4 ms·

Fascinating; I never realized Oracle is such a massive player in that space. Ugh :(

by NikolaNovak 4y ago

ethbr0 4y ago
1. Is it profitable? 2. Is it evil? Then yes, Oracle is a big player in that space.
- zdragnar 4y ago
  > 2. Is it evil? You're making the mistake of anthropomorphizing the lawn mower. It's not evil, it just is.
  - thatguy0900 4y ago
    Not really fitting. Oracle is just a group of people. If you take away the rider, a lawnmower is still a lawnmower. If you take away the employees oracle entirely ceases to exist. You can't hand wave their moral responsibilities as humans.
  - sockaddr 4y ago
    Yes, but the lawnmower was designed and is being pushed by a human (Ellison), no? Then one could say it's an evil tool? It's really not that much of a stretch to anthropomorphize things when we view tools as extensions of ourselves.
    - mintplant 4y ago
      Ellison isn't pushing the lawnmower, he is the lawnmower. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5170246 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5170246
  - sophacles 4y ago
    What's the lawnmower here? The corporation? But corporations are people, so how is treating a person like a person anthropomorphification?
    - mohaine 4y ago
      You really need to watch the video but TL:DR is that Oracle isn't per say evil, it just chases profit like a lawnmower cuts grass. If you get your foot cut off by the lawnmower, it isn't the lawnmowers fault as it wasn't out to get you, just out to cut grass. The same is 'true' of Oracle wrt them chasing profit. If you stand between them and profit, that is your fault if you get hurt as you always know what Oracle is going to do in that situation.
      - sophacles 4y ago
        Oracle is people. Both in some abstract legal sense and in a literal sense: its a group of people doing things. As such they are accountable for their actions - what sort of utter stupidity is this "oh but since the word corporation is involved we don't need to hold people accountable" bullshit you are spewing?
        mohaine 4y ago
        Woa. I was just explaining the context for the above quotes, no reason to get hostile.
  - buscoquadnary 4y ago
    For those curious check out the 3 minutes of this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc&t=2601s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc&t=2601s
  - mohaine 4y ago
    Correct. Oracle doesn't care what comes after 1)
    - petesergeant 4y ago
      that seems like a pretty good definition of evil
  - hristov 4y ago
    Oracle is anthropomorphic. It is, after all, just a bunch of people. What Oracle does is done by people that hold various positions within Oracle.
    - buscoquadnary 4y ago
      The parent is referring to this talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc&t=2601s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc&t=2601s Oracle is lawnmower, it doesn't hate you, it doesn't have feelings, Oracle is as mindless and soulless as a lawnmower, however instead of mowing the lawn it makes money. Oracle doesn't have feelings, it is for all intents and purposes the Borg.
      - zx85wes 4y ago
        If I was Borg I would take offence
      - powerhour 4y ago
        Except the Borg don't have individuality whereas the people at Oracle do. I'm tired of pretending that, say, individual human SEs are not responsible for their work because they're just doing what a corporation demands.
        josefx 4y ago
        > Except the Borg don't have individuality whereas the people at Oracle do. Sadly we know that groupthink is a thing and that many people seek conformity over conflict and correctness. You can safely assume that anyone working for Oracle is a mindless Borg drone out for more money without any care what they destroy to reach that goal. They are still guilty as hell but from a general apathy and not some active choice to be evil.
        cmrdporcupine 4y ago
        Fine, you can try to hold the developers responsible.. somehow. Except it won't mean anything. Because someone will just fill their shoes after they leave. There's enough money to make that possible. And in fact it's the companies doing the most icky things that have the most money to just go hire more. That's where the revenue firehose is. When I was at Google, it was internal culture for Googlers to raise a fuss about a lot of things all the time -- despite the company being an advertising company there was a general uneasiness about crossing various "lines in the sand". There was a very active internal dissent culture, on "memegen" and the weekly TGIF all-hands, and so on. It was broadly acceptible to stand up at TGIF and politely take Larry to task on some thing that was seen as crossing this line in the sand. It happened all the time. Over time the company just got better and better at evading responsibility to this pitchfork crowd. After all, they had investors to satisfy. And the "line in the sand" just got further and further out, and what was seen as "creepy" and "not Googley" and against company principles just got more and more watered down. And if you walked away from that (like I did, not that I was of any importance)? Google has plenty of money to go hire new SWEs. The answer has to be regulation that sits above and beyond the corporations. Nationwide or global standards of behaviour, enforced by law, that set basic ground rules for what is permissible in the market. How we get there from here, I don't know. Some jurisdictions have been better about this than others.
  - sudden_dystopia 4y ago
    Is it not run by people?
- kaba0 4y ago
  1. it is profitable? EOF Every big enough company is like that. They are the stereotypical paperclip machines. They only do something apparently moral thing if not doing that would impact profits.
- Traubenfuchs 4y ago
  Insulin pricing in the USA?
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  Number 2 is not necessary. Oracle will make it evil, it doesn't have to come externally. And... now that I said it, number 1 is also not necessary, Oracle will take their profits from bribed markets or courts if they need, it doesn't have to come from a normal market relation.
nemothekid 4y ago
I think the lawsuit is probably referring to BlueKai which was a company Oracle bought in 2014. I’m not even sure if they are the biggest third party DMP out there

