explicitly making time for social stuff really changes the equation. I'm working only 8 hrs a day for the first time since I started working a salaried job.
ianbutler 4y ago
I don’t enjoy remote collaboration. I’ve done a few different styles and I just vastly prefer being around people. You’ve described an entirely different dynamic and that’s fine, but it’s not the dynamic I’m interested in having. I already stare at a screen for programming I don’t want to stare at one for collaborating with people. For me it isn’t around the effort or lack thereof put into remote.
jbay808 4y ago
I suddenly remembered that in high school, the vast majority of my socializing was done via IM.
pojzon 4y ago
Do you guys pay based on cost of living or everyone gets “US rates”?
bonestamp2 4y ago
> Socializing is encouraged via huddles in Slack and I can communicate with anyone in the company if I need to. I've been remote for 14 years and I would never go back to the office. I have plenty of calls, direct messages and group messages for communicating with my colleagues, former colleagues, friends, family, etc. I'm happy that it is a good replacement for you, but I need some real face to face people time and I find it challenging to get enough of that when I'm remote. That said, that's part of why productivity can be higher in remote jobs, so it's a compromise that needs to be metered appropriately to maintain mental health and good relationships.
jayd16 4y ago
>sourcing candidates since we can pull from anywhere in the world What about work hours. Do you guys just never meet? How do you handle having to meet someone from Zurich and someone from Tokyo on the same day? If the answer is async communication, doesn't that lead to a long turnaround in certain cases that need high levels of collaboration?
smoe 4y ago
As someone that has always used whatever chat system the company is using to write the person right in front and next to me so to not interrupt their flow, I do not enjoy socializing via chat or even calls. Whether in profesional or personal life. Beyond the occasional meme or interesting content sharing. If I'm not working on something or I'm not in a meeting, I prefer spending time off screen. Having a stroll around the block, grabbing a coffee or lunch with someone, play some cards, etc. This doesn't mean automatically that I wouldn't run a company completely remote. Just wanted to chime in why socializing might be difficult for some in a remote environment.
winternett 4y ago
We really need more 6 hour work days on remote though. 8 hours on remote can often be just as tedious as being in office with productivity monitoring that companies do. At this point Slack should be running with full "voice to text capability... Even TikTok can transcribe audio. Too many things are just tedious and time consuming to do within modern companies. The pandemic gave so many a break to realize that for many roles, remote works better, yet productivity tools haven't innovated much to ease the transition. Companies will save tons of money on real estate and office equipment alone on a move to remote work, and the ability to hire independent of physical location is a big benefit of normalizing remote work. My biggest concerns in the evolution of remote work are usually security and authenticity, which always prove to be quickly evolving threats.
secondcoming 4y ago
> Socializing is encouraged via huddles in Slack It’s just not the same
mmsnberbar66 4y ago
what is 1/3/1?
woeh 4y ago
Where I work we used to do stuff during breaks, like play football in the park next to the office. Or fly around with tiny toy drones, or do other silly stuff. On Friday we used to have drinks, which more often then not resulted in a subset of the group having a bite to eat together. All of the above cannot be replaced digitally. When working from home you can decide to meet up, which does happen, but since it involves getting your calendars together, it hardly ever happens. I know lots of people want to keep business and personal split in their lives, and I respect that. For me though; I decided that since I spend 40 hours a week working, I better do this with people I like and enjoy spending time with.
- papito 4y ago
  Right on. Not to mention that some people need that kick in the behind to get up and do some exercise, which commuting and being in the office definitely is one. I have to clock over 3 miles in total going to my train and then the office, so I feel wired and alive when I come home. Working from home ALL the time requires a jedi level of discipline to not eat like a pig and work out.
tensor 4y ago
If socializing worked for your group you are by FAR the exception. I can tell you that my company tried everything over the years to get a solid socializing experience for remote workers. It. Just. Didn't. Work. It's far too different and people just didn't want to go to remote socializing events. Sure, there were pockets of people that played online games together or other niche activities, but these are not inclusive. Speaking of people from all over the world, at scale timezone differences also become a huge problem. No, not everyone wants to attend work meetings or social events either after local work hours or extremely early in the morning.
mym1990 4y ago
My leaderships idea of improving remote work culture is playing bingo at the all-hands. That's not even sarcasm. I don't feel like I particularly thrive in a remote environment, and you're right, I didn't really have to put thought into work social events(which I enjoyed), it was kind of an added perk. But I also recognize the benefits of it, and am certainly not complaining!
MuffinFlavored 4y ago
> and actively encourage 'water cooler' talk. I can't help but think the reason companies like Apple want employees to return to office is so that managers can "be more on top of them" (aka track their producitivty). It's interesting to see that at some companies, water cooler talk is encouraged. I used to work for a small mom + pop business where the owner saw every second we weren't working 8 hours a day as a wasted opportunity productivity wise for his wage dollar he was paying us. That's an extreme example but, where does the answer typically all? How much water cooler talk is encouraged, allowed, monitored, tracked? It's not hard to spend a few hours a day shooting the sh*t on Slack (or get together and go to a 1-2 hour lunch with everybody in office who can't really concentrate/is looking to do anything to pass time)... I don't know if management would like that?
