84 ms·

H1B rejected – builds unicorn back home

305 points by kumarm 4y ago

going_ham 4y ago
Does it mean it costed the US of potential opportunities? I don't think it made any difference in the US. But it surely helped in his home country. While we are at it, what do you think of current visa issue in the USA? For a long time, I thought it was difficult only to people of Asian countries to migrate to US, but turns out it is equally difficult for any other nations. In the long term, does it make a difference in US if it doesn't bring talent across the world? Of course, there are a lot of talent and there is always someone willing to move to US. So it shouldn't be an issue, should it?
- strikelaserclaw 4y ago
  agree, since India is like 5-10 years behind USA in the tech space, most unicorns in India are just companies that already exist in some form in USA. In India, the execution of a business is the hard part by far, and not the novelty of the idea.
  - manishsharan 4y ago
    >>India is like 5-10 years behind USA in the tech space I don't quite understand this. Do you mean that they are still using Internet Explorer , Java 5 , Windows 7 and Myspace? Please explain.
    - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
      This idiom is referring to the maturity of their tech industry at a high level, not their tooling (though that could be a minor part of it). As an example, a country with paper-only tax filing might be said to be a decade behind a country with easy online e-file. It’s referring to the difference in technical capabilities, capacity, and/or innovation.
      - TomVDB 4y ago
        Putting a check in the mail (or pressing some button on a web form to make it so) is one of the things that comes to mind.
    - 22c 4y ago
      I guess they're trying to say that things like Uber, Amazon, Door Dash, AirBNB, Venmo etc. have a strong foothold in USA, but in India there's a lot of "home grown" alternatives that have beaten the US big tech to adapt to the Indian market. eg. Ola, Flipkart, Paytm, etc.
  - factorialboy 4y ago
    > since India is like 5-10 years behind USA in the tech space, most unicorns in India are just companies that already exist in some form in USA. There are some areas where India has leapfrogged ahead of United States and China. Look at digital payments for instance. Since the 90's we have seen countless examples of how US / western products and services cannot be sold as-is. Like all markets, India is unique. It also happens to be significant in size and companies homegrown and global focus on addressing local needs.
    - ignoramous 4y ago
      > ...since India is like 5-10 years behind USA in the tech space The fact that the tech scene in the West (which is the place where most things happen) is white-male dominated and likely outranks Indians by a factor of 10x (?), which means, as a group, they're likely to accomplish 10x in a lot of metrics. Also, India is roughly 5x / 10x behind the US in tech salaries too (amidst high inflation and weakening currency), resulting in the infamous brain drain to the West (where they then make things happen, if they catch a break).
      - govg 4y ago
        Indian salaries at the top firms ( FANG ) are more like 3x-4x lower now, and rising.
    - zht 4y ago
      sorry in what way has India's digital payments space leapfrogged China's? Do you know what WeChat/Alipay are?
      - govg 4y ago
        Do you know what UPI is?
        zht 4y ago
        yes? in what way is UPI leap frogging the ubiquity of wechat/alipay? p2p, b2b payments go through WeChat. it all goes through WeChat. people selling food on the street, basically all retail stores, e-commerce, goes through some combination of wechat/alipay
  - sbmthakur 4y ago
    How exactly? In certain sectors like payments, India appears to be ahead of the US by certain years thanks to UPI. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface
    - cuteboy19 4y ago
      India was always a little bit ahead of the US in banking, just because of leapfrog effects
  - madmax108 4y ago
    I feel that a reason for this is the cheap human labor available in India, which naturally allows manual-powered processes to scale much more easily in India compared to tech solutions. Also, given the sheer size of the market, even building CRUD apps backed by manual labor for more and more niche use-cases can still garner a lot of users (but revenue per user is still quite low). And note that there is nearly no upside to actually replace the manual component or build state of the art tech solutions because labor costs are relatively small and non-prohibitive Related recent thread on Twitter which discussed some of these ideas: https://twitter.com/championswimmer/status/1533906614738391040 https://twitter.com/championswimmer/status/15339066147383910...
  - aldebran 4y ago
    This is just categorically false. Shopping / delivery / payments are a few categories where startups in India are doing much better.
  - adamsmith143 4y ago
    This is true all over the world. Some of the most valuable companies in Asia or South America are just Uber or Doordash clones for example.
  - deadcoder0904 4y ago
    dude no. most foreign apps won't work in india bcz we don't like to pay for apps. "people come to india for dau, not arpu" ~ kunal shah on the knowledge project [0] tiktok executed perfectly bcz they were optimizing for dau but even flipkart is doing better than amazon here. many apps just won't work bcz they don't understand. see how netflix lost by asking to pay? people don't understand india as much as they think they do so i'd suggest you to watch the video below as it covers actual india from an actual indian who understands it. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl1PIagzgUo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl1PIagzgUo
- kshacker 4y ago
  > Does it mean it costed the US of potential opportunities? I don't think it made any difference in the US. But it surely helped in his home country. Our immigration service hands out N visas a year. You reject one, someone else will pick up that slot. On an average it should not make a difference either for US or the other country unless they are so small their number of visas doubled or something because of this one reject. > In the long term, does it make a difference in US if it doesn't bring talent across the world? Yes it does make a difference, but fixing that has other impacts. In the 90s when the H1 visa regime started (or got big), if someone in Ceylon wanted to write software for an American company, they probably could not do it, at least in the early 90s. They did not have too many other options so US not acquiring an available talent did not impact them. Nowadays such un-acquired talent can do anything - set up a company, work for Russia (or choose any other name who you would rather not have acquire talent, maybe an oil company). However, the fix is not so simple. To acquire all the talent pool would require upping our immigration intake many fold, and that is not going to happen for various reasons (politics, cost, limits to how much immigration can you absorb).
  - davidw 4y ago
    > N visas a year That number is pretty clearly a number pulled out of someone's ass, rather than anything 'scientific'. It's a nice round number that sounded good to someone, but is pretty completely disconnected from reality.
- manuelabeledo 4y ago
  > While we are at it, what do you think of current visa issue in the USA? For a long time, I thought it was difficult only to people of Asian countries to migrate to US, but turns out it is equally difficult for any other nations. I suffered the consequences of the ongoing visa mayhem myself, losing my job in early 2022. Luckily, I received my green card soon afterwards. The US immigration policies, especially for work and talent related visas, are incredibly disconnected from reality. There is still no mechanism in place to curb the abuse by IT consultancy companies, aka "visa mills". Instead, we have brilliant people rejected because of their nationality, not their achievements. Even worse, people with 5, 10, 15 years in the country, high earners and taxpayers, may see themselves kicked out because bureaucracy is just slow. > Of course, there are a lot of talent and there is always someone willing to move to US. So it shouldn't be an issue, should it? It is. At some point, money won't justify the looming feeling of insecurity, and people will be less willing to leave their home countries and come to the US. Even now, immigrating to the US is prohibitively expensive. The talent pool is being reduced to those who can either afford it, or are sponsored by their companies, and this doesn't guarantee that the best and brightest are the ones arriving anyway.
- petilon 4y ago
