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It doesn't matter how low the error rate is. The fact that the European Commission wants to have a third (robotic) participant listening in on every digital com

It doesn't matter how low the error rate is. The fact that the European Commission wants to have a third (robotic) participant listening in on every digital communication is absolutely ridiculous. Saying that this is about child protection is a blatant lie. This serves only as a stepping stone to introduce other screening criteria later. And with opaque ML models it will be very tedious to determine what the model is supposed to find.

kurupt213 4y ago
I agree, child protection isn’t what’s driving this. It’s the deflection
- ChrisKnott 4y ago
  What evidence do you have to support this? Everything I can see suggests that they sincerely believe this will help protect children.
  - Spivak 4y ago
    Especially because in the US we already do this and the sky hasn’t fallen. Storage providers and hosting services already scan for it and popular chat apps block sending matching images client side. Like everyone saying this is the spiral to dystopia has to contend with the fact that we’re already apparently living in one.
    - WillPostForFood 4y ago
      The alarm here is because the EU is proposing mandating it, that’s not happened yet in the US.
    - qubex 4y ago
      The sky hasn’t fallen?? Have you read https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/21/technology/google-surveillance-toddler-photo.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/21/technology/google-surveil... ?
      - donkeyd 4y ago
        Not the first of such stories either: https://borncity.com/win/2020/08/16/microsoft-kontensperrungen-und-die-onedrive-nacktfotos/ https://borncity.com/win/2020/08/16/microsoft-kontensperrung... This is why I explicitly make on-site backups of anything that's in the cloud and don't store my passwords with Apple. If they suddenly decided I had CSAM for some reason, I'd be locked out of everything.
      - Spivak 4y ago
        Google found an image of potential cp, literally a naked child, and forwarded it to the authorities to figure out if it was legit. Other than the person having their Google account suspended which is a separate issue from the surveillance I see zero issue with the events as they happened. In a bygone era where you had to get photos developed I would have expected the 1 hour photo employee to do the same.
        qubex 4y ago
        That’s a totally alien idea to me. I grew up in a very nudity-friendly family in Europe and the idea that something as trivial as a naked photograph could occasion such a quasi-disaster is absolutely horrifying.
        kurupt213 4y ago
        A photo of a naked child isn’t automatically CP
        Spivak 4y ago
        Which is was forwarded to the police for them to make that determination, do you want the alternative where Google decides?
    - thfuran 4y ago
      A lot of Europeans would consider the US fairly dystopian, yes.
    - mardifoufs 4y ago
      What? The US doesn't do this. What's the law that mandates scanning chat messages?
      - kurupt213 4y ago
        I think the US does it without the law. They’re proactive like that
  - dangerface 4y ago
    What evidence is there that spying on the public will reduce child molestation? When you consider that the majority of perpetrators are family members how would spying on the publics chat help detect or prevent that? I don't think there are many child molesters boasting about it tbh. Would such a law prevent child molestation or prevent molesters from talking about it? There is no evidence and little reason to believe this will protect children. Before infringing on innocent peoples privacy there must be some evidence that it will actually help protect children. There is no evidence to support this nor calls to study the efficacy idea. Makes me think protecting children is not the intention of their spying.
  - wsc981 4y ago
    The way the EU Commission handled whistleblower Roelie Post regarding child trafficking makes me think the safety of children is not the highest priority of the EU Commission. Even today she lives in fear and under a lot of pressure as can be seen on her Twitter account. Basically the EU Commission punished her for being a whistleblower. http://www.roeliepost.com/ http://www.roeliepost.com/ https://www-vpro-nl.translate.goog/argos/lees/nieuws/2019/Geen-hulp-voor-klokkenluider-Roelie-Post.html?_x_tr_sl=nl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-vpro-nl.translate.goog/argos/lees/nieuws/2019/Ge...
ChrisKnott 4y ago
> "Saying that this is about child protection is a blatant lie." Why do you think this? What evidence would convince you that they are sincerely trying to protect children? Helen Lovejoy wasn't lying, she was sincerely (but irrationally) concerned for the children. HNers believe this conspiracy theory about their own governments (that they are deliberately secretly plotting to be despotic, and using the cover of trying to protect children) with no actual evidence, just a lot of winks and eyebrow wiggling. Complete abdication of rational thinking.
- wyager 4y ago
  > Why do you think this? Anyone with a bayesian world-model thinks this. It's one of the most tired and obvious lies of all time, to the point that "think of the children" is a well-known trope. > What evidence would convince you that they are sincerely trying to protect children? Their behavior would have to actually reflect such a stance.
- imtringued 4y ago
  This technology is ineffective at saving children and highly effective at ruining more lives than it could theoretically save even with perfect conditions.
  - donkeyd 4y ago
    Yes, both true, but in no way contrary to the statement you're replying to. Politicians in general are highly ignorant on technology and have no clue about the impact of ideas like this. They get advice from advisory boards populated by political science students that had internships at IT companies and are now 'advisor on AI in government'. Sometimes they get external advice from expensive consultants that tell them what they want to hear, especially if they think they might be able to sell more projects afterwards. So, a politician who objectively wants to protect children in a modern world will come up with dumb ideas like this and get confirmation that it's not a dumb idea. It's Hanlon's Razor at work.
- vaylian 4y ago
  > Why do you think this? Because Zensursula has tried to pull off this trick before. Her party is very eager to introduce more surveillance and they like to brush off technical and ethical concerns.