PartiallyTyped 4y ago
Personally, I prefer having access to an office because it means I can separate work and home, I can use the commuting time to decompress e.g. walk and listen to an ebook/podcast, and I can use my office space at home to do other kinds of work.
babypuncher 4y ago
Different personality types. Some people thrive working remote, they can fulfill all (or most) of their daily social needs through slack and virtual meetings. Others need face to face time, or even just a regular "second place" that is separate from their living space. What I don't like is how dismissive everyone is of anyone who disagrees with them on WFH. Everybody is different.
turtlebits 4y ago
I'm started at a remote optional company 6 mo ago and just had a team on-site a few weeks ago. Collaboration was through the roof. Maybe it's how our previous virtual meetings were run, but it felt like items like planning, architecture discussions and reviewing strategy documents was 5x more productive in person than virtual.
jjice 4y ago
> I never really understood why people say productivity and socializing is difficult remote. Absolutely agree with productivity, partially agree with socializing. Socializing is still possible, but you lose out on things like impromptu conversations at the coffee maker and such. Also, if there's a big meeting, there can be one speaker at a time. In person, 60 people can be having 30 conversations in smaller groups. It's hard to pull off virtually. The latter point is something the company I work for has been experimenting with lately (not development wise, just how we can emulate that within). Tandem offers an "overhear" option in their Tables feature, which is alright. More distracting for some reason than in real life though. Break out rooms are okay, but have more of a barrier than turning to your left. Overall though, remote work rules and I don't think I'll ever go back.
impendia 4y ago
> I never really understood why people say productivity and socializing is difficult remote For me, there is something about the physical presence of other people that slows me down (in a good way). With online interaction, I too find myself impatient, and eager to bring whatever I'm doing to a conclusion. For example, around 20 years, I played a lot of go (the board game), both in-person and online. Online, I found myself playing impatiently and recklessly, especially if I was in the lead. Whereas in person it felt natural to take a long time, and I played better games and enjoyed myself much more in person. If productivity and socializing works for you remotely, wonderful! Far be it from me to piss on your parade. But I for one found the obstacles to be quite serious.
hosh 4y ago
I like remote work and have been doing so for more than ten years. I have found that the way people interact and socialize is different in-person than it is through remote tools: - Chat workspaces like Slack requires very different etiquette - Zoom and video meetings requries a different etiquette. You can't use body language to signal when you want to speak. On the other hand, the chat backchannel enables interactions you can't do with in-person meetings. - Writing and speaking engages different areas of the brain. Someone who is good at speaking is not necessarily be as good as writing, and vice versa - In-person work favors good speakers, and remote work favors good writers - The intuitions for how much to communicate is different between in-person and on remote. If you are used to in-person work, remote work requires a communication style that will feel like overcommunication, but it is not. - Socialization on remote, distributed teams are less spontaneous and requires more concious effort - When there's an in-person gathering with some remote people, remote-people tend to get forgotten. Decisions and ideas favor the people in-person. - When I joined my first distributed team (that's not as a solo contractor), the engineering manager made sure the team still got together periodically, because there are some things you can do in-person that is not so easy with remote. This can include going to conferences. It is far easier to get to know someone as a person (and not as their role) in-person than it is by remote - Some line of work favors remote than in-person, and vice versa. Software engineering can favor remote ... but not as much for creatives (like game studios) or sales. Perhaps one day, we'll see "How to Succeed at Remote Work Companies" in the self-help/career sections of the bookstore. The company I work for now organically grew into a distributed company. It did not start out that way, and the fully remote guy who came in before me pioneered the practices, equipment, to make that happen. (E.g. company all hand meetings were remote Zoom even though most of the people worked in the same office). The engineering team embraced remote-first, starting with the remote, morning standup. Some of the sales team in the field would remote in from time to time. When the lockdown came, the sales team got hit the hardest. They made it work, pioneered things like social time, and ended up embracing it when they hired remote from all around the country. Remote became part of the company culture.
escanda 4y ago
I heartfully agree. My experience with remote working for US companies has been: 1. been hired, 2. work for 3 or 4 months, 3. the company demands a local team in your site to continue working. Yep. Outsourcing work to other countries might be cheaper but from what I have seen there is no the same level of involvement of all parties. Much of the time both contractor and company are expendables. And yes, if you are lucky, you get to form a team and let them work for 6 months tops before client's dissolution. Perhaps in US market startups are an attractive thing but most senior (over 30+ years) talent will prefer a solid company at least here in Europe. YMMYV
bornfreddy 4y ago
A very specific question if I may... How do you handle cameras in meetings? Are they mandatory for everyone present? What do you do when someone has a bad connection? Asking because in all settings I was in, when someone came online with their camera off, others soon followed suit. At least to me, there is a huge difference between a videoconference and a voice chat... Seeing other people makes remote meetings much more pleasant. Or is it just me? What rules do those who work remotely have for video?

