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I am taking a look at the comments on this thread and im astonished. HN is full of intelligent, self-reliant people and yet, all throughout this thread I see so

I am taking a look at the comments on this thread and im astonished. HN is full of intelligent, self-reliant people and yet, all throughout this thread I see so many users trashing people for complaints about price and service quality from Apple. So many users here have had obviously bad experiences with Apple Care and Apple Repair Services, why is it so hard to believe them? Also, why is it so hard to imagine that Apple is making some mistakes in their repair model? Commenters defending Apple here - they dont care about you at all, they dont need the assistance from you in defending them, and you dont get a discount for doing so, so what is your motivation for doing it? It is clear this 'Self Service Repair' model is designed to prevent independent repair shops from making money, therefore eliminating them. In what way is this good for the consumer?

Ycombigatorz 4y ago
kmlx 4y ago
> It is clear this 'Self Service Repair' model is designed to prevent independent repair shops from making money, therefore eliminating them. how is this clear? do you think everyone will simply start fixing their own devices? from my experience a tiny tiny minority of people have both the necessary experience and the time to do this, thus leaving the independent shops mostly unaffected.
- widowlark 4y ago
  It's clear because of the details. You need a serial number to get a part (so therefore cannot purchase in bulk or generically) and the prices are not any better, and in many cases worse, than apple's own in-house price.
  - dwaite 4y ago
    Reference to it being a worse equipment price?
    - coder543 4y ago
      Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdYzVaC6HSQ&t=9m37s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdYzVaC6HSQ&t=9m37s LTT runs the numbers to demonstrate it. Apple is making you pay more to do it yourself, and you have to wait days for the parts to arrive, when you could just go down to the Apple Store. The pricing completely nullifies any real-world benefit of this program, making the program seem like it is entirely performative. If an individual can't even save money doing it this way, the program is worse than useless for repair shops since they won't be able to compete with Apple Store repair services. That's also without even addressing the inability for repair shops to buy parts before a customer shows up with a problem. Repair shops want to be able to provide same day service, which this program makes impossible... unless your name is Apple.
      - tpmoney 4y ago
        People upthread are saying Apple's OOW price for an MBA screen replacement is in the $500-600 range. The new self service program will sell you one for $300 if you return the old part, or $400 if you don't. Seems like it's perfectly possible to save money doing it this way.
        coder543 4y ago
        The self-service prices for Mac weren't available yesterday, so all that we could discuss was their iPhone program. Apple doesn't publicly list repair prices for laptops, so it is hard to say exactly what you'll pay. I look forward to people doing more in-depth research and figuring out exactly how things balance out with the Mac self-service program, but the iPhone program did not live up to even the most basic expectations. I'm also not seeing where you got that "$500-600" number "upthread", which presumably refers to the rest of this HN discussion, since I don't see any numbers like that. It could make the prices somewhat more reasonable than they were for iPhone, but I definitely haven't had time to do the research myself, and I don't appreciate how Apple hides the OOW repair cost for laptops, which makes this analysis harder.
      - dwaite 4y ago
        There are no iPhone itemized repairs, with most items resulting in an equipment swap. Some of these are subsidized (for instance, some battery replacements). The replaced items are salvaged. Linus's numbers are sensationalized on top of that - he drops the equipment return and salvage credit at some point, considers equipment rental as part of the part cost, as well as running numbers for his person's time (who I'm not sure is a trained technician, just that they value their time more than minimum wage). I personally would have looked for an AASP source for a cost comparison. Mac numbers will lend themselves quite a bit more to an apples-to-apples comparison. Repair shops have only been able to compete on pricing when they use non-OEM replacement parts or repair the OEM parts. Both these approaches are both getting much more difficult. Independent repair shops also have the sales disadvantage when they don't have a relationship set up to cover warranty repairs - so they often would be quoting OEM replacement parts for gear with years of depreciation, as well as upgrade benefits when the customer does a cost analysis. I'll go so far as to say if a repair place _ever_ quotes a cheaper price on a repair than Apple does themselves, they are doing a different repair. They are repairing the OEM part rather than replacing it, they are replacing a OEM part with a part salvaged from another device, or they are putting non-OEM parts in. For screen and battery replacements, the majority of phone repairs, it's almost always non-OEM parts. Apple testified to Congress that their repair services lose them money [1]. If they have not focused on their own repair services profitability, then they likely also have not focused on profitability of independent repair services. 1: https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU05/20190716/109793/HHRG-116-JU05-20190716-SD036.pdf https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU05/20190716/109793/HHRG... , response 21
freedomben 4y ago
> what is your motivation for doing it? For many of them, they identify with Apple. That is, part of their self identity is tied to Apple. To them Apple isn't just a for-profit company that makes good products, it's a philosophy, a way of life, a team, an identity. If someone challenges or says something negative about Apple, it's a negative about their identity and they take it very personally. To be clear, this tendency is not limited to Apple. Humans do it regarding all manner of companies/things. But Apple does have a particularly large and passionate following.
