11 ms·

Java in the Browser

102 points by krisgenre 4y ago

adrianmsmith 4y ago
I have looked around the website and I really have no idea what this is. I feel their marketing and doc could do with a bit more explanation if it's intended for devs. Is it like applets in that there is a runtime in the browser? Or more like GWT which compiles Java to Javascript? Also, the website which is apparently created with the technology, is incredibly slow, at least for me. And the website doesn't give useful loading indicators, e.g. click a link, nothing happens, or go to the doc section and navigate and lots of empty screens (presumably while the content is loading). No browser loading indicator, nor spinner in the content.
- qsort 4y ago
  > I have looked around the website and I really have no idea what this is. Judging from the browser developer tools, something that (very slowly) sends the client stuff via a socket.
- JLCarveth 4y ago
  The calendar demo I tried was quite slow as well.
- twic 4y ago
  From elsewhere (site is down for me): > jpro is a new technology which brings Java back into the browser — without Java Plugin. To achieve that, jpro runs JavaFX on the server and maps its scenegraph directly into the browser. JavaFX is the most recent of the standard GUI libraries for Java. Seems like the Java all runs server-side, but it is effectively using a display device which is "send draw commands via a websocket to a JavaScript driver running in a browser". It's sort of an ingenious idea. I assume the target market here is companies which already have custom desktop applications written with JavaFX, and want to make them available remotely. This is competing with remote desktop solutions, not React, wasm, etc.
  - rch 4y ago
    I used a graph analysis app ~2011 that communicated with the server over zmq and rendered via lwjgl. At the time, and perhaps even now, it wouldn't have been reasonable to expect adequate performance if all the results of interactive manipulation were executed on the client hardware. Which was unfortunate for me since I'd also spent a few weeks writing code to visualize the same data, and it was definitely a 'works on my machine' application. I've considered revisiting the problem, but probably not following the implementation discussed here.
  - prionic6 4y ago
    It sounds a lot like Eclipse RAP / RWT which is basically swt in the browser. The biggest downside is that every user has a heavyweight session on the server that holds all the UI state. I think Vercel is also a bit similar to this model.
  - marwis 4y ago
    A Swing version of the same idea: https://jetbrains.github.io/projector-client/mkdocs/latest/ https://jetbrains.github.io/projector-client/mkdocs/latest/
specialist 4y ago
Interesting. Runs app on the server, does final rendering of the UI's scene graph on the client (within the browser). It's not clear from skim reading if the client side rendering is implemented with the DOM or a canvas element. I've always thought it'd be hysterical to use canvas. The whole browser just to hoist a client side frame buffer. X-Windows reinvented. FWIW, JavaFX is so close to The Correct Answer™. Definitely the best effort thus far. (I haven't used SwiftUI yet.)
- luzifer42 4y ago
  The canvas is a powerful tool, especially if you do a lot of graphical work. Rendering the entire UI yourself, gives you complete freedom of layout management. Plus, you avoid any DOM manipulation, directly or through a myriad of JavaScript frameworks. Remember: there is no silver bullet. Example: https://www.isochart.com https://www.isochart.com
  - kevincox 4y ago
    But you also lose a ton of browser features such as options to open links in new tabs or download them, spell checking, search for selected text, find in page, shortcuts to jump to links... You can reimplement each specific feature but you will never get all of the features in every browser.
  - jwandborg 4y ago
    My interpretation of "it's hysterical to use canvas" was that it would be hysterical to draw content elsewhere and then send it to the browser for display. Implementing something that looks like and behaves like a web page in a canvas on a web page is a "of course it's possible, but there must be a better solution" moment. If you then have to pay for the amount of RAM of your central layout/rendering process, it would make it hysterical, as in "maybe we could pay less for RAM if we figured out how to offload layout and rendering to the client". There's probably a niche for this still, because Java isn't inherently bad (pun intended), and if you run out of time but keep getting requirements, this thing could make your existing app be more like a web page, but if you're starting from scratch, why wouldn't you not use this?
pavlov 4y ago
Java in the Browser, February 1996 edition: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/old/journo/netscape.html http://www.antipope.org/charlie/old/journo/netscape.html
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  I made an applet in ‘99. As good as a React app these days.
- solardev 4y ago
