5 ms·

Storing heat is actually much easier than storing electricity. In relatively dense areas with district heating, you can even establish storage that retains heat

by olau 4y ago

Storing heat is actually much easier than storing electricity. In relatively dense areas with district heating, you can even establish storage that retains heat from the summer. Yes, it requires investments and scaling up of the production of these solutions - the reason these investments haven't been made yet, is plainly that it wasn't deemed necessary yet. Continuing burning fossil fuels was cheaper. Why would gas be obligatory for fertilizer production? I've dug into some industrial uses in my country (bakeries for instance), and in all the cases I looked into, gas was not actually required, just a bit cheaper or more convenient. If you put a tax on gas, all of them would switch within a few years. It looks like you need hydrogen for fertilizer, so I guess switching to (more expensive) hydrolysis would be the solution there.

Xylakant 4y ago
Gas is needed for fertilizer production because it's one of the input resources - Haber-Bosch capture of ammonia (nitrogen) requires a source of hydrogen and that's usually natural gas since it's rich in hydrogen. As such, lumping in the gas that's used for fertilizer production in with gas used for energy production makes limited sense - it's not fungible and can't just replaced with nuclear (or any other) energy. In the future, it would be possible to use hydrogen generated via hydrolysis, but we're pretty far off doing that on industrial scale.
- wahern 4y ago
  Relatedly, Russia is a top exporter of fertilizers: https://thehill.com/policy/3513855-why-the-fertilizer-market-could-be-russias-hidden-leverage https://thehill.com/policy/3513855-why-the-fertilizer-market... Interestingly, while over the past 10-15 years the U.S. condemned Germany for importing natural gas from Russia, the U.S. was methodically displacing some of its domestic fertilizer production with imports, a substantial fraction coming from Russia and Belarus--in particular, 12% of U.S. potash consumption comes from Russia, and 93% imported overall. See https://farmdocdaily.illinois.edu/2022/03/war-in-ukraine-and-its-effect-on-fertilizer-exports-to-brazil-and-the-us.html https://farmdocdaily.illinois.edu/2022/03/war-in-ukraine-and.... It seems small but it turned out to be a significant direct short-term lever, and presumably a much bigger lever with many other countries; and that's not even considering indirect leverage from Russia's ability to manipulate global market prices and thus U.S. domestic prices. Perhaps the only thing that hits harder than an increase in energy prices is an increase in food prices. (OTOH, for all I know the USDA, etc, may have actually been diligently working to minimize foreign dependence without being too disruptive--politically or economically--and the current percentages and source country distributions were the best they could accomplish.)
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    > 12% of U.S. potash consumption comes from Russia, and 93% imported overall Sounds like the Canadians wanted to charge too much and US finally gave in and sourced an intercontinental supply. I don't think USA is at risk of losing a secure potash supply. Rail transport from Saskatchewan is too cheap into agri America.
- AstralStorm 4y ago
  There are hydrogen and methane generation processes that also do some small carbon capture, to manufacture ammonia ultimately. The problem is that they require too much heat and electricity and currently are not yet viable. They would be viable in a slightly oversized grid with at least 75% renewables.
Scoundreller 4y ago
More likely your domestic fertilizer production will shutdown and you’ll import it from places that don’t tax natural gas as highly, unless you have ultra-cheap electricity. This isn’t a horrid idea if you don’t have access to piped gas (LNG = hard to ship, nitrogen salts = easy). Having said that, I am all for replacing income taxes with carbon taxes. Taxing people’s work, skill and effort should be avoided at all costs.

by olau 4y ago

Xylakant 4y ago

Gas is needed for fertilizer production because it's one of the input resources - Haber-Bosch capture of ammonia (nitrogen) requires a source of hydrogen and that's usually natural gas since it's rich in hydrogen. As such, lumping in the gas that's used for fertilizer production in with gas used for energy production makes limited sense - it's not fungible and can't just replaced with nuclear (or any other) energy. In the future, it would be possible to use hydrogen generated via hydrolysis, but we're pretty far off doing that on industrial scale.

wahern 4y ago
Relatedly, Russia is a top exporter of fertilizers: https://thehill.com/policy/3513855-why-the-fertilizer-market-could-be-russias-hidden-leverage https://thehill.com/policy/3513855-why-the-fertilizer-market... Interestingly, while over the past 10-15 years the U.S. condemned Germany for importing natural gas from Russia, the U.S. was methodically displacing some of its domestic fertilizer production with imports, a substantial fraction coming from Russia and Belarus--in particular, 12% of U.S. potash consumption comes from Russia, and 93% imported overall. See https://farmdocdaily.illinois.edu/2022/03/war-in-ukraine-and-its-effect-on-fertilizer-exports-to-brazil-and-the-us.html https://farmdocdaily.illinois.edu/2022/03/war-in-ukraine-and.... It seems small but it turned out to be a significant direct short-term lever, and presumably a much bigger lever with many other countries; and that's not even considering indirect leverage from Russia's ability to manipulate global market prices and thus U.S. domestic prices. Perhaps the only thing that hits harder than an increase in energy prices is an increase in food prices. (OTOH, for all I know the USDA, etc, may have actually been diligently working to minimize foreign dependence without being too disruptive--politically or economically--and the current percentages and source country distributions were the best they could accomplish.)
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  > 12% of U.S. potash consumption comes from Russia, and 93% imported overall Sounds like the Canadians wanted to charge too much and US finally gave in and sourced an intercontinental supply. I don't think USA is at risk of losing a secure potash supply. Rail transport from Saskatchewan is too cheap into agri America.
AstralStorm 4y ago
There are hydrogen and methane generation processes that also do some small carbon capture, to manufacture ammonia ultimately. The problem is that they require too much heat and electricity and currently are not yet viable. They would be viable in a slightly oversized grid with at least 75% renewables.

Scoundreller 4y ago

More likely your domestic fertilizer production will shutdown and you’ll import it from places that don’t tax natural gas as highly, unless you have ultra-cheap electricity. This isn’t a horrid idea if you don’t have access to piped gas (LNG = hard to ship, nitrogen salts = easy). Having said that, I am all for replacing income taxes with carbon taxes. Taxing people’s work, skill and effort should be avoided at all costs.