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The story I heard on this is that the US "asked" Khan to play ball on Ukraine/anti-Russia and he basically said no, came out with a statement like "Are we your

The story I heard on this is that the US "asked" Khan to play ball on Ukraine/anti-Russia and he basically said no, came out with a statement like "Are we your slaves?" https://www.ibtimes.com/are-we-your-slaves-pakistans-khan-slams-western-urging-condemn-russian-invasion-3426183 https://www.ibtimes.com/are-we-your-slaves-pakistans-khan-sl... and about 2 weeks later he was removed from office. There's no concrete evidence the US was connected to regime change here but it sure looks that way and it wouldn't be the first time.

selimthegrim 4y ago
Ukraine was actually pro-Pakistan on the Kashmir issue and sold them battle tanks. He needs to fire whoever in the Foreign Office advised him to do this.
- ShivShankaran 4y ago
  is this true? I would like to read more about it.
  - selimthegrim 4y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan–Ukraine_relations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan–Ukraine_relations https://mobile.twitter.com/kanchangupta/status/1497071498825068544 https://mobile.twitter.com/kanchangupta/status/1497071498825...
    - ShivShankaran 4y ago
      thank you. Good to learn about something I never knew. Probably one of the reason why Indian-related subreddit were agaisnt ukraine but the reddit admins came down and deleted all subreddits that were critical of war, even the massively popular ones
      - prvit 4y ago
        > deleted all subreddits that were critical of war hmmmmm Or wait, are you confusing subreddits with threads and admins with subreddit mods? That’s the only way your comment doesn’t read as downright insane.
        ShivShankaran 4y ago
        no, they outright deleted subreddits. Some of these subreddits were long criticized for having genocide material but reddit refused to remove them for "freedom of speech". When they put up a banner criticizing the war, reddit admins removed the subreddit outright. here is the time article about it https://time.com/6160519/reddit-international-hate-speech-ban/ https://time.com/6160519/reddit-international-hate-speech-ba... They refused to ban either subreddit for 2 years but a week after they criticized the war, they were both deleted.
        prvit 4y ago
        And which war were these subreddits critical of?
        binnerhn01 4y ago
        I got IP banned for my comments on HN! . These subreddits were against the russia-ukraine war and were stating that NATO pushed them. more fun fact. typing "zelensky Pan" stops all auto-complete in google since people are searching for "zelensky pandora" but "Putin pan" brings out all pandora papers about it even though Zelensky is twice as much in pandora papers as Putin. Even google has censored all negative news about zelensky in it's autocomplete.
        prvit 4y ago
        >I got IP banned for my comments on HN! . Looking at your submission history, I'm shocked that it's taken this long. Dang must be on a holiday. >These subreddits were against the russia-ukraine war and were stating that NATO pushed them. So, what you're actually saying is that they were actually not against the Russian war of aggression? Your suggestion that they were simultaneously against the war and also trying to justify it doesn't really add up.
guelo 4y ago
At some point Pakistanis are going to have to open their eyes to how their politicians use the US as a convenient excuse to blame for all their problems.
- lifeplusplus 4y ago
  not an excuse if it's probably true.. same thing happened when Iraq was invaded, Bush famously said you are either with us or against us
  - ethbr0 4y ago
    Granted, at that point it was an open secret that the ISI had spent decades recruiting and funding armed and violent Islamic groups. The enemy of India is my friend, etc.
    - lifeplusplus 4y ago
      I believe both countries' govts engage in despicable acts
      - sg47 4y ago
        Yes like the time India trained terrorists to go into Pakistan and attack civilians. Don't both sides this.
        lifeplusplus 4y ago
        I've read reports that literally say that and that India and Iran both engage in such activities but driven by different motivations, Iran uses the threat as bargaining chip, i.e. PK opposes something in UN against Iran, regular people pay the price and current govt looks weak unable to provide security. Similarly India is driven by long term goals such as eliminating tourist economy, supporting separation movements, and other similar nefarious goals. Not saying PK is an exception, it'd be willful ignorance to highlight one country as an outlier when all countries in that region are extensively involved in causing mayhem in other countries through means of espionage and secret funding - regular people dying is just tossed as collateral damage.
lsllc 4y ago
Heh, "play ball" -- I see what you did there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imran_Khan#Cricket_career https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imran_Khan#Cricket_career
CommanderData 4y ago