  Totally forgot that Netscape had email and a usenet client built-in! What nostalgia. It's funny to me that the original use case of Java -- write-once, run-anywhere -- was eventually overtaken by Javascript, a language that had nothing at all to do with it and just wanted to steal its name for marketing. Well, guess it worked? lol
robertwt7 4y ago
there's a price for this?? I'm not sure what this is by looking at their homepage, is this similar to WASM? also who would pay to develop something for the web anymore?
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Enterprises that aren't going to rewrite from scratch and rather look forward to solutions to keep existing code running. The same reason IBM and Unisys keep their mainframes and microcomputers running with updated hardware.
Koshkin 4y ago
Looks like it’s a custom webserver.
samwillis 4y ago
Site appears to be down, there is an archive here from June 2020: https://archive.ph/mJDAT https://archive.ph/mJDAT Newer archive on IA from March this year doesn't load anything: https://web.archive.org/web/20220316200857/https://jpro.one/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220316200857/https://jpro.one/ However has source code including: <jpro-app loader="none" href="/app/default" fxcontextmenu="false" fullscreen="true" nativescrolling="true" fxheight="true" snapshot="auto" userselect="true"></jpro-app> So assuming there was a newer site that had some sort of embedded Java thing... By the sounds of it, it was a demo where the website ran as java on the server, rendering and pushing to the browser in real time? Guessing it couldn't handle HN traffic...
- Koshkin 4y ago
  They should have built it with jpro.
- qsort 4y ago
  Before it went down I noticed it was sending data through a socket, rendering everything at the very end. So basically a worse Blazor.
opvasger 4y ago
it's sort of funny - I expect Java in the browser not to work well (as it didn't, historically)... And sure enough - the site returns a 502 error :P
- moffkalast 4y ago
  A self fulfilling prophecy.
bschwindHN 4y ago
This is very advanced satire.
- stall84 4y ago
  I busted out laughing
TacticalCoder 4y ago
Anyone remember that Java applet in the nineties where there was some 2D wireframe "animal" moving in a rectangle and there was, IIRC, a tiny circle at each joint and you grab it and move it and it'd move the thing around / distort it. It was the first "serious" Java in the Browser I remember. It was all black & white. Maybe some HNer (not an HNer back then obviously) wrote it back in the days?
- CmdrKrool 4y ago
  I remember! Perhaps that is Soda Constructor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soda_Constructor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soda_Constructor http://maciejmatyka.blogspot.com/2018/02/soda-constructor-revisited.html http://maciejmatyka.blogspot.com/2018/02/soda-constructor-re...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jmiskovic 4y ago
  Soda Constructor? Yeah, that was a fun one. Here's a decent JS clone for some nostalgia: http://panoramx.ift.uni.wroc.pl/~maq/lovesoda/0.36beta.html http://panoramx.ift.uni.wroc.pl/~maq/lovesoda/0.36beta.html
  - matsemann 4y ago
    Huh, I once made a workshop where people used evolutionary algorithms to make a similar shape learn to walk (see gif on top here https://github.com/Matsemann/walkingea https://github.com/Matsemann/walkingea ).
    - rzzzt 4y ago
      There is a paper on two-legged animals learning different methods of walking: https://youtu.be/pgaEE27nsQw https://youtu.be/pgaEE27nsQw (or https://youtu.be/FahK9srJq10 https://youtu.be/FahK9srJq10 for the slightly better known "music video" version). Soda Constructor's wikipedia page also links to a 3D applet named "Springs World 3D", I was playing with that one back in the day.
StevePerkins 4y ago
I don't know if the performance is terrible in general, or if the demo site is getting crushed by HN traffic at the moment. If it's the former, then this is completely useless. If the latter, then I suppose it COULD have some use cases for internal tools and dashboards, in small to mid line-of-business shops that don't have many front-end developers on staff (i.e. basically a competitor to .NET's Blazor). The REALLY interesting thing here is that this product isn't licensed per-server, or per-CPU, but rather "per 8GB block of RAM"! Look, I love Java. It's helped me build a great career, build a future for my family, and I really do believe that it's the best developer experience out there for the server-side. However, the idea of licensing a Java-based product by its memory usage makes me laugh out loud.
- solarkraft 4y ago
  That's actually an interesting way to encourage efficient resource usage.
  - voidwtf 4y ago
    Efficient resource usage or Java. You can only choose one :p
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- dixie_land 4y ago
  maybe that's the selling point? I opened up one demo and despite it is indeed running the browser, it definitely _feels_ like running an AWT widget in ActiveX! oh the memories!
- floriankirmaier 4y ago
  It was the HN traffic. Usually it's very smooth.
  - nextaccountic 4y ago
oaiey 4y ago
