6 ms·

It's not as if Apple didn't do everything they could to not do this. They were forced kicking and screaming by the EU to do this, and now they are trying to ta

by JohnGB 4y ago

It's not as if Apple didn't do everything they could to not do this. They were forced kicking and screaming by the EU to do this, and now they are trying to take credit for doing it.

jbuhbjlnjbn 4y ago
Let Apple embrace this forced change. Let them squeeze as much money as they can out of doing the right thing. This is no time to be petty, it's win-win.
- fezfight 4y ago
  It's not the right thing if its prohibitively expensive and inaccessible. The right thing is doing it without the inflated costs and expensive leased equipment. The right thing is not building your product in such a way as to require specialised equipment in the first place. This is effectively malicious compliance.
  - saagarjha 4y ago
    > The right thing is not building your product in such a way as to require specialised equipment in the first place. A product like this would not be popular because it would be thicker, heavier, and have worse specs.
    - fezfight 4y ago
      Since we've seen it done elsewhere, you'd need to probably show or at least explain where/how it can't be done for Apple.
    - munk-a 4y ago
      I think it's a tall order to argue that worse performance is a necessary requirement of repairability and height and weight are constantly obsessed over but very few people I've met actually care about it (and a fair number like the Mac interface but would be happy to trade height for keyboard improvements).
      - andy_ppp 4y ago
        The products we have today are the result not of what people say they want but what people actually buy.
        jfghi 4y ago
        Id claim it’s the products bought without clear alternative choices or understanding in the disposability of the designs. When I bought a MacBook Air around 2012, I didn’t expect the battery to be so remarkably difficult to replace as every laptop I had owned prior had removable batteries. Given the choice of a bigger computer with a replaceable battery/ram and probably better cooling, I’d choose that instantly.
        vel0city 4y ago
        > Given the choice of a bigger computer with a replaceable battery/ram and probably better cooling, I’d choose that instantly. So I take it that you immediately returned the MacBook Air and bought something which did have removable batteries?
        bfdm 4y ago
        This is really not the gotcha you seem to think it is. One is unlikely to learn how difficult repairs on a given device are until deep into the ownership cycle and well past any return window.
        vel0city 4y ago
        The poster claimed to prefer thicker laptops with replaceable batteries. There were lots of thicker laptops out there with obviously replaceable batteries. If it was such a priority, there were plenty of options. People are acting like they didn't have a choice but to choose a laptop with a battery glued in. No, the poster chose that machine at the time. There were laptops on the market with replaceable batteries, it just wasn't really their priority as they claim. If it was their priority, you'd think they would have bothered checking. If I claim having a lot of RAM is important for my machine, and then I buy a laptop with 2GB, I can't really go about arguing I didn't have a choice but to buy the 2GB machine. I just didn't bother investigating the specs and figure out there are machines much more suited for my demands. There were teardown reviews of the MBA almost instantly when it came out. The knowledge was there, if it was a priority they could have easily known. I'm arguing it wasn't really a priority, I'm sure they were plenty satisfied with that device the day they bought it. They went and choose a machine without bothering to consider if the battery was user serviceable. They might say now it's a priority, but when they paid for the machine it clearly wasn't.
    - jchw 4y ago
      That sounds like a picture perfect argument for industry-wide regulation. People don't want thicker phones, but if it must be done, then the market should compete to do it at the lowest overall cost.
      - saagarjha 4y ago
        Have you looked inside an iPhone? There’s barely any extra space at all for anything. Adding slots for people to take things apart, put in new commodity parts, and then seal the device up so it’s waterproof again are not zero-cost.
        smoldesu 4y ago
        Sure, but mind you Apple's phones have gotten thicker over the past 5 years (as have their laptops), and that certainly hasn't impacted sales in any meaningful capacity. People don't really care, and I don't buy the arguement that it's impossible for Apple to design things to be more repair-friendly. Simple changes like socketing the battery or limiting OEM component DRM would make all the difference, but Apple actively fights against any changes that would threaten their authority over the iPhone and it's aftermarket profitability. Maybe there is a technical limitation here, but I'm not convinced the world's largest engineering team can't fix it with their 100 billion dollars in liquid R&D funding.
