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I don't get your criticism. Why should there not be zero fuel cost? Your second argument is supposed to be a variable? Since with a wider grid, the volatility

I don't get your criticism. Why should there not be zero fuel cost? Your second argument is supposed to be a variable? Since with a wider grid, the volatility falls ("there is always wind somewhere"). I also don't think the size of the whole grid should be priced into a single power source. Why not price that into other non-green sources too if the local grid doesn't support the whole country?

nonethewiser 4y ago
I think the point is that the cost of solar is actually the cost of solar + the cost of whatever other source required to supplement it.
- Krasnol 4y ago
Manuel_D 4y ago
The issue is that intermittent sources are really working to subtract the emissions of fossil fuel plants. Generating electricity completely, or even partially from intermittent sources is a totally different ball game. Put this in practice: Solar costs $5 per watt hour, and comprises 25% of the grid. Fossil fuels cost $10 per watt hour and comprise 100% of the grid. Solar is cheaper than fossil fuels in a zero fuel cost model. But you can't just change the remaining 75% of the grid to solar and save a bunch of money. Solar produces energy in a sine wave (in the short term, there's also weather fluctuations in the longer term). You'd end up with a huge energy surplus at noon, and energy shortages from dusk to dawn. In this sense the actual price of renewables is heavily dependent on the price of fossil fuels. Because wind and solar are really "gas supplemented by wind and solar". You can't have the latter without the former. Hence why Germany is in such a bind right now.
- AstralStorm 4y ago
  Ultimately you would have "solar and wind supplemented by batteries/power to gas/hydrogen and fusion", but that's still years off, which we do not have. So the more workable idea would be to have a percentage of nuclear for the critical always on load, and to provide some industrial overcapacity at time.
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    Base load accounts for 70-80% of most grid demand. Plus, the demand peaks usually happen when renewables aren't producing electricity.
- Krasnol 4y ago
  So you say we should price in all those fossil and renewable sources which help France and they rotting nuclear fleet these days? The whole "criticism" (more like: meddling) of Lazard grew from the fans of nuclear. It doesn't make any sense but to make nuclear look better. However it backfires spectacularly these days.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    Did you look at historical data on who gave who electricity in former years? Climate change is changing the playing field fast and unexpectedly, but let’s not forget that e.g. solar panels don’t work better in huge heat either - it affects everything. And even so, nuclear plants will go back to producing a shitton of energy once the weather cools a bit.
    - Krasnol 4y ago
      > Did you look at historical data on who gave who electricity in former years? I did and Germany has been exporting more than they buy for decades. Considering that just like France it is part of a single market and France HAS to run their fleet all the time and so is selling "cheap" on the EEX it's quite surprising that Germany doesn't buy more cheap nuclear energy from France throughout the year. But it doesn't ant that's not only because of the failures of the French fleet in summer and winter but also because it's not really cheap. It's only "cheap" for the French consumers because there is a fixed price and they pay for the real price with their taxes. > And even so, nuclear plants will go back to producing a shitton of energy once the weather cools a bit. Let's hope so for the not self sufficient country of France so the rest of Europe with their diversified power sources won't have to safe their ass again. PS. it is not "just" the heat which has wrecked their nuclear fleet. Look it up. It's a massive fuckup and they need to be done by winter when all those electric heaters in French homes will come on line.
      - Manuel_D 4y ago
        France has also been exporting about twice as much energy as they import: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1279015/france-electricity-trade-in-europe-by-country/#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20France%20exported%20a,with%20nearly%2022%20terawatt%20hours https://www.statista.com/statistics/1279015/france-electrici.... The difference is that most of France's exports are carbon-free energy.

nonethewiser 4y ago

I think the point is that the cost of solar is actually the cost of solar + the cost of whatever other source required to supplement it.

Krasnol 4y ago

Manuel_D 4y ago

The issue is that intermittent sources are really working to subtract the emissions of fossil fuel plants. Generating electricity completely, or even partially from intermittent sources is a totally different ball game. Put this in practice: Solar costs $5 per watt hour, and comprises 25% of the grid. Fossil fuels cost $10 per watt hour and comprise 100% of the grid. Solar is cheaper than fossil fuels in a zero fuel cost model. But you can't just change the remaining 75% of the grid to solar and save a bunch of money. Solar produces energy in a sine wave (in the short term, there's also weather fluctuations in the longer term). You'd end up with a huge energy surplus at noon, and energy shortages from dusk to dawn. In this sense the actual price of renewables is heavily dependent on the price of fossil fuels. Because wind and solar are really "gas supplemented by wind and solar". You can't have the latter without the former. Hence why Germany is in such a bind right now.

AstralStorm 4y ago
Ultimately you would have "solar and wind supplemented by batteries/power to gas/hydrogen and fusion", but that's still years off, which we do not have. So the more workable idea would be to have a percentage of nuclear for the critical always on load, and to provide some industrial overcapacity at time.
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  Base load accounts for 70-80% of most grid demand. Plus, the demand peaks usually happen when renewables aren't producing electricity.
Krasnol 4y ago
So you say we should price in all those fossil and renewable sources which help France and they rotting nuclear fleet these days? The whole "criticism" (more like: meddling) of Lazard grew from the fans of nuclear. It doesn't make any sense but to make nuclear look better. However it backfires spectacularly these days.
- kaba0 4y ago
  Did you look at historical data on who gave who electricity in former years? Climate change is changing the playing field fast and unexpectedly, but let’s not forget that e.g. solar panels don’t work better in huge heat either - it affects everything. And even so, nuclear plants will go back to producing a shitton of energy once the weather cools a bit.
  - Krasnol 4y ago
    > Did you look at historical data on who gave who electricity in former years? I did and Germany has been exporting more than they buy for decades. Considering that just like France it is part of a single market and France HAS to run their fleet all the time and so is selling "cheap" on the EEX it's quite surprising that Germany doesn't buy more cheap nuclear energy from France throughout the year. But it doesn't ant that's not only because of the failures of the French fleet in summer and winter but also because it's not really cheap. It's only "cheap" for the French consumers because there is a fixed price and they pay for the real price with their taxes. > And even so, nuclear plants will go back to producing a shitton of energy once the weather cools a bit. Let's hope so for the not self sufficient country of France so the rest of Europe with their diversified power sources won't have to safe their ass again. PS. it is not "just" the heat which has wrecked their nuclear fleet. Look it up. It's a massive fuckup and they need to be done by winter when all those electric heaters in French homes will come on line.
    - Manuel_D 4y ago
      France has also been exporting about twice as much energy as they import: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1279015/france-electricity-trade-in-europe-by-country/#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20France%20exported%20a,with%20nearly%2022%20terawatt%20hours https://www.statista.com/statistics/1279015/france-electrici.... The difference is that most of France's exports are carbon-free energy.