  > In the long term, does it make a difference in US if it doesn't bring talent across the world? Of course, it does! The only reason the standard of living in the US is higher than anywhere else in the world is because the US makes stuff the rest of the world covets. America is the leading economy in the world today not because it has the most number of people, but because it has the best and the brightest, gathered from around the world. We have the smartest people not because the smartest people of the world were all born here, but because smart people born elsewhere have been immigrating to the United States. Stopping this is not the path to creating jobs. US tech exports in 2018 was $338 billion. Tech is our biggest export by far. Think of the US tech industry as a siphon that sucks in wealth from foreign countries. Would you want to make that siphon bigger or smaller? If you want to make that siphon bigger — and more competitive — how would you do it? By limiting the people that can work in tech to whoever you can find locally, or by bringing in the smartest people from around the world? Keep in mind that the money this siphon brings in is not only benefiting tech workers and tech shareholders. When the money is spent it turns the wheels of our economy, which leads to prosperity for all Americans, not just the few that work in tech. Think of the tech industry as a way to suck money from foreign countries and pump it into the economy of our country. The beneficiaries include all Americans, including those who work in restaurants, retail, healthcare, insurance, education, housing, transportation, entertainment and so on. Limiting tech industry to whoever companies can find locally will hurt its global competitiveness. Such a move will not just hurt the few would-be tech immigrants that are prevented from immigrating, but American prosperity in general.
  - 62951413 4y ago
    Shouldn't the government do more to promote equality? The current approach makes possible to arbitrage at scale when the government can * bring in a large number of already educated (for free or _much_ cheaper) foreigners * often from an upper middle class background in their home countries * progressively lower the bar on the secondary education for Americans to jeopardize their chances of competing with foreigners for STEM majors and eventually jobs in high-tech. Which hits the disappearing [lower] middle class the hardest. * keep college education significantly more expensive than it is for the very same foreigners
- topspin 4y ago
  > But it surely helped in his home country. Likely. The absorption of young, motivated people by the US is a major loss for their origin nations. Why this never seems to be a concern for anyone involved is the proverbial gorilla in the room.
  - yourapostasy 4y ago
    > Why this never seems to be a concern for anyone involved is the proverbial gorilla in the room. Young, motivated, smart, driven, creative, innovative, persistent…hmm, all the right ingredients to successfully challenge the existing status quo in many nations. If you were part of the elite in those nations, what’s not to love about the current setup where the US not only absorbs the best and brightest who have a shot at upending your sinecure but even if those best of the best return to your nation, they are usually turned towards industrial rather than sociopolitical leadership pursuits that would bring “disruptive innovation” to your sphere?
paulgb 4y ago
Since it’s not mentioned in the tweet, the unicorn in question is Snapdeal. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapdeal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapdeal
- erichocean 4y ago
  An enormous loss for America, no doubt.
  - keepquestioning 4y ago
    This must be sarcastic because this seems like Amazon.
    - xwdv 4y ago
      It’s not a public company so there’s no reason to care about this. You cannot invest in it. You cannot benefit from it. You can merely use it, but as you said, it’s just a shittier version of Amazon, so why bother?
    - erichocean 4y ago
      Snapdeal revenue (not profit, just top-line revenue) in 2021 (after 11 years in business): $64 million USD Is that Amazon-like? Amazon was founded in 1994 and AWS was created in 2006, 12 years later. Did Snapdeal launch their own Indian AWS competitor in 2022? How's their revenue growth holding up compared to Amazon? For comparison, my own 4 person e-commerce startup had ~$6.4 million in revenue in 2021 with gross margins around 30%. Of course, we've only been in business since 2018, not 2010 like Snapdeal. If we take Softbank money (2014, Snapdeal), will we also be an Amazon-like "unicorn" in seven years with mediocre revenue?
      - keepquestioning 4y ago
        Are you converting currency?
        4y ago
yardie 4y ago
Note this was in 2007, during the height of the H1B body shop scams. The USCIS visa system was overwhelmed by companies like Infosys and Tata just submitting 1000s of applications for clearly underqualified, yet cheap candidates for jobs that didn't exist. This writer probably got their visa rejected over a less qualified candidate because of the quota limits for H1b.
- kioleanu 4y ago
- aldebran 4y ago
  This is unfortunately still the case. H1B lottery is still a thing. I had to lose a team member and the person saw a similar email in their inbox. Sucks!
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > This is unfortunately still the case. H1B lottery is still a thing. I had to lose a team member and the person saw a similar email in their inbox. Sucks! The lottery is still a thing, but I vaguely recall that a few years ago they slapped down some of the foreign outsourcing companies that were abusing the system. I'm I remembering correctly?
    - outworlder 4y ago
      They did. Also I believe multiple, concurrent applications are not being allowed.
  - didip 4y ago
    The lottery is still a thing but not for India and China.
    - sauravjain 4y ago
      wdym by this? it most definitely is still a lottery
aleem 4y ago
Three worst addictions: Heroine, Carbohydrates and a monthly salary - Nassim Taleb It's more common for people who are in-between jobs to take things that would be otherwise compromise their monthly salary income. It's less common for someone to quit a high paying job and take on a risky endeavour. Relatedly, the Tarzan strategy is another way to mitigate this risk (side projects or finding your next gig before just quitting the current), etc. Called Tarzan because you hang on to the next rope before letting go of the current one.
- manuelabeledo 4y ago
  > Three worst addictions: Heroine, Carbohydrates and a monthly salary - Nassim Taleb Nassim Taleb is a bit of a wack. This sentence doesn't make sense. I really hope it was taken out of context, because otherwise, there's absolutely no value to it other than glorifying risk for the sake of it. May as well be talking about gambling money away.
  - geodel 4y ago
    Huh, just a couple of centuries back maybe 90% of world population was self employed. It was not the greatest risk but simply a way of life.
    - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
      A couple of centuries back, wasn't most of the world population subsistence farming in conditions broadly described as serfdom?
      - trhway 4y ago
        yes, describing the serfdom as "self-employment" reminds how some in US describe the slaves brought here back then as "immigrants" or "labor migrants".
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      That's because it wasn't risky to get a job as a helper to a working professional, learn their trade while doing the worst/easiest part of the work, transition to doing skilled work while having your helpers do the crapwork and the professional did inspection and finishing, then either taking over the shop from the professional, partnering with the professional, or opening your own shop with your already established customers. So completely unrelated to the modern world.
unknownaccount 4y ago
I wouldnt want this unprofessional person working for me. Look at how he lazily half-censored the names of his co-workers at Microsoft that sent/cc the email, in such a way that you can easily read it.
geodel 4y ago
I guess happy ending for every one. US got enough H1Bs that's why rejected excess applications. Indian govt get to crow about thriving startup ecosystem. And Indians got some cheap deals on fashion and other household goods. As a result of all this, this guy got to be billionaire or some such.
dxbydt 4y ago