        throwaway894345 4y ago
        Can you provide a source for "gotten thicker"? I'm looking at https://www.knowyourmobile.com/user-guides/iphone-size-comparison-chart/ https://www.knowyourmobile.com/user-guides/iphone-size-compa... and the iphone x (2017) was 7.7mm and the iphones 12 and 13 were both 7.3-7.4mm. Only the iPhone 11 increased thickness and even then only by a fraction of a millimeter.
        _carbyau_ 4y ago
        Edit: Unwelcome comment deleted.
    - p1necone 4y ago
      > A product like this would not be popular because it would be thicker, heavier, and have worse specs. This is not a statement you can just make with no evidence and expect people to take at face value. At least for laptops this is a myth. The Framework laptop has the same dimensions and weight as a Macbook air (give or take a few tenths of an inch on width/height but same thickness - I believe they kinda did this intentionally to call out Apple) and is fully repairable with individually replaceable parts. Many (most?) of the decisions that Apple make that make their systems less repairable are not things that meaningfully impact weight or size, it's just an excuse that they've been very successful in seeding in the minds of consumers.
    - WhyNotHugo 4y ago
      A 2021 Macbook is barely thinner or lighter than a Frame.work laptop. The difference is negligible. And the latter is made to be super easy to open and self service.
  - kepler1 4y ago
    No specialized equipment? So an iPhone / Mac has to be repairable with a consumer Phillips head screwdriver? Full size? Or is a T6 screw allowed? How about glue? Who is to make the call about what specialized equipment and level of expense is ok enough by you? If people are buying the phones for the features they offer and the way they're constructed, and they offer a repair path, what do you suggest we do now, to satisfy your criteria?
    - pzo 4y ago
      For starter they could use 0.1mm thicker glue pads so that they won’t break so easy. If anyone tried to change battery on iPhone then knows how easy they are to break then you have to resort to using dental floss or fishing line as an improvised saw to remove the battery. Seriously there is enough space to make it just 0.1mm thicker
      - bradleybuda 4y ago
        You can buy that phone. I don't want to, I'll keep buying the one they sell.
        andy_ppp 4y ago
        Exactly, they glue is that thick for a reason, they very carefully design everything to be a perfectly integrated device. If everyone got their 0.1mm we are looking at a phone that feels substantially thicker. Apple know better than random people on hacker news about what makes their phones sell, they don’t make them thinner for no reason.
      - kepler1 4y ago
        So, that's one part out of thousands. You're going to write up the 100 page list of all the considerations for how it has to be done, just for the iPhone? And that's going to be enacted into law/regulation?
        munk-a 4y ago
  - krnlpnc 4y ago
    I’ve taken apart various macs using screwdrivers, spudgers, and plastic pry tools. The most awkward was a plastic pizza cutter designed to cut the adhesive backing of the screen. It’s really not that hard, but very happy to see it getting easier.
  - Bud 4y ago
    Nonsense. This isn't prohibitively expensive, as anyone who has googled it for 5 seconds knows, so why tell that kind of lie? And it's also obviously very very accessible.
- rmbyrro 4y ago
  I wonder what people would say if it was Microsoft or Amazon on the exact same position.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  Agreed. Something that always felt strange upon seeing critiques of Apple's execution of guaranteed self-repair rights is that those critics are complaining about cost, about money. To whom I say: Bitch, you asked/demanded Right To Repair and y'all finally got Right To Repair. Money shouldn't be a concern, because that was never part of the demands. If you are going to forsake self-repair because it's (relatively) cheaper to get Apple to do it instead, you never truly cared about Right To Repair. Right To Repair was never about fixing something for cheaper than the OEM, it has always been about having a practical and realistic option to effect repairs yourself. How much it ends up costing you is an unrelated matter.
MBCook 4y ago
So because they did it for the wrong reason we should ignore it and keep complaining? This is good. People can keep arguing for more. That’s fair. But how is this a bad development in any way?
cutler 4y ago
Similar to Microsoft's volte face supporting Linux after over a decade spent trying to destroy it by bankrolling SCO's lawsuit and peddling their own bogus Linux patent racket.