It stinks of interference and that's a pretty big statement to make. No surprises if he's pissed off a few.
tibbydudeza 4y ago
Much like in Egypt (bye bye to the Muslim Brotherhood aligned democratically elected PM) the army in Pakistan get a lot of US $$$ "assistance".
- monetus 4y ago
  Didn't morsi try to dissolve the judiciary?
  - croes 4y ago
    And now it's better in Egypt?
    - daemoens 4y ago
      Of course it isn't but dissolving the judiciary still wouldn't have been a good thing.
    - int_19h 4y ago
      It's not an uncommon thing for a justifiable uprising to end up in a place worse than before. It doesn't necessarily mean that it was instigated from the outside for that or some other purpose.
      - guelo 4y ago
        Not liking the results of democracy is not a justifiable uprising.
        int_19h 4y ago
        It is when said democracy cracks down on human rights.
        guelo 4y ago
        What human rights did Morsi crack down on? I could list a dozen human rights that Sisi has cracked down on.
tenpies 4y ago
Khan is definitely not an American puppet, but I don't think the Biden administration has any grip on Pakistan at this time compared to before. In that region, Biden surrendered Afghanistan to the Taliban, but they also effectively surrendered Pakistan to China some time ago. Pakistan is much more aligned with the BRICS, although they will gladly entertain the US for funding/weapons without delivering anything. That said, if one is suspicious of American technology being weaponized for foreign policy, then Poland will be the place to watch next year. The Biden administration has every clearly told Poland they want a regime change. The EU is also on board.
- fatherzine 4y ago
  US has plenty of power to enact regime change, ie destabilize entire countries and/or regions. What the US manifestly lacks is power to bring up a decent replacement regime to provide order around a set of resonant moral values. And so chaos slowly engulfs the world as the sun sets over the American Empire. Chaos age, until the next Empire.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ShivShankaran 4y ago
It was absolutely this. US funds the pakistan army and a high level meeting happened where they threatened to pull out funds if they didnt dispose off Khan. We have a saying that most countries have an army but in Pakistan the army has a country. Gaddafi was killed and his sons were murdered in front of him because he threatened petro dollar. before that he was given red carpet in france and even camped in sarcozy lawn. now Russia and China threaten the petro dollar and I am worried what the US is going to do.
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  Sitting in India (presumably) what evidence have you got for this?
  - mercy_dude 4y ago
    What does the commented being in India have to do with what he said? It is absolutely true Khan didn’t want to cancel the Russia trip when it happened the day of the strike.
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    Direct funding of Pakistani military forces in recent years is indeed unsubstantiated, but occurred as recently as 2018. We still provide some significant funding to Pakistan for humanitarian and development (i.e. civilian) efforts. This information is widely available online. So GP is wrong to be so confident and absolute about their claim that we still fund the Pakistani army, but we do indeed give money to their government, and the Pakistani government is not independent of its army. It’s a messy situation. Just trying to provide a bit of a more nuanced view before this heavy-handed comment you’re replying to is dismissed outright.
- throw_m239339 4y ago
  > Gaddafi was killed and his sons were murdered in front of him because he threatened petro dollar. before that he was given red carpet in france and even camped in sarcozy lawn. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Libyan_financing_in_the_2007_French_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Libyan_financing_in_th... Sarkozy got rid of an inconvenient witness... (the former french president has been indicted for a series of financial crimes related to Libya since).
asdajksah2123 4y ago
That's the propaganda Khan, who was extremely unpopular with both the army and the public, was pushing. The real reason his PM career was untenable was because (a) he pissed off the Pakistani military by threatening to unilaterally replace the military leader, whose support was the only reason he became PM in the first place, and (b) his party appointed some virtual unknown and definite incompetent (who was a friend of his wife's) as the leader of the Punjab province which has over 50% of the population of Pakistan. His latter action also angered members of his own party and members of his alliance that saw their own political careers threatened because he took such politically poor actions with half the country's population. Finally, what would have been astonishing is if Imran Khan (or anyone for that matter), would have completed his term. He would have been the first PM to do so in Pakistan's history. It really doesn't require a conspiracy theory centered around America to explain something that is the norm in Pakistan.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  > Khan, who was extremely unpopular with both the army and the public, If everybody hates him, then censoring him is pointless. I don't know anything about any of these people or parties but what you're saying doesn't pass my sniff test.