Fascinating; I never realized Oracle is such a massive player in that space. Ugh :(

ethbr0 4y ago

1. Is it profitable? 2. Is it evil? Then yes, Oracle is a big player in that space.

zdragnar 4y ago
> 2. Is it evil? You're making the mistake of anthropomorphizing the lawn mower. It's not evil, it just is.
- thatguy0900 4y ago
  Not really fitting. Oracle is just a group of people. If you take away the rider, a lawnmower is still a lawnmower. If you take away the employees oracle entirely ceases to exist. You can't hand wave their moral responsibilities as humans.
- sockaddr 4y ago
  Yes, but the lawnmower was designed and is being pushed by a human (Ellison), no? Then one could say it's an evil tool? It's really not that much of a stretch to anthropomorphize things when we view tools as extensions of ourselves.
  - mintplant 4y ago
    Ellison isn't pushing the lawnmower, he is the lawnmower. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5170246 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5170246
- sophacles 4y ago
  What's the lawnmower here? The corporation? But corporations are people, so how is treating a person like a person anthropomorphification?
  - mohaine 4y ago
    You really need to watch the video but TL:DR is that Oracle isn't per say evil, it just chases profit like a lawnmower cuts grass. If you get your foot cut off by the lawnmower, it isn't the lawnmowers fault as it wasn't out to get you, just out to cut grass. The same is 'true' of Oracle wrt them chasing profit. If you stand between them and profit, that is your fault if you get hurt as you always know what Oracle is going to do in that situation.
    - sophacles 4y ago
      Oracle is people. Both in some abstract legal sense and in a literal sense: its a group of people doing things. As such they are accountable for their actions - what sort of utter stupidity is this "oh but since the word corporation is involved we don't need to hold people accountable" bullshit you are spewing?
      - mohaine 4y ago
        Woa. I was just explaining the context for the above quotes, no reason to get hostile.
- buscoquadnary 4y ago
  For those curious check out the 3 minutes of this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc&t=2601s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc&t=2601s
- mohaine 4y ago
  Correct. Oracle doesn't care what comes after 1)
  - petesergeant 4y ago
    that seems like a pretty good definition of evil
- hristov 4y ago
  Oracle is anthropomorphic. It is, after all, just a bunch of people. What Oracle does is done by people that hold various positions within Oracle.
  - buscoquadnary 4y ago
    The parent is referring to this talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc&t=2601s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc&t=2601s Oracle is lawnmower, it doesn't hate you, it doesn't have feelings, Oracle is as mindless and soulless as a lawnmower, however instead of mowing the lawn it makes money. Oracle doesn't have feelings, it is for all intents and purposes the Borg.
    - zx85wes 4y ago
      If I was Borg I would take offence
    - powerhour 4y ago
      Except the Borg don't have individuality whereas the people at Oracle do. I'm tired of pretending that, say, individual human SEs are not responsible for their work because they're just doing what a corporation demands.
      - josefx 4y ago
        > Except the Borg don't have individuality whereas the people at Oracle do. Sadly we know that groupthink is a thing and that many people seek conformity over conflict and correctness. You can safely assume that anyone working for Oracle is a mindless Borg drone out for more money without any care what they destroy to reach that goal. They are still guilty as hell but from a general apathy and not some active choice to be evil.
      - cmrdporcupine 4y ago
        Fine, you can try to hold the developers responsible.. somehow. Except it won't mean anything. Because someone will just fill their shoes after they leave. There's enough money to make that possible. And in fact it's the companies doing the most icky things that have the most money to just go hire more. That's where the revenue firehose is. When I was at Google, it was internal culture for Googlers to raise a fuss about a lot of things all the time -- despite the company being an advertising company there was a general uneasiness about crossing various "lines in the sand". There was a very active internal dissent culture, on "memegen" and the weekly TGIF all-hands, and so on. It was broadly acceptible to stand up at TGIF and politely take Larry to task on some thing that was seen as crossing this line in the sand. It happened all the time. Over time the company just got better and better at evading responsibility to this pitchfork crowd. After all, they had investors to satisfy. And the "line in the sand" just got further and further out, and what was seen as "creepy" and "not Googley" and against company principles just got more and more watered down. And if you walked away from that (like I did, not that I was of any importance)? Google has plenty of money to go hire new SWEs. The answer has to be regulation that sits above and beyond the corporations. Nationwide or global standards of behaviour, enforced by law, that set basic ground rules for what is permissible in the market. How we get there from here, I don't know. Some jurisdictions have been better about this than others.
- sudden_dystopia 4y ago
  Is it not run by people?
kaba0 4y ago
1. it is profitable? EOF Every big enough company is like that. They are the stereotypical paperclip machines. They only do something apparently moral thing if not doing that would impact profits.
Traubenfuchs 4y ago
Insulin pricing in the USA?
marcosdumay 4y ago
Number 2 is not necessary. Oracle will make it evil, it doesn't have to come externally. And... now that I said it, number 1 is also not necessary, Oracle will take their profits from bribed markets or courts if they need, it doesn't have to come from a normal market relation.

nemothekid 4y ago

I think the lawsuit is probably referring to BlueKai which was a company Oracle bought in 2014. I’m not even sure if they are the biggest third party DMP out there