ImprobableTruth 4y ago

>Hybrid models will always struggle and 1/3/1 What does 1/3/1 refer to?

bearjaws 4y ago
Monday work from home. Tue-Thur work in office. Friday work from home.
- sdenton4 4y ago
  Or, perhaps, the reverse...

dgs_sgd 4y ago

How do you replicate water cooler talk in a fully remote environment? Do people do work while tuned in to a meeting where anyone can drop in and talk to them?

whateveracct 4y ago
Lots of public slack channels works pretty well in my experience. People end up talking about a lot in plain view and people hop in etc
- slothtrop 4y ago
  This feels about as intimate and satisfying as talking with randoms on discord. Or posting on HN.
  - distrill 4y ago
    in a huge company sure but in smaller startups it's fine, it's nice even. i've been at companies with 10 people and 10s of thousands and in between and obviously this stops holding true at a fairly small number of employees. but there are plenty of companies of the size that this works for fine.
  - whateveracct 4y ago
    It's not like it's random people every time though. There tend to be regulars in certain discussions and interest groups. Just like forums and chat rooms (on which I've definitely made connections with "randoms" due to discussing shared interests online and having a persistent identity there.
macintux 4y ago
When I started working for Basho, which was fully remote, many of the engineers were logged to a Mumble channel for chatting, while simultaneously on Slack. I couldn't handle that level of distraction, but some of them clearly enjoyed it.
KerrAvon 4y ago
If I want to talk about what happened on Johnny Carson last night I get in my DeLorean and rev it up to 88 mph. WTF have we become.
- 4y ago

rngname22 4y ago

Have you considered that those of your view and those espousing that remote is more difficult might have different personalities, levels of need of social interaction, or lifestyles? Have you considered that your company is self-selecting for those who flourish in remote, but that those whose personalities differ are self-selecting for working in an office environment? It's OK for there to not be a one size fits all solution.

andrewingram 4y ago
Right. During my somewhat passive job search, I've only been considering companies that have an office local to me (i.e. Central London). I've been working remotely since the start of the pandemic, and I simply don't like it. Sure, I don't miss having to commute or offices with bad noise pollution controls, but I miss everything else. Most of all, I miss being in town at the end of the day and being able to pop to the pub with colleagues if one of us needs to vent, or go to a salsa party nearby. I basically don't go out anymore; yes, this is a me thing, but it's also always been a me thing. I've always found it easier to have a social life on weeknights rather than weekends because I struggle to overcome the inertia of being at home. This preference means some very exciting companies are effectively off-limits to me, and that's hugely frustrating; but I also know what I need.
- SQueeeeeL 4y ago
  > yes, this is a me thing, but it's also always been a me thing I feel like picking jobs off of a desire to live a social life and feel like part of a community is extremely normal and valid. Remote work is essentially accepting that the primary way you'll engage with your colleagues and labor is through a screen, and that is an uncomfortable feeling (to some people at least)
  - tjr225 4y ago
    There will be a reckoning when we collectively realize that putting more and more, and eventually all, of our lives on the internet is not good for us.

