4 ms·

Enough for Trump to call them on it 3 years ago? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FfJv9QYrlwg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FfJv9QYrlwg

by asguy 4y ago

t6jvcereio 4y ago
Wait, is this the same Trump who said he was getting the USA out of NATO, or is this a different Trump?
- asguy 4y ago
  Why are you bringing up something unrelated as a gotcha for something nobody is commenting about? This is related to Germany energy policy. Trump brought up the danger of depending on Putin’s Russia to the Germans, and they laughed at him. They aren’t laughing much now. What you should be asking is: How was Germany so dumb that Trump saw it, but they didn’t?
  - rnk 4y ago
    Because it's a good, realistic comparison. Pointing out Germany was too dependent on Russia for natural gas - good point. Saying the US would drop out of NATO - not a good strategy for stability. If you wanted to point out a Trump comment that everyone saw as a mistake at the time (but that doesn't add to the conversation), give the examples where he made dangerous suggestions to treat covid. Talking about nato seems fairly relevant. Tons of people saw Germany was putting itself in a bad position. Every US administration since the initial direction was set said that.
    - nradov 4y ago
      President Trump talked about dropping out of NATO specifically because Germany (along with several other European countries) had broken their treaty obligations and had failed to spend the required 2% of GDP on defense. They were essentially getting free protection from the USA, France, and the UK without doing anything in return. And the threat worked! Germany did significantly boost defense spending (although still not quite to the 2% target).
      - MagnumOpus 4y ago
        The 2% was and is not a treaty obligation.
        google234123 4y ago
        All NATO countries agreed in 2006 to 2%. It's an indicator of a country’s will to actually contribute to NATO
        nradov 4y ago
        All NATO members agreed to a 2% minimum within the context of the existing treaty. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_67655.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_67655.htm If Germany or any other country is unwilling to meet that treaty obligation then they should simply withdraw from the alliance rather than freeloading on more responsible countries.
  - formerkrogemp 4y ago
    I don't think Trump is an authoritative source on anything.
  - t6jvcereio 4y ago
    > What you should be asking is: How was Germany so dumb that Trump saw it, but they didn’t? I would be asking that, if we were talking about someone who's reliably correct. But since we're talking about someone who's held every position and it's opposite on any given subject, I think it's quite obvious what's going on. It's called survivorship bias.
    - TMWNN 4y ago
      >I would be asking that, if we were talking about someone who's reliably correct. But since we're talking about someone who's held every position and it's opposite on any given subject, I think it's quite obvious what's going on. It's called survivorship bias. Put it this way. Trump was right and the Germans were wrong on the biggest German crisis of the past 75 years, one that now poses an existential threat to the German (and thus European) economy and social polity. Even were Trump wrong and Germany right on everything else, how much would that matter given the scale and, more importantly, 100% self-inflicted nature of this crisis for Germany?
      - t6jvcereio 4y ago
        Put it this way. The German leadership is corrupt, their populace are naive green zealots, and Trump is a random number generator. Why is it that of these three facts youre fixated on the last one? There's lot of random number generators out there.
        TMWNN 4y ago
        Ah yes, the "Trump says everything and anything" argument, second only to the "Even a broken clock is right twice a day" perennial. You will be surely able to list the many times in which Trump advocated for * less German/European NATO spending * greater German/European dependence on Russian gas ? Let me repeat: >Trump was right and the Germans were wrong on the biggest German crisis of the past 75 years
        t6jvcereio 4y ago
  - t6jvcereio 4y ago
    They're not unrelated, there's both the exact opposite bet on the same issue: should the west take Russia at face value? Saying "Germany needs to look after it's energy independence" is synonym with "the west cant trust Russia", and saying "I'm taking the USA out of NATO" is synonym with "the west can trust Russia". So he just claimed two opposite views and his fan it's pick and choose.
    - mrep 4y ago