by JohnGB 4y ago

It's not as if Apple didn't do everything they could to not do this. They were forced kicking and screaming by the EU to do this, and now they are trying to take credit for doing it.

jbuhbjlnjbn 4y ago

Let Apple embrace this forced change. Let them squeeze as much money as they can out of doing the right thing. This is no time to be petty, it's win-win.

fezfight 4y ago
It's not the right thing if its prohibitively expensive and inaccessible. The right thing is doing it without the inflated costs and expensive leased equipment. The right thing is not building your product in such a way as to require specialised equipment in the first place. This is effectively malicious compliance.
- saagarjha 4y ago
  > The right thing is not building your product in such a way as to require specialised equipment in the first place. A product like this would not be popular because it would be thicker, heavier, and have worse specs.
  - fezfight 4y ago
    Since we've seen it done elsewhere, you'd need to probably show or at least explain where/how it can't be done for Apple.
  - munk-a 4y ago
    I think it's a tall order to argue that worse performance is a necessary requirement of repairability and height and weight are constantly obsessed over but very few people I've met actually care about it (and a fair number like the Mac interface but would be happy to trade height for keyboard improvements).
    - andy_ppp 4y ago
      The products we have today are the result not of what people say they want but what people actually buy.
      - jfghi 4y ago
        Id claim it’s the products bought without clear alternative choices or understanding in the disposability of the designs. When I bought a MacBook Air around 2012, I didn’t expect the battery to be so remarkably difficult to replace as every laptop I had owned prior had removable batteries. Given the choice of a bigger computer with a replaceable battery/ram and probably better cooling, I’d choose that instantly.
        vel0city 4y ago
        > Given the choice of a bigger computer with a replaceable battery/ram and probably better cooling, I’d choose that instantly. So I take it that you immediately returned the MacBook Air and bought something which did have removable batteries?
        bfdm 4y ago
        This is really not the gotcha you seem to think it is. One is unlikely to learn how difficult repairs on a given device are until deep into the ownership cycle and well past any return window.
        vel0city 4y ago
        The poster claimed to prefer thicker laptops with replaceable batteries. There were lots of thicker laptops out there with obviously replaceable batteries. If it was such a priority, there were plenty of options. People are acting like they didn't have a choice but to choose a laptop with a battery glued in. No, the poster chose that machine at the time. There were laptops on the market with replaceable batteries, it just wasn't really their priority as they claim. If it was their priority, you'd think they would have bothered checking. If I claim having a lot of RAM is important for my machine, and then I buy a laptop with 2GB, I can't really go about arguing I didn't have a choice but to buy the 2GB machine. I just didn't bother investigating the specs and figure out there are machines much more suited for my demands. There were teardown reviews of the MBA almost instantly when it came out. The knowledge was there, if it was a priority they could have easily known. I'm arguing it wasn't really a priority, I'm sure they were plenty satisfied with that device the day they bought it. They went and choose a machine without bothering to consider if the battery was user serviceable. They might say now it's a priority, but when they paid for the machine it clearly wasn't.
  - jchw 4y ago
    That sounds like a picture perfect argument for industry-wide regulation. People don't want thicker phones, but if it must be done, then the market should compete to do it at the lowest overall cost.
    - saagarjha 4y ago
      Have you looked inside an iPhone? There’s barely any extra space at all for anything. Adding slots for people to take things apart, put in new commodity parts, and then seal the device up so it’s waterproof again are not zero-cost.
      - smoldesu 4y ago
        Sure, but mind you Apple's phones have gotten thicker over the past 5 years (as have their laptops), and that certainly hasn't impacted sales in any meaningful capacity. People don't really care, and I don't buy the arguement that it's impossible for Apple to design things to be more repair-friendly. Simple changes like socketing the battery or limiting OEM component DRM would make all the difference, but Apple actively fights against any changes that would threaten their authority over the iPhone and it's aftermarket profitability. Maybe there is a technical limitation here, but I'm not convinced the world's largest engineering team can't fix it with their 100 billion dollars in liquid R&D funding.