SkyPuncher 4y ago

On my team, we've had to be intentional about creating time specifically for social events (fully optional). It can be challenging since it doesn't feel "productive" and it takes a long time to see the benefits.

insane_dreamer 4y ago

I sort of agree. We (small startup) went fully remote with COVID and remain so. Work communication is fine, but socializing doesn't happen the way it did at the office. It works okay because most of us had already been working together at the office, but it's harder for new hires, and especially for young junior-level engineers without much experience (i.e., fresh out of college). Hasn't worked well for interns either. But for older, experienced, workers who are able to communicate effectively online and would much rather not be bothered to go into an office, it works well. We haven't tried hybrid but I don't really see the benefits of it. One big advantage of remote is being able to hire people in other locations. The only way I could see hybrid being useful would be to provide a work space for people who want to work away from home (i.e., for variety or because their house isn't conducive to it), and let those who prefer to work from home (i.e., parents with young kids who need a more flex schedule) do so without set office day requirements (or very few).

mingusrude 4y ago
In the book "A year without pants" by Scott Berkun where he spends a year with Wordpress and their then somewhat unique remote model, he emphasizes that it's still important for many to meet, it's just not necessary every day. I've worked remotely for almost 20 years and I believe quite strongly that remote companies often underestimate the importance of actually meeting occasionally, maybe every 3-6 months. Maybe importance is too strong, maybe it's just fun to meet up every now and then and share some adventures.

lm28469 4y ago

> Meanwhile we have had no problem sourcing candidates since we can pull from anywhere in the world, we have some incredible people all over the world that we would not have gotten otherwise. How do you handle taxes ? For example in Europe a German company can't hire a French dev if the german company doesn't have a legal entity in France, it quickly gets out of control both in term of paperwork and cost. The dev can't be a freelancer because a freelancer with a full time, fixed hours, single customer is illegal in many places Also let's say you have an American company with 200 german employees but no office on german soil, does that mean they don't pay any local tax because technically they don't operate their business in the country ? I feel like a lot of loopholes which were seldom used will promptly be closed once they become widely used

bearjaws 4y ago
We use a service called Deel, but we are US entity and that helps in many cases. Essentially they have companies in most countries and you pay them (deel) directly and then they payout to your staff. This also simplifies benefits for healthcare, taxes, retirement. If you find it helpful, heres my referral code https://deel.com/referrals/Michael-n53jPEZJ https://deel.com/referrals/Michael-n53jPEZJ
- andrewingram 4y ago
  How are preferential equity schemes handled? i.e in the UK, best case tax rate on equity is 10%. But if you're not on government-approved scheme, you'll get taxed at around 55% in the event of a meaningful exit. When I've raised this previously, the point has been dismissed as "45% of lots is still lots", but if you're doing an expected returns calculation and considering other jobs (like a large well-paying org with RSUs) it becomes quite meaningful.
- lm28469 4y ago
  What happens when an employee is fired or quits ? Does he qualifies for unemployment benefits ? And who pays for it ?
  - 4y ago

pc86 4y ago

Are you hiring? :)

icy 4y ago
I too would like to know.

icedchai 4y ago

Communications and collaboration is very important. However, "socializing" through Slack is simply just not the same as going out to lunch with a coworker, for example. Permanent remote work has a very detached feel to it, at least for me.