In the early 1990s when I came here, the prevailing wisdom was that its categorically better to immigrate to the US from India if you get a chance. India was too far back in the tech space, too much bureaucracy, corruption, red-tape etc etc... In the 2020s, the consensus is quite mixed. A lot of people I personally worked with, who successfully got their visas and green cards, have given it all up and gone straight back to India because that's where the action is. It was quite baffling to me because it takes a lot of work to get these documents. But after a few trips to India, I must say it makes a lot of sense. The startup funding situation, tech jobs hiring scenario, cost of living, telecom, healthcare, no prevalence of gun culture...every aspect is much better in India currently than the US. If you have high 6 low 7 figure USD saved up, and not too deeply tied to the US, you should consider moving back if you want to tap into a potential windfall. That said, if you only have 5 figure USD, coming to the US is the better option if you can swing it. If you're already here on a visa, stay frugal & grow that nest egg. Going back with a 5 figure sum is quite risky unless you have some solid contacts in the startup space or are ok with the Indian job scene. Interviews over there are insanely competitive. 500+ LC. Kids just stay at home grinding LC all day. There are dedicated youtube channels in Hindi & other regional lang telling you how to dynamic program, backtrack, div & conquer, two pointer....its a whole different scene.
- sremani 4y ago
  People are making an error based on the past 20 years of debt binge and capital flooding that took over the world. When the FDI dries up, India is a very weird place. The energy costs will put a number in Asia and Europe in the next decade with dramatic food security challenges. Overall, at macro level, US beats India, but are there positive offshoots in some niches.. perhaps!
  - naravara 4y ago
    The US may beat India in macro level economic factors for quite a while to come, but for a more senior professional with a marketable resume I think it's not too hard to find the positive niches. Honestly the main thing that keeps me from moving back is quality of life concerns with traffic, air quality, and noise pollution.
paxys 4y ago
US immigration policies for Indian and Chinese nationals has been a blessing for their home grown tech ecosystem. There is no path to a green card or citizenship for anyone who immigrated in the last ~15 years, and the top 5% talent that used to come over by default is now working at or founding companies at home instead. This is directly correlated to the number of tech unicorns in these countries growing exponentially in the same time period (0 in India before 2010, 100+ in 2022).
- dixie_land 4y ago
  Thanks to "consulting" companies' abuse of H1B. We should've just have a stack ranking of H1B candidates, based on income (and severe penalties for regression in comp, so you can't just do it for the visa). This would immediately break companies like Infosys that simply spams the lottery system with bogus applications.
  - paxys 4y ago
    The current system is in place only because all of the US companies that benefit from cheap labor provided by the likes of Infosys have lobbied for it.
    - manuelabeledo 4y ago
      I doubt it is cheaper at all. H-1B applications must pass the prevailing wage test, i.e. applicants cannot earn less than the prevailing wage for their position at the chosen employment location. Companies like Tata, Infosys, WiPro, etc. need to maintain a part of their workforce in the US for certain projects anyway, so they slave away these applicants with draconian contracts. It's not that they pay them significantly less than any other, but the fact that they can guarantee a 3 to 5 year headcount for their larger US based projects, with a larger talent pool to choose from, if needed.
      - geebee 4y ago
        A shortage at a certain wage level probably indicates that the prevailing wage is too low. So targeted visa programs designed to provide more workers at the prevailing wage can suppress wage growth, which, over time, really is no different from a reduction in wages. This is why a lot of people, like me, favor high levels of general immigration but don't support targeted visas like the H1B. I'm especially opposed to visas that are controlled by the employer and restrict the personal and economic freedom and mobility of immigrant workers in the US. If employers are lobbying for visas that allow someone to work in the US only on the condition that they remain in a specific role at a specific company at a specific salary, that should raise all kinds of red flags. You're allowed to be a software developer in the valley, but you'll be deported if you try to open a small business or enter a different profession or even change employers without new "sponsorship"? I find it remarkable that so many people don't see the egregious problem here.
deleted 4y ago
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diogenescynic 4y ago
Simple solution is to give visas to the applicants with the highest salaries instead of just giving these out at random.
- Something1234 4y ago
  Wouldn't that be unfair to any potential start ups that needed an H1B for some complex subject matter?
  - diogenescynic 4y ago
    If your startup is already H-1B dependent, then I don't feel super bad. Raise more and find local talent at the market rate or go out of business--but startups aren't entitled to a pool of cheap, foreign labor via H-1Bs.
- hibikir 4y ago
  A variety of other non-software jobs also rely on H-1Bs: See, for instance, lab technicians. A change to highest salaries, while probably way better for the software industry, and applicants in general, would wipe out other sectors. The system definitely needs fixing, but simple solutions often have all kinds of negative side effects.
  - diogenescynic 4y ago
    The simple solution is to pay them more if they are so vital. Their value is directly related to their pay. The issue often isn't that talent can't be found... it's that talent can't be found at the price the corporation wants to pay. We need to encourage corporations to pay more which should correspond to the most essential positions needed, not just find the cheapest worker.
- slt2021 4y ago
  US will lose most nurses and other non-tech, but essential talent
zb1plus 4y ago
[flagged]
- avasylev 4y ago
  Curious if you have example of racist US visa/immigration policy? There's a lot deserved criticism of current system, but can't think of anything specifically racist.
  - giobox 4y ago
    Green card quotas are based entirely on your country of birth. For example, a UK citizen can obtain a green card far, far faster than an Indian citizen. If a UK citizen and Indian citizen on an H1B visa start the Green Card process at the same time, the UK citizen will obtain permanent residency typically in 9-18 months. For the Indian applicant, who applied on same day with same visa and process, it will likely be over 10 years before they have security of permanent residence. Where you were born is built into the foundations of how the USA allocates Green Cards to many visa holders, regardless of who you are, how much you contribute to the USA or earn etc etc. There are attempts to fix this too: > https://www.fwd.us/news/per-country-cap-reform-priority-bill-spotlight/ https://www.fwd.us/news/per-country-cap-reform-priority-bill...
    - zb1plus 4y ago
      Exactly, H1B visas should be entirely blind to country of origin since to do otherwise would amount to de facto racism due to the racial demographics of many countries.
    - alibarber 4y ago
      The UK is an interesting example given that it’s, effectively, the only country in Europe that cannot take part in the annual GC lottery. And even then, Northern Ireland is exempt from that. This has got something to do with the amount of British people who are already in the US, and I expect in the case of your example, that might also have something to do with the number of Indian H1B holders.
    - 4y ago
Temporary_31337 4y ago
Can anyone point me to how much the guy had actually earned? I feel that if he’d stayed in the US and earned Microsoft stock options he’d be much better off financially
- xtreme 4y ago
  There is more to life than chasing TC.
- coding123 4y ago
  Is that all that matters to people these days?
  - short_sells_poo 4y ago
    No but if we want to quantify whether a decision was a net win or not, a valid approach is to express it in monetary terms. There are other approaches, some more objective some less, but money is simple. E.g. if I worked at MS and over 10 years built a capital of $1mln, vs having worked in India and built a capital of $300k, there may be other considerations, but in purely monetary terms the MS approach would’ve been much better. Further compound interest will make the $1mln wealth run away much faster than $300k.
    - coding123 4y ago
      Except that $300k in India gets you farther than $1M in the US.
- Ar-Curunir 4y ago
  Err, even disregarding the fact that there's more to life than the money you earn, staying in the US wasn't even an option for him.
- techenthusiast1 4y ago