I do not know. .NET created with Blazor a modern Applet tech stack based on WebAssembly and HTML. Would not Java be able to do the same and just port the applet API onto a Canvas? Would not that reactivate a whole existing ecosystem?
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Java solutions for JS and WebAssembly as targets are older than Blazor actually, see TeaVM and CheerpJ, and then there was GWT alongside Vaadin.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    You left out probably the most widely used one, Google’s j2cl compiler (java->js), which is used quite extensively in many google products for shared business logic. It is the spiritual inheritor of GWT.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Ah, wasn't aware of it.
  - oaiey 4y ago
    ChherpJ seems more like a browser extension. TeaVM sounds like it at least from the runtime perspective (not so much from app model.. neither applet or Blazor alike? ... But indeed it is older). I think TeaVM could be the foundation to run applets on a WebAssembly and not browser extension.
  - TeaVMFan 4y ago
    Yes, TeaVM predates Blazor and still has the edge on most fronts: https://frequal.com/java/TeaVmVsBlazorWasm1-0.html https://frequal.com/java/TeaVmVsBlazorWasm1-0.html Comparison Chart: https://frequal.com/java/TeaVmVsBlazorChart.html https://frequal.com/java/TeaVmVsBlazorChart.html
    - oaiey 4y ago
invalidname 4y ago
Site is down but it seems like server side rendering which is pretty terrible. There are better solutions for Java developers such as teavm one which Codename One built the web UI support. It supports both web assembly and plain JS. The latter has the advantage of smaller size. Transpiles Java threads into async/await calls. Pretty cool stuff.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  JPro can also target WebAssembly.
- ziftface 4y ago
  What's so bad about server rendering
  - invalidname 4y ago
    Well.. I come from the age of dumb terminals so trauma. We have powerful machines today. Using them like a dumb terminal rubs me the wrong way.
    - ziftface 4y ago
      I've recently come to appreciate server rendering for its simplicity, at least for the tasks it is suited for. But I know what you mean. As a user, it's better to have local apps doing the real work.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Welcome to cloud computing.
      - invalidname 4y ago
        Serverless is the new timeshare.
        pjmlp 4y ago
manholio 4y ago
Now someone please compile a real JRE into WASM and do it right, so I can revive applets with a simple embed. There are loads of old applets that have huge historic and technical value which are becoming harder and harder to use. Example: https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/rocket/ienzl.html https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/rocket/ienzl.html
- yuri91 4y ago
  Here you go: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/cheerpj-applet-runner/bbmolahhldcbngedljfadjlognfaaein?hl=en https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/cheerpj-applet-run... CheerpJ does exactly that: it ships a full JVM implementation (including Swing/AWT, Threads, ...) that runs in JS/Wasm inside your browser. The Applet Runner extension detects applets in the page and runs them through CheerpJ. The example that you list seems to work.
  - manholio 4y ago
    I know about the extensions, it's exactly how I was able to run that specific applet, but that's a high friction experience for the user. If the applet does not run it's very unlikely I will install an extension (or search for a Firefox alternative) unless I'm very motivated. I'm thinking more like a line or two you can add to your pages hosting applets, and it would enable any modern browser to use it. Minimal friction for the webmaster, zero friction for users.
    - yuri91 4y ago
      That is also possible: https://docs.leaningtech.com/cheerpj/Getting-Started https://docs.leaningtech.com/cheerpj/Getting-Started See "Converting an applet"
- slowmotiony 4y ago
  We still use Java applets at work. For example the IBM Host On Demand is used by the cobol/mainframe folks in a lot of banks and other financial institutions. I hate it so much.
peterkelly 4y ago
I thought we tried this already...
- bmacho 4y ago
  And it was way better than anything before and after, but the current politics the given time killed it (which may or may not be relevant anymore).
  - dhosek 4y ago
    The load times and performance for applets were all pretty dismal, and given that about half of them were a site logo with moving waves at the bottom, not so missed. That said, I have a Number Theory textbook which uses computer-assisted explorations (e.g., get lists of pythagorean triples, factor a bunch of large numbers, etc.) and the most accessible version of those was through a set of applets which are challenging to run now (it also has Maple and Mathematica versions of the explorations).
    - kaba0 4y ago