danwee 4y ago
I don't get this. If you have a coworker that enjoy having lunch with you... what's stopping you both doing so? I mean, even if you both work from home, you could still schedule a lunch together in the city, right? If you both live in different cities, well, I guess before COVID you weren't having lunch together that frequently. 100% remote doesn't dictate how (or with who) you eat lunch.
- slothtrop 4y ago
  Even if you lived in the same city, you'd have to waste time commuting from respective neighborhoods to some halfway point, which could easily be 30 min off your lunch hour.
- icedchai 4y ago
  Well, physical distance might be a factor: they're 500 miles away. Previous company, everyone I worked with was 1000+ miles.
- kwanbix 4y ago
  Nothing stops you. But being together "forces" you to socialize. When I turn off the camera, you are gone.
- devmunchies 4y ago
  Just based on basic behavioral science and statistics, every desired action from pt A to pt B (e.g. visit website -> buy a product) is a collection of smaller actions that comprise a funnel. For example, in the funnel of a customer visiting amazon to finally buying a product, amazon loses millions of dollars when initial page load times are 300ms slower within that funnel. Any added friction between stages in a funnel will reduce the result at the end of the funnel. You add scheduling complexity, physical driving, distributed workforces, etc, and the number of shared lunches are going to drop super fast. Hell, you put 2 onsite employees in 2 different buildings on campus and their chance at a lunch together will drop. If you or your company cares about in-person collaboration or socializing, you had better foster that behavior and not count on raw willpower to break out of the mold.

icare_1er 4y ago

Have you made good friends amongst your colleagues in your remote company, during the remote-work era ? All the trustworthy people i know from work were people i socialized with in person, at the office, around coffe-breaks, post-work drinks, etc. I don't see something similar happening over Zoom meetings and my guess is that 95% of people are like me in that regards. Now, this may not be a big deal over the short-term but I believe that an actual company culture need actual tangible human bonds over the long-term.

SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
That may be bad for the company, but I don't see it as being bad for the worker. Less work friends, but less loyalty so it's easier to pack and move on when it's time.
eropple 4y ago
> Have you made good friends amongst your colleagues in your remote company, during the remote-work era ? Not the OP, but I certainly have. It takes some effort, but it's not particularly difficult if you know and understand how to communicate effectively over a remote medium. It requires an understanding of how communications attenuate over a screen--you need to project!, in-person-normal levels of reservation tends to seem unfriendly. It requires not just strong writing and reading comprehension skills, but reflexively strong capabilities in both of those areas; it needs to be inherent enough that you aren't "turning it on", you're just doing it. And I'm sure some people can't do that. But I've been making friends on the Internet, as well as in person, for about thirty years now, and I've now started two separate jobs since March 2020 and I've met people I'd consider good friends at both of them.
- rowanajmarshall 4y ago
  > It takes some effort, but it's not particularly difficult if you know and understand how to communicate effectively over a remote medium So I've got zero doubt you _can_ do that, I did over lockdown. But if we make socialising systemically harder across the board, we're basically setting ourselves up to be a lonelier, more isolated society.

mbesto 4y ago

> Hybrid models will always struggle and 1/3/1 is going to be probably the best you can do. I think you should elaborate on why the hybrid model is a struggle, I personally don't see it as one.

danwee 4y ago
For me at least, hybrid (some days remote, some days at the office) makes impossible to live in Antwerp and to work for a company based in Amsterdam. Commute is, at best, 2h one way. Same about working for any other Dutch company that is not based on Antwerp. So, basically hybrid means "back to pre-COVID times" when it comes to the pool of companies I can apply to.
bart_spoon 4y ago
Its the worst of both worlds. The benefit of remote work is that it gives employees the flexibility to live where they want, and eliminates daily miseries like a commute, both of which the pandemic have proven to be massive priorities for employees. It opens up potential hires to anywhere in the country (or even world). It also allows you to focus on investing in software and practices aimed at maximizing remote effectiveness. You also can potentially greatly downsize or even eliminate a physical office. In office work benefits are often said to include the socialization, and in particular "water-cooler talk" that is supposedly better for collaboration. When everyone is going to the office, the company can also invest into more extensive facitilites, including amenities that make being at the office more pleasant (a gym, catering, etc). With hybrid, you are simultaneously eliminating the ability for employees to live somewhere where they don't need to commute to the office regularly. You also make it so that investing in remote-friendly tools, and office amenities, are both required and less beneficial than if you just picked one. And if "water-cooler talk" and in person collaboration really is that much more effective, then you are still reducing the capacity for that happening by 40+% or more by letting employees work from home 2 or more days a week. I personally vastly prefer 100% remote, but I don't really see the point of hybrid if the company is going to insist on people coming back to the office. And in my case, it would literally be impossible since I (and many others who have been hired since the pandemic started) are hundreds of miles away from the office.