  - asdajksah2123 4y ago
    Censoring him was dumb (this isn't the first time the succeeding govt censored him). They've really made a hash of it and allowed him to become a martyr. He was unpopular. Here's a poll from when the no-confidence vote passed (Bloomberg referencing Gallup Pakistan polling). https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-13/majority-of-pakistanis-supported-imran-khan-s-ouster-poll-shows https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-13/majority-... That being said, the only thing that matters isn't just overall support. The groups supporting also matter. And even though Khan had minority support, he has support among the extreme religious right of Pakistan, who are organized enough to shut down the country and motivated enough that they would do that even if it costs damage and lives.
    - 4y ago
abdullahkhalids 4y ago
We will never know the truth. But it has to be said that the opposition parties that brought about the vote of no-confidence had tried to muster the strength to do so a year prior and failed. They had restarted to talk about a No-confidence vote months before the Ukraine/Russia war and had started to slowly form the alliance to do so [1]. [1] Jan 13 https://www.dawn.com/news/1669107 https://www.dawn.com/news/1669107 The vote happened early April
paxys 4y ago
Third world countries blame "US/CIA interference" for their domestic problems so often I wish we were really that competent in projecting power across the world. Do people really think western powers care that much about Imran Khan's opinion on Russia-Ukraine to pull off a regime change in one of the largest and most unstable countries (that too with nuclear weapons) in the world? It's a tactic for such politicians and countries to make themselves feel more important on the global stage, nothing more. Pakistan has always been run by its military. Politicians who get out of line quickly get deposed/exiled/assassinated. There is nothing new or surprising with the latest development.
- serial_dev 4y ago
  It's because US interference is actually pretty common. Here is Wikipedia on this topic, which is actually one of the more "US intelligence friendly" sources out there: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in... This list is endless and shocking. Pakistan is a big and important country, so their position is actually important. Furthermore, for any empire, it's vital that it gets other smaller countries in line, even if the small country's position would be irrelevant. The way I see it is that most countries' leaders will always be both popular and unpopular in a significant portion of the country so it is always possible to frame a revolution/coup/insurgence as either a great thing or a bad thing. I don't know what happened in this case, and in complicated scenarios like these, there are always many factors and forces at play, but it's certainly not unreasonable to think that foreign powers gave a little push in order to see the outcome they wanted in the region.
  - InitialLastName 4y ago
    > Pakistan is a big and important country, so their position is actually important. To further your point: Pakistan has the 5th largest population in the world, has complicated relationships (including contested borders 20 miles from its capital) with #2 and #1, and has a weak enough economy that a little money can go a long way. I would be shocked if the US weren't applying any force to its politics.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
gautamdivgi 4y ago
How much sway does the US have in Pakistan today? They are aligned economically and militarily with China. It’s an honest question. I know US bashing is popular but didn’t Pakistan align with China to move out of the US sphere of influence?
- chihuahua 4y ago
  I think if the U.S. had any influence in Pakistan, they would have used it before 2021 to stop the incessant support by Pakistan for the Taliban in Afghanistan. And they would have also used it to have Pakistan hand over bin Laden who was being sheltered in Abbotabad, within walking distance of a Pakistani military academy. If the U.S. government got zero cooperation from the Pakistani government in those areas, I doubt they have the influence to get rid of the prime minister over some insignificant matter like whatever Khan did.
deleted 4y ago
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addicted 4y ago
The most hilarious thing is that a conspiracy theory that Imran Khan created days before he was ousted with absolutely no evidence at all is supposed to be given any value because he lost a no confidence vote. Like every other predecessor in the history of the country. The reality is that Imran Khan had been anti-USA for years before that. If the U.S. was so worried about Pakistan they would maybe have done something in the year prior where he was eating against the US for his political support. That whar he’s been doing for half a decade. It makes literally no sense at all.