      > The load times and performance for applets were all pretty dismal Javascript was abysmally slow as well, but then it got some insane amount of man-hours spent on it. Also, with that internet speed, everything was slow - I don’t see why would that be a valid criticism against java, especially that Java byte code is insanely compact, much more so than minified js. I think it was just ahead of its time, and Java itself could have easily been used as the web-native language if it is made to interact with the DOM natively.
      - cesarb 4y ago
        > Javascript was abysmally slow as well From what I remember, the Java VM took around a minute to start the first time you opened any page with a Java applet, and it locked the whole browser while it started. Compared to that, Javascript loaded instantly. Also keep in mind that much less was done in Javascript back then, so even though it was interpreted, it didn't feel that slow. > and Java itself could have easily been used as the web-native language if it is made to interact with the DOM natively. From what I recall, a Java applet could interact with the DOM directly (even though most applets didn't); the DOM specification had both Java and Javascript as targets, and it always felt to me that it favored the Java style in its interfaces.
mondainx 4y ago
WASM really is the way to go for this kind of thing IMHO; I love me some Java and have for decades, but Applets were painful, especially when hooking in native code. HN seems to have killed the demo, I'll have to remember to come back later when the hoopla dies down.
jeffreportmill1 4y ago
Well this isn't helpful for those of us that care about Java in the browser. In any case, JPro is really more "Java projected in the browser" (or like twitch/remote-desktop). It's a shortcut with significant drawbacks. I'm more a fan of TeaVM, CheerpJ, J2CL and JSweet. https://reportmill.com/snaptea/ https://reportmill.com/snaptea/
- phendrenad2 4y ago
  Are you building Java apps that need to be in the browser, or are you a fan of the concept of Java in the browser?
TeaVMFan 4y ago
Actual Java in the browser (working, fast, passes Lighthouse) with TeaVM: https://blogs.oracle.com/javamagazine/post/java-in-the-browser-with-teavm https://blogs.oracle.com/javamagazine/post/java-in-the-brows... For example, try this 5-letter word game: https://frequal.com/wordii/ https://frequal.com/wordii/
- exabrial 4y ago
  Nice username :) It looks like TeaVm is still setting steady releases? It’s certainly bucking industry trends, which concerns me about maintenance.
  - TeaVMFan 4y ago
    Yes, TeaVM is still actively maintained by the original author (and contributors). Java 17 record support was recently implemented, for example. TeaVM is coming up on 10 years, so it has proven its longevity.
- pestatije 4y ago
  See also: Migrating Browser-Based Java Applets to IcedTea-Web Using JNLP https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32565828 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32565828
  - dukoid 4y ago
    This sounds more like server-rendered again if I understand this correctly? Is there actually a DOM-based AWT emulation for J2cl (GWT) or TeaVM that can be used to actually run old Applets purely in the browser?
ksherlock 4y ago
There was also Browser in the Java - HotJava, Sun's circa 1996 web browser written in Java. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HotJava https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HotJava
stall84 4y ago
wait a minute .. LOL!!!
butz 4y ago
Time to update "3 Billion Devices Run Java" message.
gabereiser 4y ago
So I guess we’ve come full circle now? Java was the first to run in the browser (via applets).
cryptonector 4y ago
Java in the browser used to be called applets, no? Anyways, it failed, thought that probably had a lot to do with: JavaScript being more accessible (still is) and the security model for applets (JAAS) being rather lame (it was, and still is, and it continues to exist in spite of applets being gone because JAAS metastasized).
- phendrenad2 4y ago
  Yes. Java was removed from browsers due to "security concerns", and yet, here we are, compiling Java to WASM and running it in the browser. Truth is, removing it was more of a political move against Oracle.
floriankirmaier 4y ago
Some notes from the developing company: First of all, sorry for the bad performance in the first hours after this post. The server isn't setup up for a big traffic peak. It was way higher than we are used to. To improve the performance, we increased the memory. Many of our demos represent heavy business applications. Especially the "FlexGanttFX Demo" is a good example. With JPro the Application itself runs "logically" in the server, and the rendering happens with javascript in the client. Usually, the performance is very fast - and the architecture is not noticed by the user. Feel free to ask any further questions.
- prionic6 4y ago
  Is it like Eclipse RAP, just for Java FX? How does it compare to Gluon?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
elwell 4y ago
"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should." - Dr. Ian Malcolm
Joyfield 4y ago
Gb != GB.
paultopia 4y ago
Proposed subtitle: "the original sin"
nice_byte 4y ago
I tried the demo website - it takes seconds to respond to clicks, even on an M1 mac. I'd rather set myself on fire than use software built using this technology.