  The latest news I can find shows the company he founded was planning to IPO at a valuation of $2.5billion. If one were to assume the founder owns 10% of the company (reasonable at IPO based on what I know), he would have made about $250 million in equity. [https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/snapdeal-plans-350-400-million-ipo-eyes-valuation-of-up-to-2-5-billion-121090301040_1.html https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/snapdeal...] This is in addition to about $650k annual salary in India. [https://www.zeebiz.com/companies/news-snapdeal-co-founders-kunal-bahl-rohit-bansal-to-take-home-rs-5-crore-each-in-salary-in-2021-174197 https://www.zeebiz.com/companies/news-snapdeal-co-founders-k...] This would be pretty much impossible even with a very successful career at Microsoft, short of becoming an SVP or the CEO.
noufalibrahim 4y ago
This is definitely an inspiring story but isn't it an isolated data point? On average, the US has a lot of things going for it for a young software professional if he or she can navigate the immigration maze and is reasonably lucky. Might not be for everyone but for the average person, getting a cushy job in a large company might be better for stability and long term satisfaction that risking it on an attempt to create a unicorn (which is rarely successful).
- abc_lisper 4y ago
  That's the thing with all the interesting stories though. I'm in no way criticizing you, just thought about this for a while. If we let ourselves guided by interesting(and thus rare) stories, we are obviously setting ourselves for failure, because that's not playing the game that needs to be played.
- throw0821374 4y ago
  .
  - abc_lisper 4y ago
    They also make choices and compromises people in US don't. Every interaction in India is loaded with suspicion. Dishonesty is the baseline. Disrespect is the norm. Xenophobia is common. Insecurity is the guiding North Star. Entitlement is prevalent. Hard work is looked down. Rules are for fools and loyalty (however earned/enforced) is everything. I love my country, but those are the facts.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- anukin 4y ago
  Its an extremely isolated data point. He was born rich. Had the money and privilege to do coaching to go to an elite Indian engineering college. Went to US from there. When he came back his buddies from college where VCs. They funded him. His startup collapsed terribly even after so much of luck, privilege and funding. So now he gives outdated gyaan(wisdom) in Twitter.
soniman 4y ago
So brain drain is bad (when it happens to Russia) but good (when the US does it to India)? India is a desperately poor country that needs Indian entrepreneurs. It's ridiculous to frame this as a loss to the US. It is a loss to the world if the desperately poor in India are never lifted out of poverty by their own best and brightest. The US should encourage them to stay in India.
game_the0ry 4y ago
Arguably, Asian industry (India specifically), has much more room to grow - the west is is where things happened, Asia is where things are happening. But East and South Asians immigration will continue. Being "westernized" (usually western education and green card) is valuable as a source of social prestige - having a US masters degree makes you attractive in the marriage market and in social circles.[1] [1] I am South Asian.
yosito 4y ago
As an American from an immigrant family, I think the US is really losing here. We should be giving visas out liberally to any skilled professional who wants one. Immigration is the only thing that ever truly made the US stand out. On the other hand, as a global citizen with multiple passports who hasn't lived in the US for some time, maybe this is a good thing for the rest of the world. Spreading innovation out a bit and allowing other countries to thrive. Growing up in an immigrant family, I always had a sense of diversity being America's strength. But the last decade or so the US seems to have lost sight of the value of diversity. Not completely, but in many ways, partially thanks to US hegemony and the export of the English language, Europe is currently the cultural melting pot I idealized the US as growing up. I think the world would truly be a more peaceful and thriving place if every country were more culturally integrated. Anyway, I'm rambling now... </soapbox>
- hunterb123 4y ago
  The US allows more immigrants than any other country. What exactly is the criticism?
  - nine_zeros 4y ago
    > The US allows more immigrants than any other country. What exactly is the criticism? The system is unbelievably cruel. People die (or see their loved ones die) before they get greencards. It is not a numbers game. If you can attract the best, you need to let them thrive instead of enslaving them.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - outside1234 4y ago
      Are you referring to the 7% cap on the number of people that can get a green card from any one country in a calendar year?
      - 4y ago
throwawsy 4y ago
Most of the top talented engineers i met at meetups are commited to build companies in India. Defence, Infra, Fintech, Medical, Space and Drug sectors are the ones most popular. we are going see future unicorns from these sectors.
- dudul 4y ago
  How do you identify a "top talented engineer" at a meet up? It could be a useful trick for interview.
Traubenfuchs 4y ago
Over 99.99% of rejected H1B applicants do not build unicorns back home. What is the point here? Let them all in in case one of them makes a unicorn? This is rock people thinking on the level of "every aborted baby could have become the next Mozart".
- spoonjim 4y ago
  Maybe shut down the southern border and instead admit more H1Bs? And use some judgment instead of a lottery. Someone who's been a manager at Microsoft is obviously a better bet than a TCS bodyshopper.
  - 29athrowaway 4y ago
    Unless you come up with a new innovation like self-installing drywalls and roofs, self-picking fruits, or self-slaughtering chickens, shutting down the southern border seems like a really counterproductive idea. Perhaps in a world where people did not need to live under a roof, and did not need to consume fruit or chickens, that idea would be great. Most of the money people in unskilled occupations make goes into purchasing essential stuff like food, which pays sales tax and provides income for corporations.
    - spoonjim 4y ago
      Maybe a strawberry should cost 50 cents
- manuelabeledo 4y ago
  > What is the point here? Let them all in in case one of them makes a unicorn? The point is that if a talented engineer has to go back home because becoming a permanent resident takes over ten years, and the H-1B system is a literal gamble, then the US immigration policy has failed. > This is rock people thinking on the level of "every aborted baby could have become the next Mozart". The difference being that we know that visa holders are already talented, and maybe they wouldn't build the next unicorn, but their work provides a net benefit to the economy. If anything, it would be overall better for the economy to kick out all the underperformers, regardless of their nationality, and let H-1B holders in.
immigrantheart 4y ago
This is amazing! I think a lot of immigrants should really use their talents back home, building their own country. It will be good for everyone, for the world as well.
martin1975 4y ago
Don't fret. You're probably better off in the nicely developed parts in India as an engineer than anywhere in the USA.
xiaodai 4y ago
it's a bit sad to lose talent like this. Wonder how we can attract talents like this to Australia? I guess the market isn't big enough but selling software is easily an international business so in Aus we have some powerhouse software companiest too like Atlassian and Canva
pid_0 4y ago
rubyist5eva 4y ago
Tbh, this sounds like a good thing to me. Snapdeal is an amazon competitor that likely would not have made it in America. Now Snapdeal gets to actually contribute to the economic growth of India while they are going through their own "industrial revolution" of sorts. Brain drain is devastating for the developing world. Abolishing H1B completely would be a net positive for the world in my opinion.
edmcnulty101 4y ago
This is great news! Turn other countries into a desirable place to be! The more this happens the more people will just stay and work in other countries because US and Europe don't have anything to offer.
- manuelabeledo 4y ago
  > The more this happens the more people will just stay and work in other countries because US and Europe don't have anything to offer. The point here is that the US is missing on talent, not that other countries would benefit from it. It's a failure of the US immigration policy to the economy.
veaz 4y ago
renewiltord 4y ago
Immigrants take note of what your fellow software engineers are saying here. If you join a union and make it strong, that's what it will look like. Then they will kick you out once you help it be strong. Watch out for tech unions.
Qem 4y ago
If US dealed with immigration in the 1930s-1940s like it's done today, the Manhattan project probably would never had happened and Hitler would get the A-bomb first. Is omnious when a nation that owes so much to migrants becomes hostile to them.

