6 ms·

I suspect the system works as intented. American economy and people profit off of illegal immigrants' cheap labor, but at the same time the legal system does no

by badpun 4y ago

I suspect the system works as intented. American economy and people profit off of illegal immigrants' cheap labor, but at the same time the legal system does not recognize them, so that they can be squeezed even more with no recourse. That's how the country was built in the past and that is what it is still doing - and it's working extremely well. I don't believe it will ever be changed. Oh, and H1-B is the same principle, but for coders and such. It has to be made nicer, because coders have better options worldwide - but it's only made as nice as absolutely necessary to keep the cheap people coming in.

rayiner 4y ago
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  Sorry the who?
  - rayiner 4y ago
    Globalists. Adjective form of people who think globalism—free movement of labor and capital across borders—is a good thing: https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-obama-united-nations-20160920-snap-story.html https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-obama-united-nations-20... See also socialism :: socialist and capitalism :: capitalist.
    - giraffe_lady 4y ago
      Ok and so have you ever noticed that quite often when people refer to "the globalists" they have a different group in mind?
      - xyzzyz 4y ago
        What are you even talking about?
        tptacek 4y ago
        They're referring to the fact that "globalist" is code for "Jewish" among antisemites. Rayiner isn't being antisemitic, and is talking about the word in its original meaning.
        xyzzyz 4y ago
        That's not only extremely silly, it's in fact a pernicious kafkatrap. What if all globalists actually happened to be Jewish? There would have been no way to criticize them for their globalist ideas -- if you did that, you'd immediately be criticized as anti-semite, despite explicitly specifying the set of ideas you don't like and separating them from Jewishness of their proponents, never mentioning it. How lucky we are that there are plenty of non-Jewish globalists, allowing us to criticize globalism.
        tptacek 4y ago
        It's not extremely silly. It's absolutely a code word among antisemites. And, once again: Rayiner isn't using the word that way, so there's no need to deploy ESR-speak against me. Please take it somewhere else. You asked what the subtext of the word is, and I provided it.
      - rayiner 4y ago
        I’ve encountered Bush/Obama types who believe in free movement of labor and capital trying to redefine it as a reference to Jewish people to avoid discussion of the merits of their ideas, if that’s what you mean. Sorry, but globalism is an important phenomenon for discussion, just as capitalism and socialism and communism were in the 20th century. We’re not going to make the obvious label to describe proponents of that ideology taboo based on some completely contrived dog whistle. (Not only contrived but non-sensical given that Israel has very traditional and non-globalist views of what it means to be a nation.)
realce 4y ago
> so that they can be squeezed even more with no recourse IMO it's about labor pressure on actual US citizens. You know that some illegal immigrant could be hired to take a low-wage position over you, therefore you don't have actual labor bloc leverage from withholding your labor from those positions. Prevents unions, prevents wage raises, prevents strikes, prevents all progress in those classes of work. They use these folks against US workers all the time.
- spamizbad 4y ago
  Interesting that illegal immigration - something that has been a major concern since the 90s - became a major flashpoint after the courts chipped away significantly at labor rights and peak (illegal) immigration was over for 2 decades.
  - nradov 4y ago
    The number of illegal aliens present in the country appears to have peaked in 2007. So somewhat later than 2 decades. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/04/13/key-facts-about-the-changing-u-s-unauthorized-immigrant-population/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/04/13/key-facts-a...
- daniel-cussen 4y ago
  Both are correct. That's why the executive is sabotaging immigration control right now, it's like telling the world come to America. 10x more Cubans, Haitians, Brazillians crossing the border cararraja why? To stop that inflation! No unions, no inflation, no dignity in the workplace, up that unemployment in real life (but not on paper, turn those 9's into 6's).
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    > 10x more Cubans, Haitians, Brazillians crossing the border Do you have a source for this?
    - 4y ago
bashmelek 4y ago
I also worry about all kinds of other exploitation that could result from the immigrants’ legal situation.
TwoFerMaggie 4y ago
This is sadly how a lot of economies function. Something is dangled in front of you (life in the big cities, citizenship in developed countries, etc.), and in order to get that you must agree to be exploited, to different extents. This way inhabitants of said economies get to enjoy the fruit of such cheap labor. Sometimes the facade of a convenient modern life is built entirely upon an underclass who are intentionally kept in that situation just so they can continue to be exploited. This is of course neither healthy nor sustainable. Of course incentives and promises of upward mobility after some hard work are nice, but one must question themselves: if the local economy will simply cease to function when there are not as many people willing to be exploited, is this model still ethical?