102 points by krisgenre 4y ago

I have looked around the website and I really have no idea what this is. I feel their marketing and doc could do with a bit more explanation if it's intended for devs. Is it like applets in that there is a runtime in the browser? Or more like GWT which compiles Java to Javascript? Also, the website which is apparently created with the technology, is incredibly slow, at least for me. And the website doesn't give useful loading indicators, e.g. click a link, nothing happens, or go to the doc section and navigate and lots of empty screens (presumably while the content is loading). No browser loading indicator, nor spinner in the content.

qsort 4y ago
> I have looked around the website and I really have no idea what this is. Judging from the browser developer tools, something that (very slowly) sends the client stuff via a socket.
JLCarveth 4y ago
The calendar demo I tried was quite slow as well.
twic 4y ago
From elsewhere (site is down for me): > jpro is a new technology which brings Java back into the browser — without Java Plugin. To achieve that, jpro runs JavaFX on the server and maps its scenegraph directly into the browser. JavaFX is the most recent of the standard GUI libraries for Java. Seems like the Java all runs server-side, but it is effectively using a display device which is "send draw commands via a websocket to a JavaScript driver running in a browser". It's sort of an ingenious idea. I assume the target market here is companies which already have custom desktop applications written with JavaFX, and want to make them available remotely. This is competing with remote desktop solutions, not React, wasm, etc.
- rch 4y ago
  I used a graph analysis app ~2011 that communicated with the server over zmq and rendered via lwjgl. At the time, and perhaps even now, it wouldn't have been reasonable to expect adequate performance if all the results of interactive manipulation were executed on the client hardware. Which was unfortunate for me since I'd also spent a few weeks writing code to visualize the same data, and it was definitely a 'works on my machine' application. I've considered revisiting the problem, but probably not following the implementation discussed here.
- prionic6 4y ago
  It sounds a lot like Eclipse RAP / RWT which is basically swt in the browser. The biggest downside is that every user has a heavyweight session on the server that holds all the UI state. I think Vercel is also a bit similar to this model.
- marwis 4y ago
  A Swing version of the same idea: https://jetbrains.github.io/projector-client/mkdocs/latest/ https://jetbrains.github.io/projector-client/mkdocs/latest/

specialist 4y ago

Interesting. Runs app on the server, does final rendering of the UI's scene graph on the client (within the browser). It's not clear from skim reading if the client side rendering is implemented with the DOM or a canvas element. I've always thought it'd be hysterical to use canvas. The whole browser just to hoist a client side frame buffer. X-Windows reinvented. FWIW, JavaFX is so close to The Correct Answer™. Definitely the best effort thus far. (I haven't used SwiftUI yet.)

luzifer42 4y ago
The canvas is a powerful tool, especially if you do a lot of graphical work. Rendering the entire UI yourself, gives you complete freedom of layout management. Plus, you avoid any DOM manipulation, directly or through a myriad of JavaScript frameworks. Remember: there is no silver bullet. Example: https://www.isochart.com https://www.isochart.com
- kevincox 4y ago
  But you also lose a ton of browser features such as options to open links in new tabs or download them, spell checking, search for selected text, find in page, shortcuts to jump to links... You can reimplement each specific feature but you will never get all of the features in every browser.
- jwandborg 4y ago
  My interpretation of "it's hysterical to use canvas" was that it would be hysterical to draw content elsewhere and then send it to the browser for display. Implementing something that looks like and behaves like a web page in a canvas on a web page is a "of course it's possible, but there must be a better solution" moment. If you then have to pay for the amount of RAM of your central layout/rendering process, it would make it hysterical, as in "maybe we could pay less for RAM if we figured out how to offload layout and rendering to the client". There's probably a niche for this still, because Java isn't inherently bad (pun intended), and if you run out of time but keep getting requirements, this thing could make your existing app be more like a web page, but if you're starting from scratch, why wouldn't you not use this?

pavlov 4y ago

Java in the Browser, February 1996 edition: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/old/journo/netscape.html http://www.antipope.org/charlie/old/journo/netscape.html

quickthrower2 4y ago
I made an applet in ‘99. As good as a React app these days.
solardev 4y ago
Totally forgot that Netscape had email and a usenet client built-in! What nostalgia. It's funny to me that the original use case of Java -- write-once, run-anywhere -- was eventually overtaken by Javascript, a language that had nothing at all to do with it and just wanted to steal its name for marketing. Well, guess it worked? lol

robertwt7 4y ago

there's a price for this?? I'm not sure what this is by looking at their homepage, is this similar to WASM? also who would pay to develop something for the web anymore?

pjmlp 4y ago
Enterprises that aren't going to rewrite from scratch and rather look forward to solutions to keep existing code running. The same reason IBM and Unisys keep their mainframes and microcomputers running with updated hardware.