305 points by kumarm 4y ago

Does it mean it costed the US of potential opportunities? I don't think it made any difference in the US. But it surely helped in his home country. While we are at it, what do you think of current visa issue in the USA? For a long time, I thought it was difficult only to people of Asian countries to migrate to US, but turns out it is equally difficult for any other nations. In the long term, does it make a difference in US if it doesn't bring talent across the world? Of course, there are a lot of talent and there is always someone willing to move to US. So it shouldn't be an issue, should it?

strikelaserclaw 4y ago
agree, since India is like 5-10 years behind USA in the tech space, most unicorns in India are just companies that already exist in some form in USA. In India, the execution of a business is the hard part by far, and not the novelty of the idea.
- manishsharan 4y ago
  >>India is like 5-10 years behind USA in the tech space I don't quite understand this. Do you mean that they are still using Internet Explorer , Java 5 , Windows 7 and Myspace? Please explain.
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    This idiom is referring to the maturity of their tech industry at a high level, not their tooling (though that could be a minor part of it). As an example, a country with paper-only tax filing might be said to be a decade behind a country with easy online e-file. It’s referring to the difference in technical capabilities, capacity, and/or innovation.
    - TomVDB 4y ago
      Putting a check in the mail (or pressing some button on a web form to make it so) is one of the things that comes to mind.
  - 22c 4y ago
    I guess they're trying to say that things like Uber, Amazon, Door Dash, AirBNB, Venmo etc. have a strong foothold in USA, but in India there's a lot of "home grown" alternatives that have beaten the US big tech to adapt to the Indian market. eg. Ola, Flipkart, Paytm, etc.
- factorialboy 4y ago
  > since India is like 5-10 years behind USA in the tech space, most unicorns in India are just companies that already exist in some form in USA. There are some areas where India has leapfrogged ahead of United States and China. Look at digital payments for instance. Since the 90's we have seen countless examples of how US / western products and services cannot be sold as-is. Like all markets, India is unique. It also happens to be significant in size and companies homegrown and global focus on addressing local needs.
  - ignoramous 4y ago
    > ...since India is like 5-10 years behind USA in the tech space The fact that the tech scene in the West (which is the place where most things happen) is white-male dominated and likely outranks Indians by a factor of 10x (?), which means, as a group, they're likely to accomplish 10x in a lot of metrics. Also, India is roughly 5x / 10x behind the US in tech salaries too (amidst high inflation and weakening currency), resulting in the infamous brain drain to the West (where they then make things happen, if they catch a break).
    - govg 4y ago
      Indian salaries at the top firms ( FANG ) are more like 3x-4x lower now, and rising.
  - zht 4y ago
    sorry in what way has India's digital payments space leapfrogged China's? Do you know what WeChat/Alipay are?
    - govg 4y ago
      Do you know what UPI is?
      - zht 4y ago
        yes? in what way is UPI leap frogging the ubiquity of wechat/alipay? p2p, b2b payments go through WeChat. it all goes through WeChat. people selling food on the street, basically all retail stores, e-commerce, goes through some combination of wechat/alipay
- sbmthakur 4y ago
  How exactly? In certain sectors like payments, India appears to be ahead of the US by certain years thanks to UPI. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface
  - cuteboy19 4y ago
    India was always a little bit ahead of the US in banking, just because of leapfrog effects
- madmax108 4y ago
  I feel that a reason for this is the cheap human labor available in India, which naturally allows manual-powered processes to scale much more easily in India compared to tech solutions. Also, given the sheer size of the market, even building CRUD apps backed by manual labor for more and more niche use-cases can still garner a lot of users (but revenue per user is still quite low). And note that there is nearly no upside to actually replace the manual component or build state of the art tech solutions because labor costs are relatively small and non-prohibitive Related recent thread on Twitter which discussed some of these ideas: https://twitter.com/championswimmer/status/1533906614738391040 https://twitter.com/championswimmer/status/15339066147383910...
- aldebran 4y ago
  This is just categorically false. Shopping / delivery / payments are a few categories where startups in India are doing much better.
- adamsmith143 4y ago
  This is true all over the world. Some of the most valuable companies in Asia or South America are just Uber or Doordash clones for example.
- deadcoder0904 4y ago
  dude no. most foreign apps won't work in india bcz we don't like to pay for apps. "people come to india for dau, not arpu" ~ kunal shah on the knowledge project [0] tiktok executed perfectly bcz they were optimizing for dau but even flipkart is doing better than amazon here. many apps just won't work bcz they don't understand. see how netflix lost by asking to pay? people don't understand india as much as they think they do so i'd suggest you to watch the video below as it covers actual india from an actual indian who understands it. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl1PIagzgUo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl1PIagzgUo
kshacker 4y ago
> Does it mean it costed the US of potential opportunities? I don't think it made any difference in the US. But it surely helped in his home country. Our immigration service hands out N visas a year. You reject one, someone else will pick up that slot. On an average it should not make a difference either for US or the other country unless they are so small their number of visas doubled or something because of this one reject. > In the long term, does it make a difference in US if it doesn't bring talent across the world? Yes it does make a difference, but fixing that has other impacts. In the 90s when the H1 visa regime started (or got big), if someone in Ceylon wanted to write software for an American company, they probably could not do it, at least in the early 90s. They did not have too many other options so US not acquiring an available talent did not impact them. Nowadays such un-acquired talent can do anything - set up a company, work for Russia (or choose any other name who you would rather not have acquire talent, maybe an oil company). However, the fix is not so simple. To acquire all the talent pool would require upping our immigration intake many fold, and that is not going to happen for various reasons (politics, cost, limits to how much immigration can you absorb).
- davidw 4y ago
  > N visas a year That number is pretty clearly a number pulled out of someone's ass, rather than anything 'scientific'. It's a nice round number that sounded good to someone, but is pretty completely disconnected from reality.
manuelabeledo 4y ago
> While we are at it, what do you think of current visa issue in the USA? For a long time, I thought it was difficult only to people of Asian countries to migrate to US, but turns out it is equally difficult for any other nations. I suffered the consequences of the ongoing visa mayhem myself, losing my job in early 2022. Luckily, I received my green card soon afterwards. The US immigration policies, especially for work and talent related visas, are incredibly disconnected from reality. There is still no mechanism in place to curb the abuse by IT consultancy companies, aka "visa mills". Instead, we have brilliant people rejected because of their nationality, not their achievements. Even worse, people with 5, 10, 15 years in the country, high earners and taxpayers, may see themselves kicked out because bureaucracy is just slow. > Of course, there are a lot of talent and there is always someone willing to move to US. So it shouldn't be an issue, should it? It is. At some point, money won't justify the looming feeling of insecurity, and people will be less willing to leave their home countries and come to the US. Even now, immigrating to the US is prohibitively expensive. The talent pool is being reduced to those who can either afford it, or are sponsored by their companies, and this doesn't guarantee that the best and brightest are the ones arriving anyway.
petilon 4y ago
> In the long term, does it make a difference in US if it doesn't bring talent across the world? Of course, it does! The only reason the standard of living in the US is higher than anywhere else in the world is because the US makes stuff the rest of the world covets. America is the leading economy in the world today not because it has the most number of people, but because it has the best and the brightest, gathered from around the world. We have the smartest people not because the smartest people of the world were all born here, but because smart people born elsewhere have been immigrating to the United States. Stopping this is not the path to creating jobs. US tech exports in 2018 was $338 billion. Tech is our biggest export by far. Think of the US tech industry as a siphon that sucks in wealth from foreign countries. Would you want to make that siphon bigger or smaller? If you want to make that siphon bigger — and more competitive — how would you do it? By limiting the people that can work in tech to whoever you can find locally, or by bringing in the smartest people from around the world? Keep in mind that the money this siphon brings in is not only benefiting tech workers and tech shareholders. When the money is spent it turns the wheels of our economy, which leads to prosperity for all Americans, not just the few that work in tech. Think of the tech industry as a way to suck money from foreign countries and pump it into the economy of our country. The beneficiaries include all Americans, including those who work in restaurants, retail, healthcare, insurance, education, housing, transportation, entertainment and so on. Limiting tech industry to whoever companies can find locally will hurt its global competitiveness. Such a move will not just hurt the few would-be tech immigrants that are prevented from immigrating, but American prosperity in general.
- 62951413 4y ago
  Shouldn't the government do more to promote equality? The current approach makes possible to arbitrage at scale when the government can * bring in a large number of already educated (for free or _much_ cheaper) foreigners * often from an upper middle class background in their home countries * progressively lower the bar on the secondary education for Americans to jeopardize their chances of competing with foreigners for STEM majors and eventually jobs in high-tech. Which hits the disappearing [lower] middle class the hardest. * keep college education significantly more expensive than it is for the very same foreigners
topspin 4y ago
> But it surely helped in his home country. Likely. The absorption of young, motivated people by the US is a major loss for their origin nations. Why this never seems to be a concern for anyone involved is the proverbial gorilla in the room.
- yourapostasy 4y ago
  > Why this never seems to be a concern for anyone involved is the proverbial gorilla in the room. Young, motivated, smart, driven, creative, innovative, persistent…hmm, all the right ingredients to successfully challenge the existing status quo in many nations. If you were part of the elite in those nations, what’s not to love about the current setup where the US not only absorbs the best and brightest who have a shot at upending your sinecure but even if those best of the best return to your nation, they are usually turned towards industrial rather than sociopolitical leadership pursuits that would bring “disruptive innovation” to your sphere?