selimthegrim 4y ago

Ukraine was actually pro-Pakistan on the Kashmir issue and sold them battle tanks. He needs to fire whoever in the Foreign Office advised him to do this.

ShivShankaran 4y ago
is this true? I would like to read more about it.
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan–Ukraine_relations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan–Ukraine_relations https://mobile.twitter.com/kanchangupta/status/1497071498825068544 https://mobile.twitter.com/kanchangupta/status/1497071498825...
  - ShivShankaran 4y ago
    thank you. Good to learn about something I never knew. Probably one of the reason why Indian-related subreddit were agaisnt ukraine but the reddit admins came down and deleted all subreddits that were critical of war, even the massively popular ones
    - prvit 4y ago
      > deleted all subreddits that were critical of war hmmmmm Or wait, are you confusing subreddits with threads and admins with subreddit mods? That’s the only way your comment doesn’t read as downright insane.
      - ShivShankaran 4y ago
        no, they outright deleted subreddits. Some of these subreddits were long criticized for having genocide material but reddit refused to remove them for "freedom of speech". When they put up a banner criticizing the war, reddit admins removed the subreddit outright. here is the time article about it https://time.com/6160519/reddit-international-hate-speech-ban/ https://time.com/6160519/reddit-international-hate-speech-ba... They refused to ban either subreddit for 2 years but a week after they criticized the war, they were both deleted.
        prvit 4y ago
        And which war were these subreddits critical of?
        binnerhn01 4y ago
        I got IP banned for my comments on HN! . These subreddits were against the russia-ukraine war and were stating that NATO pushed them. more fun fact. typing "zelensky Pan" stops all auto-complete in google since people are searching for "zelensky pandora" but "Putin pan" brings out all pandora papers about it even though Zelensky is twice as much in pandora papers as Putin. Even google has censored all negative news about zelensky in it's autocomplete.
        prvit 4y ago
        >I got IP banned for my comments on HN! . Looking at your submission history, I'm shocked that it's taken this long. Dang must be on a holiday. >These subreddits were against the russia-ukraine war and were stating that NATO pushed them. So, what you're actually saying is that they were actually not against the Russian war of aggression? Your suggestion that they were simultaneously against the war and also trying to justify it doesn't really add up.

guelo 4y ago

At some point Pakistanis are going to have to open their eyes to how their politicians use the US as a convenient excuse to blame for all their problems.

lifeplusplus 4y ago
not an excuse if it's probably true.. same thing happened when Iraq was invaded, Bush famously said you are either with us or against us
- ethbr0 4y ago
  Granted, at that point it was an open secret that the ISI had spent decades recruiting and funding armed and violent Islamic groups. The enemy of India is my friend, etc.
  - lifeplusplus 4y ago
    I believe both countries' govts engage in despicable acts
    - sg47 4y ago
      Yes like the time India trained terrorists to go into Pakistan and attack civilians. Don't both sides this.
      - lifeplusplus 4y ago
        I've read reports that literally say that and that India and Iran both engage in such activities but driven by different motivations, Iran uses the threat as bargaining chip, i.e. PK opposes something in UN against Iran, regular people pay the price and current govt looks weak unable to provide security. Similarly India is driven by long term goals such as eliminating tourist economy, supporting separation movements, and other similar nefarious goals. Not saying PK is an exception, it'd be willful ignorance to highlight one country as an outlier when all countries in that region are extensively involved in causing mayhem in other countries through means of espionage and secret funding - regular people dying is just tossed as collateral damage.

lsllc 4y ago

Heh, "play ball" -- I see what you did there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imran_Khan#Cricket_career https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imran_Khan#Cricket_career

CommanderData 4y ago

It stinks of interference and that's a pretty big statement to make. No surprises if he's pissed off a few.