Koshkin 4y ago

Looks like it’s a custom webserver.

samwillis 4y ago

Site appears to be down, there is an archive here from June 2020: https://archive.ph/mJDAT https://archive.ph/mJDAT Newer archive on IA from March this year doesn't load anything: https://web.archive.org/web/20220316200857/https://jpro.one/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220316200857/https://jpro.one/ However has source code including: <jpro-app loader="none" href="/app/default" fxcontextmenu="false" fullscreen="true" nativescrolling="true" fxheight="true" snapshot="auto" userselect="true"></jpro-app> So assuming there was a newer site that had some sort of embedded Java thing... By the sounds of it, it was a demo where the website ran as java on the server, rendering and pushing to the browser in real time? Guessing it couldn't handle HN traffic...

Koshkin 4y ago
They should have built it with jpro.
qsort 4y ago
Before it went down I noticed it was sending data through a socket, rendering everything at the very end. So basically a worse Blazor.

opvasger 4y ago

it's sort of funny - I expect Java in the browser not to work well (as it didn't, historically)... And sure enough - the site returns a 502 error :P

moffkalast 4y ago
A self fulfilling prophecy.

bschwindHN 4y ago

This is very advanced satire.

stall84 4y ago
I busted out laughing

TacticalCoder 4y ago

Anyone remember that Java applet in the nineties where there was some 2D wireframe "animal" moving in a rectangle and there was, IIRC, a tiny circle at each joint and you grab it and move it and it'd move the thing around / distort it. It was the first "serious" Java in the Browser I remember. It was all black & white. Maybe some HNer (not an HNer back then obviously) wrote it back in the days?

CmdrKrool 4y ago
I remember! Perhaps that is Soda Constructor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soda_Constructor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soda_Constructor http://maciejmatyka.blogspot.com/2018/02/soda-constructor-revisited.html http://maciejmatyka.blogspot.com/2018/02/soda-constructor-re...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jmiskovic 4y ago
Soda Constructor? Yeah, that was a fun one. Here's a decent JS clone for some nostalgia: http://panoramx.ift.uni.wroc.pl/~maq/lovesoda/0.36beta.html http://panoramx.ift.uni.wroc.pl/~maq/lovesoda/0.36beta.html
- matsemann 4y ago
  Huh, I once made a workshop where people used evolutionary algorithms to make a similar shape learn to walk (see gif on top here https://github.com/Matsemann/walkingea https://github.com/Matsemann/walkingea ).
  - rzzzt 4y ago
    There is a paper on two-legged animals learning different methods of walking: https://youtu.be/pgaEE27nsQw https://youtu.be/pgaEE27nsQw (or https://youtu.be/FahK9srJq10 https://youtu.be/FahK9srJq10 for the slightly better known "music video" version). Soda Constructor's wikipedia page also links to a 3D applet named "Springs World 3D", I was playing with that one back in the day.

StevePerkins 4y ago

I don't know if the performance is terrible in general, or if the demo site is getting crushed by HN traffic at the moment. If it's the former, then this is completely useless. If the latter, then I suppose it COULD have some use cases for internal tools and dashboards, in small to mid line-of-business shops that don't have many front-end developers on staff (i.e. basically a competitor to .NET's Blazor). The REALLY interesting thing here is that this product isn't licensed per-server, or per-CPU, but rather "per 8GB block of RAM"! Look, I love Java. It's helped me build a great career, build a future for my family, and I really do believe that it's the best developer experience out there for the server-side. However, the idea of licensing a Java-based product by its memory usage makes me laugh out loud.

solarkraft 4y ago
That's actually an interesting way to encourage efficient resource usage.
- voidwtf 4y ago
  Efficient resource usage or Java. You can only choose one :p
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
dixie_land 4y ago
maybe that's the selling point? I opened up one demo and despite it is indeed running the browser, it definitely _feels_ like running an AWT widget in ActiveX! oh the memories!
floriankirmaier 4y ago
It was the HN traffic. Usually it's very smooth.
- nextaccountic 4y ago

oaiey 4y ago

I do not know. .NET created with Blazor a modern Applet tech stack based on WebAssembly and HTML. Would not Java be able to do the same and just port the applet API onto a Canvas? Would not that reactivate a whole existing ecosystem?