cube2222 4y ago

I agree. I think the problem is companies that try to do a hybrid model, and end up using tools and workflows optimized for on-site work, which makes the remote experience very subpar and clunky. In a remote-first company, everything (tools, workflows, etc.) will be organized around that remoteness, which yields much better results (and doesn't make remote workers feel like second-class citizens).

wpietri 4y ago

> I never really understood why people say productivity and socializing is difficult remote. If you'd like to understand, just go back and reread what you wrote. You described a lot of novel, innovative practices that require people to learn new habits and examine why their mostly subconscious, lifelong social habits aren't working for them anymore. That's hard! Hard enough that I'd guess you're in the top 1% of remote workplaces as far as collaboration goes. That you've managed to succeed at a small, all-remote place is impressive. But imagine trying to go back to your bigco and switch everybody over. That sounds extremely hard to me.

jejeyyy77 4y ago

I think one thing noone wants to admit is that a significant part of your team don't even want to "socialize" with coworkers outside of work. They want to just do their work, go home, and socialize with their friends/family.

bastardoperator 4y ago
It's sometimes referred to as "not shitting where you eat". My coworkers are not my friends or people I want socialize with outside of a work settings. I keep it like that on purpose. That doesn't mean I won't treat my coworkers with the utmost respect while being friendly and kind, or that they aren't awesome people, it just means I like to keep my personal life separate from my work life.
dogman144 4y ago
Exactly this in my opinion. There is a galaxy of op-eds, federal govt weigh-in, angry debates all largely hinging on this premise being true or not but not admitting to it.

DiggyJohnson 4y ago

> Socializing is encouraged via huddles in Slack and I can communicate with anyone in the company if I need to. I enjoy remote, but cannot agree with your comment. Socializing simply doesn't occur in Slack, for me. Communication, as you put it, does - but not the genuine socialization that I've come to miss.

kwanbix 4y ago

>I never really understood why people say productivity and socializing is difficult remote. Productivity, with the right mindset, tools, support, can probably be as good as in person. Now, I rather go see my friends in person than setup a Zoom meeting and be all virtually together. I rather go see my father and talk to him over WhatsApp. I rather go to Paris than watching a video of paris from my room. I no doubt doubt that socializing is much, much better in person.

__MatrixMan__ 4y ago

I feel much more socially connected with my remote team than I ever did in an office. I had such a hard time focusing in the office that whenever I'd finally achieve momentum, somebody stopping by to chat was bittersweet--it might be another several hours before I manage to reacquire that state. Usually I'd just waste time until everybody went home and then do my actual job in an empty office. I grew to resent them a teensy bit because their social habits had me "working" 12 hour days. Being remote, we use a slack app called donut (no affiliation, I just like it). It prompts me every week: > You've been randomly paired with so-and-so, here are several times that you're both available We pick one and have a 30 minute chat. Explicitly making time for social stuff really changes the equation. I'm working only 8 hrs a day for the first time since I started working a salaried job.

ianbutler 4y ago

I don’t enjoy remote collaboration. I’ve done a few different styles and I just vastly prefer being around people. You’ve described an entirely different dynamic and that’s fine, but it’s not the dynamic I’m interested in having. I already stare at a screen for programming I don’t want to stare at one for collaborating with people. For me it isn’t around the effort or lack thereof put into remote.

jbay808 4y ago

I suddenly remembered that in high school, the vast majority of my socializing was done via IM.

pojzon 4y ago

Do you guys pay based on cost of living or everyone gets “US rates”?

bonestamp2 4y ago

> Socializing is encouraged via huddles in Slack and I can communicate with anyone in the company if I need to. I've been remote for 14 years and I would never go back to the office. I have plenty of calls, direct messages and group messages for communicating with my colleagues, former colleagues, friends, family, etc. I'm happy that it is a good replacement for you, but I need some real face to face people time and I find it challenging to get enough of that when I'm remote. That said, that's part of why productivity can be higher in remote jobs, so it's a compromise that needs to be metered appropriately to maintain mental health and good relationships.

jayd16 4y ago

>sourcing candidates since we can pull from anywhere in the world What about work hours. Do you guys just never meet? How do you handle having to meet someone from Zurich and someone from Tokyo on the same day? If the answer is async communication, doesn't that lead to a long turnaround in certain cases that need high levels of collaboration?