by badpun 4y ago

rayiner 4y ago

giraffe_lady 4y ago
Sorry the who?
- rayiner 4y ago
  Globalists. Adjective form of people who think globalism—free movement of labor and capital across borders—is a good thing: https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-obama-united-nations-20160920-snap-story.html https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-obama-united-nations-20... See also socialism :: socialist and capitalism :: capitalist.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    Ok and so have you ever noticed that quite often when people refer to "the globalists" they have a different group in mind?
    - xyzzyz 4y ago
      What are you even talking about?
      - tptacek 4y ago
        They're referring to the fact that "globalist" is code for "Jewish" among antisemites. Rayiner isn't being antisemitic, and is talking about the word in its original meaning.
        xyzzyz 4y ago
        That's not only extremely silly, it's in fact a pernicious kafkatrap. What if all globalists actually happened to be Jewish? There would have been no way to criticize them for their globalist ideas -- if you did that, you'd immediately be criticized as anti-semite, despite explicitly specifying the set of ideas you don't like and separating them from Jewishness of their proponents, never mentioning it. How lucky we are that there are plenty of non-Jewish globalists, allowing us to criticize globalism.
        tptacek 4y ago
        It's not extremely silly. It's absolutely a code word among antisemites. And, once again: Rayiner isn't using the word that way, so there's no need to deploy ESR-speak against me. Please take it somewhere else. You asked what the subtext of the word is, and I provided it.
    - rayiner 4y ago
      I’ve encountered Bush/Obama types who believe in free movement of labor and capital trying to redefine it as a reference to Jewish people to avoid discussion of the merits of their ideas, if that’s what you mean. Sorry, but globalism is an important phenomenon for discussion, just as capitalism and socialism and communism were in the 20th century. We’re not going to make the obvious label to describe proponents of that ideology taboo based on some completely contrived dog whistle. (Not only contrived but non-sensical given that Israel has very traditional and non-globalist views of what it means to be a nation.)

realce 4y ago

> so that they can be squeezed even more with no recourse IMO it's about labor pressure on actual US citizens. You know that some illegal immigrant could be hired to take a low-wage position over you, therefore you don't have actual labor bloc leverage from withholding your labor from those positions. Prevents unions, prevents wage raises, prevents strikes, prevents all progress in those classes of work. They use these folks against US workers all the time.

spamizbad 4y ago
Interesting that illegal immigration - something that has been a major concern since the 90s - became a major flashpoint after the courts chipped away significantly at labor rights and peak (illegal) immigration was over for 2 decades.
- nradov 4y ago
  The number of illegal aliens present in the country appears to have peaked in 2007. So somewhat later than 2 decades. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/04/13/key-facts-about-the-changing-u-s-unauthorized-immigrant-population/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/04/13/key-facts-a...
daniel-cussen 4y ago
Both are correct. That's why the executive is sabotaging immigration control right now, it's like telling the world come to America. 10x more Cubans, Haitians, Brazillians crossing the border cararraja why? To stop that inflation! No unions, no inflation, no dignity in the workplace, up that unemployment in real life (but not on paper, turn those 9's into 6's).
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  > 10x more Cubans, Haitians, Brazillians crossing the border Do you have a source for this?
  - 4y ago

bashmelek 4y ago

I also worry about all kinds of other exploitation that could result from the immigrants’ legal situation.

TwoFerMaggie 4y ago

This is sadly how a lot of economies function. Something is dangled in front of you (life in the big cities, citizenship in developed countries, etc.), and in order to get that you must agree to be exploited, to different extents. This way inhabitants of said economies get to enjoy the fruit of such cheap labor. Sometimes the facade of a convenient modern life is built entirely upon an underclass who are intentionally kept in that situation just so they can continue to be exploited. This is of course neither healthy nor sustainable. Of course incentives and promises of upward mobility after some hard work are nice, but one must question themselves: if the local economy will simply cease to function when there are not as many people willing to be exploited, is this model still ethical?