      > "I'm taking the USA out of NATO" is synonym with "the west can trust Russia". Trump was all over the place so it's hard to know what his exact positions were but he definitely bitched about European countries for not maintaining the NATO spending goal of 2 percent of economic output [0] which seemed to be his main gripe with NATO from what I remember. One quote from the article: "Mr. Trump appeared especially annoyed, officials in the meeting said, with Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany and her country’s military spending of 1 percent of its gross domestic product." [0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/us/politics/nato-president-trump.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/us/politics/nato-presiden...
    - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
      No, "I'm taking the USA out of NATO" was synonymous with "I'm tired of you free riding on our military - start contributing to your own defense". I'm very much not a Trump fan, but no, I do not agree with your interpretation of the threat to take the US out of NATO.
      - t6jvcereio 4y ago
        > free riding on our military Small minded. The purpose of NATO is to serve as a force multiplier. It's not that Europe benefits at the cost of the USA. Both benefit.
        AnimalMuppet 4y ago
        The purpose of NATO is to serve as mutual defense. If it's mutual defense with a bunch of nearly unarmed countries, how "mutual" is it? (Yes, you could consider having other countries coming to your defense to be multiplying your force. But if they don't have much of a force of their own, how much "multiplying" are they doing?)
  - glogla 4y ago
    > What you should be asking is: How was Germany so dumb that Trump saw it, but they didn’t? They weren't dumb. They were probably ok with helping Putin invade few more countries in Easter Europe - after all, the Germans themselves are quite far and safe, and possibly also care about money more than human lives.
- golemiprague 4y ago
- glogla 4y ago
  Broken clock, twice a day?
durnygbur 4y ago
ohh... these smug corrupted smirking faces. Now Ukrainians are paying for your gas, you cunts. The Three Seas Initiative was the way to go at that time, energy policy wise.
mikeyouse 4y ago
Enough for Obama to call them on it 4 years before that; https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-eu-summit/obama-tells-eu-to-do-more-to-cut-reliance-on-russian-gas-idUSBREA2P0W220140326 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-eu-summit/obama-tells... And many US Government officials and their proxies have been sounding the alarms for years; https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/interview/senior-obama-official-nord-stream-2-and-brexit-may-weaken-eu-energy-security/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/interview/senior-oba... And Biden temporarily waived sanctions on the pipeline as a bargaining chip to help prevent the invasion of Ukraine, they were snapped back once Russia invaded; https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/if-russia-invades-ukraine-there-will-be-no-nord-stream-2-biden-says-2022-02-07/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/if-russia-invades-uk... Nobody in American politics thought it was a good idea, because it clearly wasn't, but the allure of dirt-cheap energy was too much to pass up.
leonroy 4y ago
The video is literally Trump in 2018 calling out Germany on their dependence on Russian gas whilst they smirk at him. His words: > “Germany will become totally dependent on Russian energy if it does not immediately change course. Here in the Western Hemisphere, we are committed to maintaining our independence from the encroachment of expansionist foreign powers.” Even the Washington Post wrote about it at the time: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/09/25/trump-accused-germany-becoming-totally-dependent-russian-energy-un-germans-just-smirked/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/09/25/trump-accuse...
- knodi123 4y ago
  > His words: > ... "independence from the encroachment of expansionist foreign powers." Well, maybe not "his" words. But they are definitely words that came out of his mouth.
- rvz 4y ago
  Tells you how brainless the media was and were just after headline clickbait despite Trump echoing the same warnings that Obama said in 2014. Now everyone can see how silly Germany is looking after not listening to what both Obama and Trump already saw on their dependency on Russian gas. I guess Trump had the last laugh on that one.
_ea1k 4y ago
What policies was he referring to there? From what I recall, a big part of the German focus at the time was the shift to renewables, with the goal of reducing dependence on Russian gas imports. Were those the policies that he wanted them to end? Or was it something else?
- Krasnol 4y ago
  It was missing LNG imports to Germany.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
TMWNN 4y ago
Among the comedians on camera is Heiko Maas, the German foreign minister, now enjoying a quiet retirement back home in Saarland. I somehow doubt that he will have to worry about paying energy bills (or, heck, just getting enough gas/electricity at all regardless of cost) this winter.