pjmlp 4y ago
Java solutions for JS and WebAssembly as targets are older than Blazor actually, see TeaVM and CheerpJ, and then there was GWT alongside Vaadin.
- kaba0 4y ago
  You left out probably the most widely used one, Google’s j2cl compiler (java->js), which is used quite extensively in many google products for shared business logic. It is the spiritual inheritor of GWT.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Ah, wasn't aware of it.
- oaiey 4y ago
  ChherpJ seems more like a browser extension. TeaVM sounds like it at least from the runtime perspective (not so much from app model.. neither applet or Blazor alike? ... But indeed it is older). I think TeaVM could be the foundation to run applets on a WebAssembly and not browser extension.
- TeaVMFan 4y ago
  Yes, TeaVM predates Blazor and still has the edge on most fronts: https://frequal.com/java/TeaVmVsBlazorWasm1-0.html https://frequal.com/java/TeaVmVsBlazorWasm1-0.html Comparison Chart: https://frequal.com/java/TeaVmVsBlazorChart.html https://frequal.com/java/TeaVmVsBlazorChart.html
  - oaiey 4y ago

invalidname 4y ago

Site is down but it seems like server side rendering which is pretty terrible. There are better solutions for Java developers such as teavm one which Codename One built the web UI support. It supports both web assembly and plain JS. The latter has the advantage of smaller size. Transpiles Java threads into async/await calls. Pretty cool stuff.

pjmlp 4y ago
JPro can also target WebAssembly.
ziftface 4y ago
What's so bad about server rendering
- invalidname 4y ago
  Well.. I come from the age of dumb terminals so trauma. We have powerful machines today. Using them like a dumb terminal rubs me the wrong way.
  - ziftface 4y ago
    I've recently come to appreciate server rendering for its simplicity, at least for the tasks it is suited for. But I know what you mean. As a user, it's better to have local apps doing the real work.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Welcome to cloud computing.
    - invalidname 4y ago
      Serverless is the new timeshare.
      - pjmlp 4y ago

manholio 4y ago

Now someone please compile a real JRE into WASM and do it right, so I can revive applets with a simple embed. There are loads of old applets that have huge historic and technical value which are becoming harder and harder to use. Example: https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/rocket/ienzl.html https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/rocket/ienzl.html

yuri91 4y ago
Here you go: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/cheerpj-applet-runner/bbmolahhldcbngedljfadjlognfaaein?hl=en https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/cheerpj-applet-run... CheerpJ does exactly that: it ships a full JVM implementation (including Swing/AWT, Threads, ...) that runs in JS/Wasm inside your browser. The Applet Runner extension detects applets in the page and runs them through CheerpJ. The example that you list seems to work.
- manholio 4y ago
  I know about the extensions, it's exactly how I was able to run that specific applet, but that's a high friction experience for the user. If the applet does not run it's very unlikely I will install an extension (or search for a Firefox alternative) unless I'm very motivated. I'm thinking more like a line or two you can add to your pages hosting applets, and it would enable any modern browser to use it. Minimal friction for the webmaster, zero friction for users.
  - yuri91 4y ago
    That is also possible: https://docs.leaningtech.com/cheerpj/Getting-Started https://docs.leaningtech.com/cheerpj/Getting-Started See "Converting an applet"
slowmotiony 4y ago
We still use Java applets at work. For example the IBM Host On Demand is used by the cobol/mainframe folks in a lot of banks and other financial institutions. I hate it so much.

peterkelly 4y ago

I thought we tried this already...