tibbydudeza 4y ago

Much like in Egypt (bye bye to the Muslim Brotherhood aligned democratically elected PM) the army in Pakistan get a lot of US $$$ "assistance".

monetus 4y ago
Didn't morsi try to dissolve the judiciary?
- croes 4y ago
  And now it's better in Egypt?
  - daemoens 4y ago
    Of course it isn't but dissolving the judiciary still wouldn't have been a good thing.
  - int_19h 4y ago
    It's not an uncommon thing for a justifiable uprising to end up in a place worse than before. It doesn't necessarily mean that it was instigated from the outside for that or some other purpose.
    - guelo 4y ago
      Not liking the results of democracy is not a justifiable uprising.
      - int_19h 4y ago
        It is when said democracy cracks down on human rights.
        guelo 4y ago
        What human rights did Morsi crack down on? I could list a dozen human rights that Sisi has cracked down on.

tenpies 4y ago

Khan is definitely not an American puppet, but I don't think the Biden administration has any grip on Pakistan at this time compared to before. In that region, Biden surrendered Afghanistan to the Taliban, but they also effectively surrendered Pakistan to China some time ago. Pakistan is much more aligned with the BRICS, although they will gladly entertain the US for funding/weapons without delivering anything. That said, if one is suspicious of American technology being weaponized for foreign policy, then Poland will be the place to watch next year. The Biden administration has every clearly told Poland they want a regime change. The EU is also on board.

fatherzine 4y ago
US has plenty of power to enact regime change, ie destabilize entire countries and/or regions. What the US manifestly lacks is power to bring up a decent replacement regime to provide order around a set of resonant moral values. And so chaos slowly engulfs the world as the sun sets over the American Empire. Chaos age, until the next Empire.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ShivShankaran 4y ago

It was absolutely this. US funds the pakistan army and a high level meeting happened where they threatened to pull out funds if they didnt dispose off Khan. We have a saying that most countries have an army but in Pakistan the army has a country. Gaddafi was killed and his sons were murdered in front of him because he threatened petro dollar. before that he was given red carpet in france and even camped in sarcozy lawn. now Russia and China threaten the petro dollar and I am worried what the US is going to do.

selimthegrim 4y ago
Sitting in India (presumably) what evidence have you got for this?
- mercy_dude 4y ago
  What does the commented being in India have to do with what he said? It is absolutely true Khan didn’t want to cancel the Russia trip when it happened the day of the strike.
- DiggyJohnson 4y ago
  Direct funding of Pakistani military forces in recent years is indeed unsubstantiated, but occurred as recently as 2018. We still provide some significant funding to Pakistan for humanitarian and development (i.e. civilian) efforts. This information is widely available online. So GP is wrong to be so confident and absolute about their claim that we still fund the Pakistani army, but we do indeed give money to their government, and the Pakistani government is not independent of its army. It’s a messy situation. Just trying to provide a bit of a more nuanced view before this heavy-handed comment you’re replying to is dismissed outright.
throw_m239339 4y ago
> Gaddafi was killed and his sons were murdered in front of him because he threatened petro dollar. before that he was given red carpet in france and even camped in sarcozy lawn. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Libyan_financing_in_the_2007_French_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Libyan_financing_in_th... Sarkozy got rid of an inconvenient witness... (the former french president has been indicted for a series of financial crimes related to Libya since).

asdajksah2123 4y ago

That's the propaganda Khan, who was extremely unpopular with both the army and the public, was pushing. The real reason his PM career was untenable was because (a) he pissed off the Pakistani military by threatening to unilaterally replace the military leader, whose support was the only reason he became PM in the first place, and (b) his party appointed some virtual unknown and definite incompetent (who was a friend of his wife's) as the leader of the Punjab province which has over 50% of the population of Pakistan. His latter action also angered members of his own party and members of his alliance that saw their own political careers threatened because he took such politically poor actions with half the country's population. Finally, what would have been astonishing is if Imran Khan (or anyone for that matter), would have completed his term. He would have been the first PM to do so in Pakistan's history. It really doesn't require a conspiracy theory centered around America to explain something that is the norm in Pakistan.