paulgb 4y ago

Since it’s not mentioned in the tweet, the unicorn in question is Snapdeal. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapdeal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapdeal

erichocean 4y ago
An enormous loss for America, no doubt.
- keepquestioning 4y ago
  This must be sarcastic because this seems like Amazon.
  - xwdv 4y ago
    It’s not a public company so there’s no reason to care about this. You cannot invest in it. You cannot benefit from it. You can merely use it, but as you said, it’s just a shittier version of Amazon, so why bother?
  - erichocean 4y ago
    Snapdeal revenue (not profit, just top-line revenue) in 2021 (after 11 years in business): $64 million USD Is that Amazon-like? Amazon was founded in 1994 and AWS was created in 2006, 12 years later. Did Snapdeal launch their own Indian AWS competitor in 2022? How's their revenue growth holding up compared to Amazon? For comparison, my own 4 person e-commerce startup had ~$6.4 million in revenue in 2021 with gross margins around 30%. Of course, we've only been in business since 2018, not 2010 like Snapdeal. If we take Softbank money (2014, Snapdeal), will we also be an Amazon-like "unicorn" in seven years with mediocre revenue?
    - keepquestioning 4y ago
      Are you converting currency?
      - 4y ago

yardie 4y ago

Note this was in 2007, during the height of the H1B body shop scams. The USCIS visa system was overwhelmed by companies like Infosys and Tata just submitting 1000s of applications for clearly underqualified, yet cheap candidates for jobs that didn't exist. This writer probably got their visa rejected over a less qualified candidate because of the quota limits for H1b.

kioleanu 4y ago
aldebran 4y ago
This is unfortunately still the case. H1B lottery is still a thing. I had to lose a team member and the person saw a similar email in their inbox. Sucks!
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > This is unfortunately still the case. H1B lottery is still a thing. I had to lose a team member and the person saw a similar email in their inbox. Sucks! The lottery is still a thing, but I vaguely recall that a few years ago they slapped down some of the foreign outsourcing companies that were abusing the system. I'm I remembering correctly?
  - outworlder 4y ago
    They did. Also I believe multiple, concurrent applications are not being allowed.
- didip 4y ago
  The lottery is still a thing but not for India and China.
  - sauravjain 4y ago
    wdym by this? it most definitely is still a lottery

aleem 4y ago

Three worst addictions: Heroine, Carbohydrates and a monthly salary - Nassim Taleb It's more common for people who are in-between jobs to take things that would be otherwise compromise their monthly salary income. It's less common for someone to quit a high paying job and take on a risky endeavour. Relatedly, the Tarzan strategy is another way to mitigate this risk (side projects or finding your next gig before just quitting the current), etc. Called Tarzan because you hang on to the next rope before letting go of the current one.

manuelabeledo 4y ago
> Three worst addictions: Heroine, Carbohydrates and a monthly salary - Nassim Taleb Nassim Taleb is a bit of a wack. This sentence doesn't make sense. I really hope it was taken out of context, because otherwise, there's absolutely no value to it other than glorifying risk for the sake of it. May as well be talking about gambling money away.
- geodel 4y ago
  Huh, just a couple of centuries back maybe 90% of world population was self employed. It was not the greatest risk but simply a way of life.
  - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
    A couple of centuries back, wasn't most of the world population subsistence farming in conditions broadly described as serfdom?
    - trhway 4y ago
      yes, describing the serfdom as "self-employment" reminds how some in US describe the slaves brought here back then as "immigrants" or "labor migrants".
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    That's because it wasn't risky to get a job as a helper to a working professional, learn their trade while doing the worst/easiest part of the work, transition to doing skilled work while having your helpers do the crapwork and the professional did inspection and finishing, then either taking over the shop from the professional, partnering with the professional, or opening your own shop with your already established customers. So completely unrelated to the modern world.

unknownaccount 4y ago

I wouldnt want this unprofessional person working for me. Look at how he lazily half-censored the names of his co-workers at Microsoft that sent/cc the email, in such a way that you can easily read it.

geodel 4y ago

I guess happy ending for every one. US got enough H1Bs that's why rejected excess applications. Indian govt get to crow about thriving startup ecosystem. And Indians got some cheap deals on fashion and other household goods. As a result of all this, this guy got to be billionaire or some such.