Enough for Trump to call them on it 3 years ago? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FfJv9QYrlwg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FfJv9QYrlwg

by asguy 4y ago

Enough for Trump to call them on it 3 years ago? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FfJv9QYrlwg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FfJv9QYrlwg

t6jvcereio 4y ago

Wait, is this the same Trump who said he was getting the USA out of NATO, or is this a different Trump?

asguy 4y ago
Why are you bringing up something unrelated as a gotcha for something nobody is commenting about? This is related to Germany energy policy. Trump brought up the danger of depending on Putin’s Russia to the Germans, and they laughed at him. They aren’t laughing much now. What you should be asking is: How was Germany so dumb that Trump saw it, but they didn’t?
- rnk 4y ago
  Because it's a good, realistic comparison. Pointing out Germany was too dependent on Russia for natural gas - good point. Saying the US would drop out of NATO - not a good strategy for stability. If you wanted to point out a Trump comment that everyone saw as a mistake at the time (but that doesn't add to the conversation), give the examples where he made dangerous suggestions to treat covid. Talking about nato seems fairly relevant. Tons of people saw Germany was putting itself in a bad position. Every US administration since the initial direction was set said that.
  - nradov 4y ago
    President Trump talked about dropping out of NATO specifically because Germany (along with several other European countries) had broken their treaty obligations and had failed to spend the required 2% of GDP on defense. They were essentially getting free protection from the USA, France, and the UK without doing anything in return. And the threat worked! Germany did significantly boost defense spending (although still not quite to the 2% target).
    - MagnumOpus 4y ago
      The 2% was and is not a treaty obligation.
      - google234123 4y ago
        All NATO countries agreed in 2006 to 2%. It's an indicator of a country’s will to actually contribute to NATO
      - nradov 4y ago
        All NATO members agreed to a 2% minimum within the context of the existing treaty. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_67655.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_67655.htm If Germany or any other country is unwilling to meet that treaty obligation then they should simply withdraw from the alliance rather than freeloading on more responsible countries.
- formerkrogemp 4y ago
  I don't think Trump is an authoritative source on anything.
- t6jvcereio 4y ago
  > What you should be asking is: How was Germany so dumb that Trump saw it, but they didn’t? I would be asking that, if we were talking about someone who's reliably correct. But since we're talking about someone who's held every position and it's opposite on any given subject, I think it's quite obvious what's going on. It's called survivorship bias.
  - TMWNN 4y ago
    >I would be asking that, if we were talking about someone who's reliably correct. But since we're talking about someone who's held every position and it's opposite on any given subject, I think it's quite obvious what's going on. It's called survivorship bias. Put it this way. Trump was right and the Germans were wrong on the biggest German crisis of the past 75 years, one that now poses an existential threat to the German (and thus European) economy and social polity. Even were Trump wrong and Germany right on everything else, how much would that matter given the scale and, more importantly, 100% self-inflicted nature of this crisis for Germany?
    - t6jvcereio 4y ago
      Put it this way. The German leadership is corrupt, their populace are naive green zealots, and Trump is a random number generator. Why is it that of these three facts youre fixated on the last one? There's lot of random number generators out there.
      - TMWNN 4y ago
        Ah yes, the "Trump says everything and anything" argument, second only to the "Even a broken clock is right twice a day" perennial. You will be surely able to list the many times in which Trump advocated for * less German/European NATO spending * greater German/European dependence on Russian gas ? Let me repeat: >Trump was right and the Germans were wrong on the biggest German crisis of the past 75 years
        t6jvcereio 4y ago
- t6jvcereio 4y ago
  They're not unrelated, there's both the exact opposite bet on the same issue: should the west take Russia at face value? Saying "Germany needs to look after it's energy independence" is synonym with "the west cant trust Russia", and saying "I'm taking the USA out of NATO" is synonym with "the west can trust Russia". So he just claimed two opposite views and his fan it's pick and choose.
  - mrep 4y ago
    > "I'm taking the USA out of NATO" is synonym with "the west can trust Russia". Trump was all over the place so it's hard to know what his exact positions were but he definitely bitched about European countries for not maintaining the NATO spending goal of 2 percent of economic output [0] which seemed to be his main gripe with NATO from what I remember. One quote from the article: "Mr. Trump appeared especially annoyed, officials in the meeting said, with Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany and her country’s military spending of 1 percent of its gross domestic product." [0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/us/politics/nato-president-trump.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/us/politics/nato-presiden...
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    No, "I'm taking the USA out of NATO" was synonymous with "I'm tired of you free riding on our military - start contributing to your own defense". I'm very much not a Trump fan, but no, I do not agree with your interpretation of the threat to take the US out of NATO.
    - t6jvcereio 4y ago
      > free riding on our military Small minded. The purpose of NATO is to serve as a force multiplier. It's not that Europe benefits at the cost of the USA. Both benefit.
      - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
        The purpose of NATO is to serve as mutual defense. If it's mutual defense with a bunch of nearly unarmed countries, how "mutual" is it? (Yes, you could consider having other countries coming to your defense to be multiplying your force. But if they don't have much of a force of their own, how much "multiplying" are they doing?)
- glogla 4y ago
  > What you should be asking is: How was Germany so dumb that Trump saw it, but they didn’t? They weren't dumb. They were probably ok with helping Putin invade few more countries in Easter Europe - after all, the Germans themselves are quite far and safe, and possibly also care about money more than human lives.
golemiprague 4y ago
glogla 4y ago
Broken clock, twice a day?