smoe 4y ago

As someone that has always used whatever chat system the company is using to write the person right in front and next to me so to not interrupt their flow, I do not enjoy socializing via chat or even calls. Whether in profesional or personal life. Beyond the occasional meme or interesting content sharing. If I'm not working on something or I'm not in a meeting, I prefer spending time off screen. Having a stroll around the block, grabbing a coffee or lunch with someone, play some cards, etc. This doesn't mean automatically that I wouldn't run a company completely remote. Just wanted to chime in why socializing might be difficult for some in a remote environment.

winternett 4y ago

We really need more 6 hour work days on remote though. 8 hours on remote can often be just as tedious as being in office with productivity monitoring that companies do. At this point Slack should be running with full "voice to text capability... Even TikTok can transcribe audio. Too many things are just tedious and time consuming to do within modern companies. The pandemic gave so many a break to realize that for many roles, remote works better, yet productivity tools haven't innovated much to ease the transition. Companies will save tons of money on real estate and office equipment alone on a move to remote work, and the ability to hire independent of physical location is a big benefit of normalizing remote work. My biggest concerns in the evolution of remote work are usually security and authenticity, which always prove to be quickly evolving threats.

secondcoming 4y ago

> Socializing is encouraged via huddles in Slack It’s just not the same

mmsnberbar66 4y ago

what is 1/3/1?

woeh 4y ago

Where I work we used to do stuff during breaks, like play football in the park next to the office. Or fly around with tiny toy drones, or do other silly stuff. On Friday we used to have drinks, which more often then not resulted in a subset of the group having a bite to eat together. All of the above cannot be replaced digitally. When working from home you can decide to meet up, which does happen, but since it involves getting your calendars together, it hardly ever happens. I know lots of people want to keep business and personal split in their lives, and I respect that. For me though; I decided that since I spend 40 hours a week working, I better do this with people I like and enjoy spending time with.

papito 4y ago
Right on. Not to mention that some people need that kick in the behind to get up and do some exercise, which commuting and being in the office definitely is one. I have to clock over 3 miles in total going to my train and then the office, so I feel wired and alive when I come home. Working from home ALL the time requires a jedi level of discipline to not eat like a pig and work out.

tensor 4y ago

If socializing worked for your group you are by FAR the exception. I can tell you that my company tried everything over the years to get a solid socializing experience for remote workers. It. Just. Didn't. Work. It's far too different and people just didn't want to go to remote socializing events. Sure, there were pockets of people that played online games together or other niche activities, but these are not inclusive. Speaking of people from all over the world, at scale timezone differences also become a huge problem. No, not everyone wants to attend work meetings or social events either after local work hours or extremely early in the morning.

mym1990 4y ago

My leaderships idea of improving remote work culture is playing bingo at the all-hands. That's not even sarcasm. I don't feel like I particularly thrive in a remote environment, and you're right, I didn't really have to put thought into work social events(which I enjoyed), it was kind of an added perk. But I also recognize the benefits of it, and am certainly not complaining!

MuffinFlavored 4y ago

> and actively encourage 'water cooler' talk. I can't help but think the reason companies like Apple want employees to return to office is so that managers can "be more on top of them" (aka track their producitivty). It's interesting to see that at some companies, water cooler talk is encouraged. I used to work for a small mom + pop business where the owner saw every second we weren't working 8 hours a day as a wasted opportunity productivity wise for his wage dollar he was paying us. That's an extreme example but, where does the answer typically all? How much water cooler talk is encouraged, allowed, monitored, tracked? It's not hard to spend a few hours a day shooting the sh*t on Slack (or get together and go to a 1-2 hour lunch with everybody in office who can't really concentrate/is looking to do anything to pass time)... I don't know if management would like that?