dxbydt 4y ago

In the early 1990s when I came here, the prevailing wisdom was that its categorically better to immigrate to the US from India if you get a chance. India was too far back in the tech space, too much bureaucracy, corruption, red-tape etc etc... In the 2020s, the consensus is quite mixed. A lot of people I personally worked with, who successfully got their visas and green cards, have given it all up and gone straight back to India because that's where the action is. It was quite baffling to me because it takes a lot of work to get these documents. But after a few trips to India, I must say it makes a lot of sense. The startup funding situation, tech jobs hiring scenario, cost of living, telecom, healthcare, no prevalence of gun culture...every aspect is much better in India currently than the US. If you have high 6 low 7 figure USD saved up, and not too deeply tied to the US, you should consider moving back if you want to tap into a potential windfall. That said, if you only have 5 figure USD, coming to the US is the better option if you can swing it. If you're already here on a visa, stay frugal & grow that nest egg. Going back with a 5 figure sum is quite risky unless you have some solid contacts in the startup space or are ok with the Indian job scene. Interviews over there are insanely competitive. 500+ LC. Kids just stay at home grinding LC all day. There are dedicated youtube channels in Hindi & other regional lang telling you how to dynamic program, backtrack, div & conquer, two pointer....its a whole different scene.

sremani 4y ago
People are making an error based on the past 20 years of debt binge and capital flooding that took over the world. When the FDI dries up, India is a very weird place. The energy costs will put a number in Asia and Europe in the next decade with dramatic food security challenges. Overall, at macro level, US beats India, but are there positive offshoots in some niches.. perhaps!
- naravara 4y ago
  The US may beat India in macro level economic factors for quite a while to come, but for a more senior professional with a marketable resume I think it's not too hard to find the positive niches. Honestly the main thing that keeps me from moving back is quality of life concerns with traffic, air quality, and noise pollution.

paxys 4y ago

US immigration policies for Indian and Chinese nationals has been a blessing for their home grown tech ecosystem. There is no path to a green card or citizenship for anyone who immigrated in the last ~15 years, and the top 5% talent that used to come over by default is now working at or founding companies at home instead. This is directly correlated to the number of tech unicorns in these countries growing exponentially in the same time period (0 in India before 2010, 100+ in 2022).

dixie_land 4y ago
Thanks to "consulting" companies' abuse of H1B. We should've just have a stack ranking of H1B candidates, based on income (and severe penalties for regression in comp, so you can't just do it for the visa). This would immediately break companies like Infosys that simply spams the lottery system with bogus applications.
- paxys 4y ago
  The current system is in place only because all of the US companies that benefit from cheap labor provided by the likes of Infosys have lobbied for it.
  - manuelabeledo 4y ago
    I doubt it is cheaper at all. H-1B applications must pass the prevailing wage test, i.e. applicants cannot earn less than the prevailing wage for their position at the chosen employment location. Companies like Tata, Infosys, WiPro, etc. need to maintain a part of their workforce in the US for certain projects anyway, so they slave away these applicants with draconian contracts. It's not that they pay them significantly less than any other, but the fact that they can guarantee a 3 to 5 year headcount for their larger US based projects, with a larger talent pool to choose from, if needed.
    - geebee 4y ago
      A shortage at a certain wage level probably indicates that the prevailing wage is too low. So targeted visa programs designed to provide more workers at the prevailing wage can suppress wage growth, which, over time, really is no different from a reduction in wages. This is why a lot of people, like me, favor high levels of general immigration but don't support targeted visas like the H1B. I'm especially opposed to visas that are controlled by the employer and restrict the personal and economic freedom and mobility of immigrant workers in the US. If employers are lobbying for visas that allow someone to work in the US only on the condition that they remain in a specific role at a specific company at a specific salary, that should raise all kinds of red flags. You're allowed to be a software developer in the valley, but you'll be deported if you try to open a small business or enter a different profession or even change employers without new "sponsorship"? I find it remarkable that so many people don't see the egregious problem here.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

diogenescynic 4y ago

Simple solution is to give visas to the applicants with the highest salaries instead of just giving these out at random.

Something1234 4y ago
Wouldn't that be unfair to any potential start ups that needed an H1B for some complex subject matter?
- diogenescynic 4y ago
  If your startup is already H-1B dependent, then I don't feel super bad. Raise more and find local talent at the market rate or go out of business--but startups aren't entitled to a pool of cheap, foreign labor via H-1Bs.
hibikir 4y ago
A variety of other non-software jobs also rely on H-1Bs: See, for instance, lab technicians. A change to highest salaries, while probably way better for the software industry, and applicants in general, would wipe out other sectors. The system definitely needs fixing, but simple solutions often have all kinds of negative side effects.
- diogenescynic 4y ago
  The simple solution is to pay them more if they are so vital. Their value is directly related to their pay. The issue often isn't that talent can't be found... it's that talent can't be found at the price the corporation wants to pay. We need to encourage corporations to pay more which should correspond to the most essential positions needed, not just find the cheapest worker.
slt2021 4y ago
US will lose most nurses and other non-tech, but essential talent

zb1plus 4y ago

[flagged]

avasylev 4y ago
Curious if you have example of racist US visa/immigration policy? There's a lot deserved criticism of current system, but can't think of anything specifically racist.
- giobox 4y ago
  Green card quotas are based entirely on your country of birth. For example, a UK citizen can obtain a green card far, far faster than an Indian citizen. If a UK citizen and Indian citizen on an H1B visa start the Green Card process at the same time, the UK citizen will obtain permanent residency typically in 9-18 months. For the Indian applicant, who applied on same day with same visa and process, it will likely be over 10 years before they have security of permanent residence. Where you were born is built into the foundations of how the USA allocates Green Cards to many visa holders, regardless of who you are, how much you contribute to the USA or earn etc etc. There are attempts to fix this too: > https://www.fwd.us/news/per-country-cap-reform-priority-bill-spotlight/ https://www.fwd.us/news/per-country-cap-reform-priority-bill...
  - zb1plus 4y ago
    Exactly, H1B visas should be entirely blind to country of origin since to do otherwise would amount to de facto racism due to the racial demographics of many countries.
  - alibarber 4y ago
    The UK is an interesting example given that it’s, effectively, the only country in Europe that cannot take part in the annual GC lottery. And even then, Northern Ireland is exempt from that. This has got something to do with the amount of British people who are already in the US, and I expect in the case of your example, that might also have something to do with the number of Indian H1B holders.
  - 4y ago

Temporary_31337 4y ago

Can anyone point me to how much the guy had actually earned? I feel that if he’d stayed in the US and earned Microsoft stock options he’d be much better off financially

xtreme 4y ago
There is more to life than chasing TC.
coding123 4y ago
Is that all that matters to people these days?
- short_sells_poo 4y ago
  No but if we want to quantify whether a decision was a net win or not, a valid approach is to express it in monetary terms. There are other approaches, some more objective some less, but money is simple. E.g. if I worked at MS and over 10 years built a capital of $1mln, vs having worked in India and built a capital of $300k, there may be other considerations, but in purely monetary terms the MS approach would’ve been much better. Further compound interest will make the $1mln wealth run away much faster than $300k.
  - coding123 4y ago
    Except that $300k in India gets you farther than $1M in the US.
Ar-Curunir 4y ago
Err, even disregarding the fact that there's more to life than the money you earn, staying in the US wasn't even an option for him.
techenthusiast1 4y ago
The latest news I can find shows the company he founded was planning to IPO at a valuation of $2.5billion. If one were to assume the founder owns 10% of the company (reasonable at IPO based on what I know), he would have made about $250 million in equity. [https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/snapdeal-plans-350-400-million-ipo-eyes-valuation-of-up-to-2-5-billion-121090301040_1.html https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/snapdeal...] This is in addition to about $650k annual salary in India. [https://www.zeebiz.com/companies/news-snapdeal-co-founders-kunal-bahl-rohit-bansal-to-take-home-rs-5-crore-each-in-salary-in-2021-174197 https://www.zeebiz.com/companies/news-snapdeal-co-founders-k...] This would be pretty much impossible even with a very successful career at Microsoft, short of becoming an SVP or the CEO.