durnygbur 4y ago

ohh... these smug corrupted smirking faces. Now Ukrainians are paying for your gas, you cunts. The Three Seas Initiative was the way to go at that time, energy policy wise.

mikeyouse 4y ago

Enough for Obama to call them on it 4 years before that; https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-eu-summit/obama-tells-eu-to-do-more-to-cut-reliance-on-russian-gas-idUSBREA2P0W220140326 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-eu-summit/obama-tells... And many US Government officials and their proxies have been sounding the alarms for years; https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/interview/senior-obama-official-nord-stream-2-and-brexit-may-weaken-eu-energy-security/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/interview/senior-oba... And Biden temporarily waived sanctions on the pipeline as a bargaining chip to help prevent the invasion of Ukraine, they were snapped back once Russia invaded; https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/if-russia-invades-ukraine-there-will-be-no-nord-stream-2-biden-says-2022-02-07/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/if-russia-invades-uk... Nobody in American politics thought it was a good idea, because it clearly wasn't, but the allure of dirt-cheap energy was too much to pass up.

leonroy 4y ago

The video is literally Trump in 2018 calling out Germany on their dependence on Russian gas whilst they smirk at him. His words: > “Germany will become totally dependent on Russian energy if it does not immediately change course. Here in the Western Hemisphere, we are committed to maintaining our independence from the encroachment of expansionist foreign powers.” Even the Washington Post wrote about it at the time: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/09/25/trump-accused-germany-becoming-totally-dependent-russian-energy-un-germans-just-smirked/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/09/25/trump-accuse...

knodi123 4y ago
> His words: > ... "independence from the encroachment of expansionist foreign powers." Well, maybe not "his" words. But they are definitely words that came out of his mouth.
rvz 4y ago
Tells you how brainless the media was and were just after headline clickbait despite Trump echoing the same warnings that Obama said in 2014. Now everyone can see how silly Germany is looking after not listening to what both Obama and Trump already saw on their dependency on Russian gas. I guess Trump had the last laugh on that one.

_ea1k 4y ago

What policies was he referring to there? From what I recall, a big part of the German focus at the time was the shift to renewables, with the goal of reducing dependence on Russian gas imports. Were those the policies that he wanted them to end? Or was it something else?

Krasnol 4y ago
It was missing LNG imports to Germany.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

TMWNN 4y ago

Among the comedians on camera is Heiko Maas, the German foreign minister, now enjoying a quiet retirement back home in Saarland. I somehow doubt that he will have to worry about paying energy bills (or, heck, just getting enough gas/electricity at all regardless of cost) this winter.