kurupt213 4y ago

I agree, child protection isn’t what’s driving this. It’s the deflection

ChrisKnott 4y ago
What evidence do you have to support this? Everything I can see suggests that they sincerely believe this will help protect children.
- Spivak 4y ago
  Especially because in the US we already do this and the sky hasn’t fallen. Storage providers and hosting services already scan for it and popular chat apps block sending matching images client side. Like everyone saying this is the spiral to dystopia has to contend with the fact that we’re already apparently living in one.
  - WillPostForFood 4y ago
    The alarm here is because the EU is proposing mandating it, that’s not happened yet in the US.
  - qubex 4y ago
    The sky hasn’t fallen?? Have you read https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/21/technology/google-surveillance-toddler-photo.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/21/technology/google-surveil... ?
    - donkeyd 4y ago
      Not the first of such stories either: https://borncity.com/win/2020/08/16/microsoft-kontensperrungen-und-die-onedrive-nacktfotos/ https://borncity.com/win/2020/08/16/microsoft-kontensperrung... This is why I explicitly make on-site backups of anything that's in the cloud and don't store my passwords with Apple. If they suddenly decided I had CSAM for some reason, I'd be locked out of everything.
    - Spivak 4y ago
      Google found an image of potential cp, literally a naked child, and forwarded it to the authorities to figure out if it was legit. Other than the person having their Google account suspended which is a separate issue from the surveillance I see zero issue with the events as they happened. In a bygone era where you had to get photos developed I would have expected the 1 hour photo employee to do the same.
      - qubex 4y ago
        That’s a totally alien idea to me. I grew up in a very nudity-friendly family in Europe and the idea that something as trivial as a naked photograph could occasion such a quasi-disaster is absolutely horrifying.
      - kurupt213 4y ago
        A photo of a naked child isn’t automatically CP
        Spivak 4y ago
        Which is was forwarded to the police for them to make that determination, do you want the alternative where Google decides?
  - thfuran 4y ago
    A lot of Europeans would consider the US fairly dystopian, yes.
  - mardifoufs 4y ago
    What? The US doesn't do this. What's the law that mandates scanning chat messages?
    - kurupt213 4y ago
      I think the US does it without the law. They’re proactive like that
- dangerface 4y ago
  What evidence is there that spying on the public will reduce child molestation? When you consider that the majority of perpetrators are family members how would spying on the publics chat help detect or prevent that? I don't think there are many child molesters boasting about it tbh. Would such a law prevent child molestation or prevent molesters from talking about it? There is no evidence and little reason to believe this will protect children. Before infringing on innocent peoples privacy there must be some evidence that it will actually help protect children. There is no evidence to support this nor calls to study the efficacy idea. Makes me think protecting children is not the intention of their spying.
- wsc981 4y ago
  The way the EU Commission handled whistleblower Roelie Post regarding child trafficking makes me think the safety of children is not the highest priority of the EU Commission. Even today she lives in fear and under a lot of pressure as can be seen on her Twitter account. Basically the EU Commission punished her for being a whistleblower. http://www.roeliepost.com/ http://www.roeliepost.com/ https://www-vpro-nl.translate.goog/argos/lees/nieuws/2019/Geen-hulp-voor-klokkenluider-Roelie-Post.html?_x_tr_sl=nl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-vpro-nl.translate.goog/argos/lees/nieuws/2019/Ge...

ChrisKnott 4y ago

> "Saying that this is about child protection is a blatant lie." Why do you think this? What evidence would convince you that they are sincerely trying to protect children? Helen Lovejoy wasn't lying, she was sincerely (but irrationally) concerned for the children. HNers believe this conspiracy theory about their own governments (that they are deliberately secretly plotting to be despotic, and using the cover of trying to protect children) with no actual evidence, just a lot of winks and eyebrow wiggling. Complete abdication of rational thinking.

wyager 4y ago
> Why do you think this? Anyone with a bayesian world-model thinks this. It's one of the most tired and obvious lies of all time, to the point that "think of the children" is a well-known trope. > What evidence would convince you that they are sincerely trying to protect children? Their behavior would have to actually reflect such a stance.
imtringued 4y ago
This technology is ineffective at saving children and highly effective at ruining more lives than it could theoretically save even with perfect conditions.
- donkeyd 4y ago
  Yes, both true, but in no way contrary to the statement you're replying to. Politicians in general are highly ignorant on technology and have no clue about the impact of ideas like this. They get advice from advisory boards populated by political science students that had internships at IT companies and are now 'advisor on AI in government'. Sometimes they get external advice from expensive consultants that tell them what they want to hear, especially if they think they might be able to sell more projects afterwards. So, a politician who objectively wants to protect children in a modern world will come up with dumb ideas like this and get confirmation that it's not a dumb idea. It's Hanlon's Razor at work.
vaylian 4y ago
> Why do you think this? Because Zensursula has tried to pull off this trick before. Her party is very eager to introduce more surveillance and they like to brush off technical and ethical concerns.