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With the amount of lithium required in batteries for ships, and the issues with recycling them, is green hydrogen/synthetic fuel not a better option overall? Or

With the amount of lithium required in batteries for ships, and the issues with recycling them, is green hydrogen/synthetic fuel not a better option overall? Or are these options too expensive?

radium3d 4y ago
Maybe we need smaller hydrofoil container ships
- nradov 4y ago
  Well Boundary Layer Technologies (a Y Combinator portfolio company) is working on that. But it will never be more than a small niche market for high-value, time-sensitive cargoes. https://www.boundarylayer.tech/ https://www.boundarylayer.tech/
  - antisthenes 4y ago
    > small niche market for high-value, time-sensitive cargoes. You mean air freight, right?
    - nradov 4y ago
      They're aiming for the niche market that's slower than air freight but faster than displacement hull cargo ships. Not sure if that market is really large enough for a viable business, but we'll see.
stephen_g 4y ago
Yeah, shipping does seem to be one of the main applications where green hydrogen actually makes sense. Battery chemistry should improve to the point where basically no road transport should need anything else over the next 20 years (we're basically already there for most car applications, still some improvement needed for trucking etc., although maybe battery swaps is a better model there anyway). Ships need huge amounts of energy, but have the space to deal with hydrogen's poor volumetric density, unlike aviation, where I think synthetic fuel is a better option.
jcampbell1 4y ago
Green hydrogen has terrible economics. With green hydrogen you take $1 of electricity to get $.50 of hydrogen bond energy and then run it through a fuel cell to get $.25 of propulsion. It is worse when you account for compressing the hydrogen, and much worse if you burn or convert the hydrogen to liquid fuel. With batteries, you take $1 of electricity and get $.90 of propulsion. Hydrogen is not realistic.
- CorrectHorseBat 4y ago
  Not really, electricity prices only need to fluctuate by a factor of four for this to be economically viable.
- alfor 4y ago
  I agree, it only make sense if you have so much excess solar that you don’t know what to do with it in peak production. Even then, you need to factor in the depreciation of the hydrogen facilities.
- MrRiddle 4y ago
  But is it completely green? I live fairly close to a huge lithium deposit, and while people from western world are enjoying the benefits of EVs, people around here might get their habitat destroyed. In my book it’s not green if it’s not completely green. And EVs are certainly not.
stocknoob 4y ago
Agreed. Why not liquid natural gas? https://www.freightwaves.com/news/largest-lng-powered-container-ship-making-maiden-voyage/ https://www.freightwaves.com/news/largest-lng-powered-contai... https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/natural_gas_renewable.html https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/natural_gas_renewable.html
Schroedingersat 4y ago
Ammonia or methane would be a better choice. Hydrogen is a bit awkward for mobile applications, at least while metal hydrides are expensive and made of scarce materials.

With the amount of lithium required in batteries for ships, and the issues with recycling them, is green hydrogen/synthetic fuel not a better option overall? Or are these options too expensive?

radium3d 4y ago

Maybe we need smaller hydrofoil container ships

nradov 4y ago
Well Boundary Layer Technologies (a Y Combinator portfolio company) is working on that. But it will never be more than a small niche market for high-value, time-sensitive cargoes. https://www.boundarylayer.tech/ https://www.boundarylayer.tech/
- antisthenes 4y ago
  > small niche market for high-value, time-sensitive cargoes. You mean air freight, right?
  - nradov 4y ago
    They're aiming for the niche market that's slower than air freight but faster than displacement hull cargo ships. Not sure if that market is really large enough for a viable business, but we'll see.

stephen_g 4y ago

Yeah, shipping does seem to be one of the main applications where green hydrogen actually makes sense. Battery chemistry should improve to the point where basically no road transport should need anything else over the next 20 years (we're basically already there for most car applications, still some improvement needed for trucking etc., although maybe battery swaps is a better model there anyway). Ships need huge amounts of energy, but have the space to deal with hydrogen's poor volumetric density, unlike aviation, where I think synthetic fuel is a better option.

jcampbell1 4y ago

Green hydrogen has terrible economics. With green hydrogen you take $1 of electricity to get $.50 of hydrogen bond energy and then run it through a fuel cell to get $.25 of propulsion. It is worse when you account for compressing the hydrogen, and much worse if you burn or convert the hydrogen to liquid fuel. With batteries, you take $1 of electricity and get $.90 of propulsion. Hydrogen is not realistic.

CorrectHorseBat 4y ago
Not really, electricity prices only need to fluctuate by a factor of four for this to be economically viable.
alfor 4y ago
I agree, it only make sense if you have so much excess solar that you don’t know what to do with it in peak production. Even then, you need to factor in the depreciation of the hydrogen facilities.
MrRiddle 4y ago
But is it completely green? I live fairly close to a huge lithium deposit, and while people from western world are enjoying the benefits of EVs, people around here might get their habitat destroyed. In my book it’s not green if it’s not completely green. And EVs are certainly not.

stocknoob 4y ago

Agreed. Why not liquid natural gas? https://www.freightwaves.com/news/largest-lng-powered-container-ship-making-maiden-voyage/ https://www.freightwaves.com/news/largest-lng-powered-contai... https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/natural_gas_renewable.html https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/natural_gas_renewable.html

Schroedingersat 4y ago

Ammonia or methane would be a better choice. Hydrogen is a bit awkward for mobile applications, at least while metal hydrides are expensive and made of scarce materials.