PartiallyTyped 4y ago

Personally, I prefer having access to an office because it means I can separate work and home, I can use the commuting time to decompress e.g. walk and listen to an ebook/podcast, and I can use my office space at home to do other kinds of work.

babypuncher 4y ago

Different personality types. Some people thrive working remote, they can fulfill all (or most) of their daily social needs through slack and virtual meetings. Others need face to face time, or even just a regular "second place" that is separate from their living space. What I don't like is how dismissive everyone is of anyone who disagrees with them on WFH. Everybody is different.

turtlebits 4y ago

I'm started at a remote optional company 6 mo ago and just had a team on-site a few weeks ago. Collaboration was through the roof. Maybe it's how our previous virtual meetings were run, but it felt like items like planning, architecture discussions and reviewing strategy documents was 5x more productive in person than virtual.

jjice 4y ago

> I never really understood why people say productivity and socializing is difficult remote. Absolutely agree with productivity, partially agree with socializing. Socializing is still possible, but you lose out on things like impromptu conversations at the coffee maker and such. Also, if there's a big meeting, there can be one speaker at a time. In person, 60 people can be having 30 conversations in smaller groups. It's hard to pull off virtually. The latter point is something the company I work for has been experimenting with lately (not development wise, just how we can emulate that within). Tandem offers an "overhear" option in their Tables feature, which is alright. More distracting for some reason than in real life though. Break out rooms are okay, but have more of a barrier than turning to your left. Overall though, remote work rules and I don't think I'll ever go back.

impendia 4y ago

> I never really understood why people say productivity and socializing is difficult remote For me, there is something about the physical presence of other people that slows me down (in a good way). With online interaction, I too find myself impatient, and eager to bring whatever I'm doing to a conclusion. For example, around 20 years, I played a lot of go (the board game), both in-person and online. Online, I found myself playing impatiently and recklessly, especially if I was in the lead. Whereas in person it felt natural to take a long time, and I played better games and enjoyed myself much more in person. If productivity and socializing works for you remotely, wonderful! Far be it from me to piss on your parade. But I for one found the obstacles to be quite serious.

hosh 4y ago

I like remote work and have been doing so for more than ten years. I have found that the way people interact and socialize is different in-person than it is through remote tools: - Chat workspaces like Slack requires very different etiquette - Zoom and video meetings requries a different etiquette. You can't use body language to signal when you want to speak. On the other hand, the chat backchannel enables interactions you can't do with in-person meetings. - Writing and speaking engages different areas of the brain. Someone who is good at speaking is not necessarily be as good as writing, and vice versa - In-person work favors good speakers, and remote work favors good writers - The intuitions for how much to communicate is different between in-person and on remote. If you are used to in-person work, remote work requires a communication style that will feel like overcommunication, but it is not. - Socialization on remote, distributed teams are less spontaneous and requires more concious effort - When there's an in-person gathering with some remote people, remote-people tend to get forgotten. Decisions and ideas favor the people in-person. - When I joined my first distributed team (that's not as a solo contractor), the engineering manager made sure the team still got together periodically, because there are some things you can do in-person that is not so easy with remote. This can include going to conferences. It is far easier to get to know someone as a person (and not as their role) in-person than it is by remote - Some line of work favors remote than in-person, and vice versa. Software engineering can favor remote ... but not as much for creatives (like game studios) or sales. Perhaps one day, we'll see "How to Succeed at Remote Work Companies" in the self-help/career sections of the bookstore. The company I work for now organically grew into a distributed company. It did not start out that way, and the fully remote guy who came in before me pioneered the practices, equipment, to make that happen. (E.g. company all hand meetings were remote Zoom even though most of the people worked in the same office). The engineering team embraced remote-first, starting with the remote, morning standup. Some of the sales team in the field would remote in from time to time. When the lockdown came, the sales team got hit the hardest. They made it work, pioneered things like social time, and ended up embracing it when they hired remote from all around the country. Remote became part of the company culture.

escanda 4y ago

I heartfully agree. My experience with remote working for US companies has been: 1. been hired, 2. work for 3 or 4 months, 3. the company demands a local team in your site to continue working. Yep. Outsourcing work to other countries might be cheaper but from what I have seen there is no the same level of involvement of all parties. Much of the time both contractor and company are expendables. And yes, if you are lucky, you get to form a team and let them work for 6 months tops before client's dissolution. Perhaps in US market startups are an attractive thing but most senior (over 30+ years) talent will prefer a solid company at least here in Europe. YMMYV

bornfreddy 4y ago

A very specific question if I may... How do you handle cameras in meetings? Are they mandatory for everyone present? What do you do when someone has a bad connection? Asking because in all settings I was in, when someone came online with their camera off, others soon followed suit. At least to me, there is a huge difference between a videoconference and a voice chat... Seeing other people makes remote meetings much more pleasant. Or is it just me? What rules do those who work remotely have for video?