        throwaway894345 4y ago
        Can you provide a source for "gotten thicker"? I'm looking at https://www.knowyourmobile.com/user-guides/iphone-size-comparison-chart/ https://www.knowyourmobile.com/user-guides/iphone-size-compa... and the iphone x (2017) was 7.7mm and the iphones 12 and 13 were both 7.3-7.4mm. Only the iPhone 11 increased thickness and even then only by a fraction of a millimeter.
      - _carbyau_ 4y ago
        Edit: Unwelcome comment deleted.
  - p1necone 4y ago
    > A product like this would not be popular because it would be thicker, heavier, and have worse specs. This is not a statement you can just make with no evidence and expect people to take at face value. At least for laptops this is a myth. The Framework laptop has the same dimensions and weight as a Macbook air (give or take a few tenths of an inch on width/height but same thickness - I believe they kinda did this intentionally to call out Apple) and is fully repairable with individually replaceable parts. Many (most?) of the decisions that Apple make that make their systems less repairable are not things that meaningfully impact weight or size, it's just an excuse that they've been very successful in seeding in the minds of consumers.
  - WhyNotHugo 4y ago
    A 2021 Macbook is barely thinner or lighter than a Frame.work laptop. The difference is negligible. And the latter is made to be super easy to open and self service.
- kepler1 4y ago
  No specialized equipment? So an iPhone / Mac has to be repairable with a consumer Phillips head screwdriver? Full size? Or is a T6 screw allowed? How about glue? Who is to make the call about what specialized equipment and level of expense is ok enough by you? If people are buying the phones for the features they offer and the way they're constructed, and they offer a repair path, what do you suggest we do now, to satisfy your criteria?
  - pzo 4y ago
    For starter they could use 0.1mm thicker glue pads so that they won’t break so easy. If anyone tried to change battery on iPhone then knows how easy they are to break then you have to resort to using dental floss or fishing line as an improvised saw to remove the battery. Seriously there is enough space to make it just 0.1mm thicker
    - bradleybuda 4y ago
      You can buy that phone. I don't want to, I'll keep buying the one they sell.
      - andy_ppp 4y ago
        Exactly, they glue is that thick for a reason, they very carefully design everything to be a perfectly integrated device. If everyone got their 0.1mm we are looking at a phone that feels substantially thicker. Apple know better than random people on hacker news about what makes their phones sell, they don’t make them thinner for no reason.
    - kepler1 4y ago
      So, that's one part out of thousands. You're going to write up the 100 page list of all the considerations for how it has to be done, just for the iPhone? And that's going to be enacted into law/regulation?
      - munk-a 4y ago
- krnlpnc 4y ago
  I’ve taken apart various macs using screwdrivers, spudgers, and plastic pry tools. The most awkward was a plastic pizza cutter designed to cut the adhesive backing of the screen. It’s really not that hard, but very happy to see it getting easier.
- Bud 4y ago
  Nonsense. This isn't prohibitively expensive, as anyone who has googled it for 5 seconds knows, so why tell that kind of lie? And it's also obviously very very accessible.
rmbyrro 4y ago
I wonder what people would say if it was Microsoft or Amazon on the exact same position.
Dalewyn 4y ago
Agreed. Something that always felt strange upon seeing critiques of Apple's execution of guaranteed self-repair rights is that those critics are complaining about cost, about money. To whom I say: Bitch, you asked/demanded Right To Repair and y'all finally got Right To Repair. Money shouldn't be a concern, because that was never part of the demands. If you are going to forsake self-repair because it's (relatively) cheaper to get Apple to do it instead, you never truly cared about Right To Repair. Right To Repair was never about fixing something for cheaper than the OEM, it has always been about having a practical and realistic option to effect repairs yourself. How much it ends up costing you is an unrelated matter.

MBCook 4y ago

So because they did it for the wrong reason we should ignore it and keep complaining? This is good. People can keep arguing for more. That’s fair. But how is this a bad development in any way?

cutler 4y ago

Similar to Microsoft's volte face supporting Linux after over a decade spent trying to destroy it by bankrolling SCO's lawsuit and peddling their own bogus Linux patent racket.