noufalibrahim 4y ago

This is definitely an inspiring story but isn't it an isolated data point? On average, the US has a lot of things going for it for a young software professional if he or she can navigate the immigration maze and is reasonably lucky. Might not be for everyone but for the average person, getting a cushy job in a large company might be better for stability and long term satisfaction that risking it on an attempt to create a unicorn (which is rarely successful).

abc_lisper 4y ago
That's the thing with all the interesting stories though. I'm in no way criticizing you, just thought about this for a while. If we let ourselves guided by interesting(and thus rare) stories, we are obviously setting ourselves for failure, because that's not playing the game that needs to be played.
throw0821374 4y ago
.
- abc_lisper 4y ago
  They also make choices and compromises people in US don't. Every interaction in India is loaded with suspicion. Dishonesty is the baseline. Disrespect is the norm. Xenophobia is common. Insecurity is the guiding North Star. Entitlement is prevalent. Hard work is looked down. Rules are for fools and loyalty (however earned/enforced) is everything. I love my country, but those are the facts.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
anukin 4y ago
Its an extremely isolated data point. He was born rich. Had the money and privilege to do coaching to go to an elite Indian engineering college. Went to US from there. When he came back his buddies from college where VCs. They funded him. His startup collapsed terribly even after so much of luck, privilege and funding. So now he gives outdated gyaan(wisdom) in Twitter.

soniman 4y ago

So brain drain is bad (when it happens to Russia) but good (when the US does it to India)? India is a desperately poor country that needs Indian entrepreneurs. It's ridiculous to frame this as a loss to the US. It is a loss to the world if the desperately poor in India are never lifted out of poverty by their own best and brightest. The US should encourage them to stay in India.

game_the0ry 4y ago

Arguably, Asian industry (India specifically), has much more room to grow - the west is is where things happened, Asia is where things are happening. But East and South Asians immigration will continue. Being "westernized" (usually western education and green card) is valuable as a source of social prestige - having a US masters degree makes you attractive in the marriage market and in social circles.[1] [1] I am South Asian.

yosito 4y ago

As an American from an immigrant family, I think the US is really losing here. We should be giving visas out liberally to any skilled professional who wants one. Immigration is the only thing that ever truly made the US stand out. On the other hand, as a global citizen with multiple passports who hasn't lived in the US for some time, maybe this is a good thing for the rest of the world. Spreading innovation out a bit and allowing other countries to thrive. Growing up in an immigrant family, I always had a sense of diversity being America's strength. But the last decade or so the US seems to have lost sight of the value of diversity. Not completely, but in many ways, partially thanks to US hegemony and the export of the English language, Europe is currently the cultural melting pot I idealized the US as growing up. I think the world would truly be a more peaceful and thriving place if every country were more culturally integrated. Anyway, I'm rambling now... </soapbox>

hunterb123 4y ago
The US allows more immigrants than any other country. What exactly is the criticism?
- nine_zeros 4y ago
  > The US allows more immigrants than any other country. What exactly is the criticism? The system is unbelievably cruel. People die (or see their loved ones die) before they get greencards. It is not a numbers game. If you can attract the best, you need to let them thrive instead of enslaving them.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - outside1234 4y ago
    Are you referring to the 7% cap on the number of people that can get a green card from any one country in a calendar year?
    - 4y ago

throwawsy 4y ago

Most of the top talented engineers i met at meetups are commited to build companies in India. Defence, Infra, Fintech, Medical, Space and Drug sectors are the ones most popular. we are going see future unicorns from these sectors.

dudul 4y ago
How do you identify a "top talented engineer" at a meet up? It could be a useful trick for interview.

Traubenfuchs 4y ago

Over 99.99% of rejected H1B applicants do not build unicorns back home. What is the point here? Let them all in in case one of them makes a unicorn? This is rock people thinking on the level of "every aborted baby could have become the next Mozart".

spoonjim 4y ago
Maybe shut down the southern border and instead admit more H1Bs? And use some judgment instead of a lottery. Someone who's been a manager at Microsoft is obviously a better bet than a TCS bodyshopper.
- 29athrowaway 4y ago
  Unless you come up with a new innovation like self-installing drywalls and roofs, self-picking fruits, or self-slaughtering chickens, shutting down the southern border seems like a really counterproductive idea. Perhaps in a world where people did not need to live under a roof, and did not need to consume fruit or chickens, that idea would be great. Most of the money people in unskilled occupations make goes into purchasing essential stuff like food, which pays sales tax and provides income for corporations.
  - spoonjim 4y ago
    Maybe a strawberry should cost 50 cents
manuelabeledo 4y ago
> What is the point here? Let them all in in case one of them makes a unicorn? The point is that if a talented engineer has to go back home because becoming a permanent resident takes over ten years, and the H-1B system is a literal gamble, then the US immigration policy has failed. > This is rock people thinking on the level of "every aborted baby could have become the next Mozart". The difference being that we know that visa holders are already talented, and maybe they wouldn't build the next unicorn, but their work provides a net benefit to the economy. If anything, it would be overall better for the economy to kick out all the underperformers, regardless of their nationality, and let H-1B holders in.

immigrantheart 4y ago

This is amazing! I think a lot of immigrants should really use their talents back home, building their own country. It will be good for everyone, for the world as well.

martin1975 4y ago

Don't fret. You're probably better off in the nicely developed parts in India as an engineer than anywhere in the USA.

xiaodai 4y ago

it's a bit sad to lose talent like this. Wonder how we can attract talents like this to Australia? I guess the market isn't big enough but selling software is easily an international business so in Aus we have some powerhouse software companiest too like Atlassian and Canva

pid_0 4y ago

rubyist5eva 4y ago

Tbh, this sounds like a good thing to me. Snapdeal is an amazon competitor that likely would not have made it in America. Now Snapdeal gets to actually contribute to the economic growth of India while they are going through their own "industrial revolution" of sorts. Brain drain is devastating for the developing world. Abolishing H1B completely would be a net positive for the world in my opinion.

edmcnulty101 4y ago

This is great news! Turn other countries into a desirable place to be! The more this happens the more people will just stay and work in other countries because US and Europe don't have anything to offer.

manuelabeledo 4y ago
> The more this happens the more people will just stay and work in other countries because US and Europe don't have anything to offer. The point here is that the US is missing on talent, not that other countries would benefit from it. It's a failure of the US immigration policy to the economy.

veaz 4y ago

renewiltord 4y ago

Immigrants take note of what your fellow software engineers are saying here. If you join a union and make it strong, that's what it will look like. Then they will kick you out once you help it be strong. Watch out for tech unions.

Qem 4y ago

If US dealed with immigration in the 1930s-1940s like it's done today, the Manhattan project probably would never had happened and Hitler would get the A-bomb first. Is omnious when a nation that owes so much to migrants becomes hostile to them.