bmacho 4y ago
And it was way better than anything before and after, but the current politics the given time killed it (which may or may not be relevant anymore).
- dhosek 4y ago
  The load times and performance for applets were all pretty dismal, and given that about half of them were a site logo with moving waves at the bottom, not so missed. That said, I have a Number Theory textbook which uses computer-assisted explorations (e.g., get lists of pythagorean triples, factor a bunch of large numbers, etc.) and the most accessible version of those was through a set of applets which are challenging to run now (it also has Maple and Mathematica versions of the explorations).
  - kaba0 4y ago
    > The load times and performance for applets were all pretty dismal Javascript was abysmally slow as well, but then it got some insane amount of man-hours spent on it. Also, with that internet speed, everything was slow - I don’t see why would that be a valid criticism against java, especially that Java byte code is insanely compact, much more so than minified js. I think it was just ahead of its time, and Java itself could have easily been used as the web-native language if it is made to interact with the DOM natively.
    - cesarb 4y ago
      > Javascript was abysmally slow as well From what I remember, the Java VM took around a minute to start the first time you opened any page with a Java applet, and it locked the whole browser while it started. Compared to that, Javascript loaded instantly. Also keep in mind that much less was done in Javascript back then, so even though it was interpreted, it didn't feel that slow. > and Java itself could have easily been used as the web-native language if it is made to interact with the DOM natively. From what I recall, a Java applet could interact with the DOM directly (even though most applets didn't); the DOM specification had both Java and Javascript as targets, and it always felt to me that it favored the Java style in its interfaces.

mondainx 4y ago

WASM really is the way to go for this kind of thing IMHO; I love me some Java and have for decades, but Applets were painful, especially when hooking in native code. HN seems to have killed the demo, I'll have to remember to come back later when the hoopla dies down.

jeffreportmill1 4y ago

Well this isn't helpful for those of us that care about Java in the browser. In any case, JPro is really more "Java projected in the browser" (or like twitch/remote-desktop). It's a shortcut with significant drawbacks. I'm more a fan of TeaVM, CheerpJ, J2CL and JSweet. https://reportmill.com/snaptea/ https://reportmill.com/snaptea/

phendrenad2 4y ago
Are you building Java apps that need to be in the browser, or are you a fan of the concept of Java in the browser?

TeaVMFan 4y ago

Actual Java in the browser (working, fast, passes Lighthouse) with TeaVM: https://blogs.oracle.com/javamagazine/post/java-in-the-browser-with-teavm https://blogs.oracle.com/javamagazine/post/java-in-the-brows... For example, try this 5-letter word game: https://frequal.com/wordii/ https://frequal.com/wordii/

exabrial 4y ago
Nice username :) It looks like TeaVm is still setting steady releases? It’s certainly bucking industry trends, which concerns me about maintenance.
- TeaVMFan 4y ago
  Yes, TeaVM is still actively maintained by the original author (and contributors). Java 17 record support was recently implemented, for example. TeaVM is coming up on 10 years, so it has proven its longevity.
pestatije 4y ago
See also: Migrating Browser-Based Java Applets to IcedTea-Web Using JNLP https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32565828 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32565828
- dukoid 4y ago
  This sounds more like server-rendered again if I understand this correctly? Is there actually a DOM-based AWT emulation for J2cl (GWT) or TeaVM that can be used to actually run old Applets purely in the browser?

ksherlock 4y ago

There was also Browser in the Java - HotJava, Sun's circa 1996 web browser written in Java. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HotJava https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HotJava

stall84 4y ago

wait a minute .. LOL!!!

butz 4y ago

Time to update "3 Billion Devices Run Java" message.

gabereiser 4y ago

So I guess we’ve come full circle now? Java was the first to run in the browser (via applets).

cryptonector 4y ago

Java in the browser used to be called applets, no? Anyways, it failed, thought that probably had a lot to do with: JavaScript being more accessible (still is) and the security model for applets (JAAS) being rather lame (it was, and still is, and it continues to exist in spite of applets being gone because JAAS metastasized).

phendrenad2 4y ago
Yes. Java was removed from browsers due to "security concerns", and yet, here we are, compiling Java to WASM and running it in the browser. Truth is, removing it was more of a political move against Oracle.

floriankirmaier 4y ago

Some notes from the developing company: First of all, sorry for the bad performance in the first hours after this post. The server isn't setup up for a big traffic peak. It was way higher than we are used to. To improve the performance, we increased the memory. Many of our demos represent heavy business applications. Especially the "FlexGanttFX Demo" is a good example. With JPro the Application itself runs "logically" in the server, and the rendering happens with javascript in the client. Usually, the performance is very fast - and the architecture is not noticed by the user. Feel free to ask any further questions.

prionic6 4y ago
Is it like Eclipse RAP, just for Java FX? How does it compare to Gluon?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

elwell 4y ago

"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should." - Dr. Ian Malcolm

Joyfield 4y ago

Gb != GB.

paultopia 4y ago

Proposed subtitle: "the original sin"

nice_byte 4y ago

I tried the demo website - it takes seconds to respond to clicks, even on an M1 mac. I'd rather set myself on fire than use software built using this technology.