MichaelCollins 4y ago
> Khan, who was extremely unpopular with both the army and the public, If everybody hates him, then censoring him is pointless. I don't know anything about any of these people or parties but what you're saying doesn't pass my sniff test.
- asdajksah2123 4y ago
  Censoring him was dumb (this isn't the first time the succeeding govt censored him). They've really made a hash of it and allowed him to become a martyr. He was unpopular. Here's a poll from when the no-confidence vote passed (Bloomberg referencing Gallup Pakistan polling). https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-13/majority-of-pakistanis-supported-imran-khan-s-ouster-poll-shows https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-13/majority-... That being said, the only thing that matters isn't just overall support. The groups supporting also matter. And even though Khan had minority support, he has support among the extreme religious right of Pakistan, who are organized enough to shut down the country and motivated enough that they would do that even if it costs damage and lives.
  - 4y ago

abdullahkhalids 4y ago

We will never know the truth. But it has to be said that the opposition parties that brought about the vote of no-confidence had tried to muster the strength to do so a year prior and failed. They had restarted to talk about a No-confidence vote months before the Ukraine/Russia war and had started to slowly form the alliance to do so [1]. [1] Jan 13 https://www.dawn.com/news/1669107 https://www.dawn.com/news/1669107 The vote happened early April

paxys 4y ago

Third world countries blame "US/CIA interference" for their domestic problems so often I wish we were really that competent in projecting power across the world. Do people really think western powers care that much about Imran Khan's opinion on Russia-Ukraine to pull off a regime change in one of the largest and most unstable countries (that too with nuclear weapons) in the world? It's a tactic for such politicians and countries to make themselves feel more important on the global stage, nothing more. Pakistan has always been run by its military. Politicians who get out of line quickly get deposed/exiled/assassinated. There is nothing new or surprising with the latest development.

serial_dev 4y ago
It's because US interference is actually pretty common. Here is Wikipedia on this topic, which is actually one of the more "US intelligence friendly" sources out there: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in... This list is endless and shocking. Pakistan is a big and important country, so their position is actually important. Furthermore, for any empire, it's vital that it gets other smaller countries in line, even if the small country's position would be irrelevant. The way I see it is that most countries' leaders will always be both popular and unpopular in a significant portion of the country so it is always possible to frame a revolution/coup/insurgence as either a great thing or a bad thing. I don't know what happened in this case, and in complicated scenarios like these, there are always many factors and forces at play, but it's certainly not unreasonable to think that foreign powers gave a little push in order to see the outcome they wanted in the region.
- InitialLastName 4y ago
  > Pakistan is a big and important country, so their position is actually important. To further your point: Pakistan has the 5th largest population in the world, has complicated relationships (including contested borders 20 miles from its capital) with #2 and #1, and has a weak enough economy that a little money can go a long way. I would be shocked if the US weren't applying any force to its politics.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

gautamdivgi 4y ago

How much sway does the US have in Pakistan today? They are aligned economically and militarily with China. It’s an honest question. I know US bashing is popular but didn’t Pakistan align with China to move out of the US sphere of influence?

chihuahua 4y ago
I think if the U.S. had any influence in Pakistan, they would have used it before 2021 to stop the incessant support by Pakistan for the Taliban in Afghanistan. And they would have also used it to have Pakistan hand over bin Laden who was being sheltered in Abbotabad, within walking distance of a Pakistani military academy. If the U.S. government got zero cooperation from the Pakistani government in those areas, I doubt they have the influence to get rid of the prime minister over some insignificant matter like whatever Khan did.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

addicted 4y ago

The most hilarious thing is that a conspiracy theory that Imran Khan created days before he was ousted with absolutely no evidence at all is supposed to be given any value because he lost a no confidence vote. Like every other predecessor in the history of the country. The reality is that Imran Khan had been anti-USA for years before that. If the U.S. was so worried about Pakistan they would maybe have done something in the year prior where he was eating against the US for his political support. That whar he’s been doing for half a decade. It makes literally no sense at all.