- widowlark 4y ago
  Yes I suspect you are right, but it saddens me to see such an illogical approach.
- ouid 4y ago
  apple is almost a 2 trillion dollar company, it is not inconceivable that they juat hire PR to defend them in comment sections
  - jonny_eh 4y ago
    While it is possible that they hire surrogates to post on HN, the simpler explanation is that they have rabid fans that stick their necks out for a trillion dollar company. The proof is that this behavior has been around Apple even well before their re-rise to dominance.
    - dougk16 4y ago
      The even more simpler explanation is that it's both.
      - jonny_eh 4y ago
        I disagree, the fewer assumptions means the simplest. I'd argue it's not worth the risk for Apple to hire people to shill for them, when there are so many who do it not just for free, but do it genuinely. Imagine if Apple hires shills, then they spill their guts to the NYTimes, that overall makes Apple look far worse.
Fradow 4y ago
> It is clear this 'Self Service Repair' model is designed to prevent independent repair shops from making money, therefore eliminating them. That's not clear at all. See for yourself the actual user experience of using it: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/25/technology/personaltech/apple-repair-program-iphone.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/25/technology/personaltech/a... From reading that a while ago, it seems to be designed so that Apple score some marketing points and plan ahead for regulations making that mandatory, while not actually delivering a credible service on that front. Virtually no one is going to use that service if it is indeed what's described in the article.
- widowlark 4y ago
  I think we are arguring the same point. I don't think Apple is doing this with good motivations and eliminating the independent repair shop is bad. The article you linked only further articulates why this move is bad for many other reasons, too
harha 4y ago
> It is clear this 'Self Service Repair' model is designed to prevent independent repair shops from making money, therefore eliminating them. In what way is this good for the consumer? The quality can be highly questionable. One shop first put an old battery in my MacBook, and after I complained they put in a new one from a bad manufacturer which ended up breaking touchpad and keyboard. On my iMac a different store installed the wrong screen (from the previous model that had ghosting issues and wasn’t as bright) - I ended up changing it myself for around EUR250 instead of 700 the store charged or 1100 Apple wanted. Also the screws were loose on the MacBook and the camera and microphone weren’t aligned on the iMac. I obviously went to different stores and checked the reviews before, but it didn’t help. Ideally it should be simple enough to make these repairs- on the same MacBook I replaced a broken fan which worked perfectly fine for four years. You really don’t know what happens in the store. That being said, I don’t think apple is seriously interested in helping users with this, it starts with the design of products. My old MacBook Pro retina was so much more robust than the new m1 pro I had to replace it with. The iMac screen is just silly with the easily breaking glass front that makes you replace the whole thing and also with the inaccessible drives.
- widowlark 4y ago
  >The quality can be highly questionable. One shop first put an old battery in my MacBook, and after I complained they put in a new one from a bad manufacturer which ended up breaking touchpad and keyboard. On my iMac a different store installed the wrong screen (from the previous model that had ghosting issues and wasn’t as bright) - I ended up changing it myself for around EUR250 instead of 700 the store charged or 1100 Apple wanted. Also the screws were loose on the MacBook and the camera and microphone weren’t aligned on the iMac. I obviously went to different stores and checked the reviews before, but it didn’t help. Is this not due entirely to how hard Apple makes it to get OEM parts?
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    The current state means you deal with “refurbishers” that mass sell used components (possibly fixing common issues at a micro-level), buy “broken” units yourself to harvest for parts or grab them off eBay et al. Sometimes the manufacturers do run extra production runs so you get new OEM parts. Or there is cross compatibility. I’ve covered a fair bit of the expense of my new Mac units by parting out my old ones.
fzfaa 4y ago
Apple is doing this to placate regulators. I want them to succeed because I don't want regulators dictating how the devices I buy, from Apple or otherwise, should be. Apple is fighting by my side.
- freedomben 4y ago
  Which regulators? Or rather which regulation threat? Are you thinking right to repair or something else like the EU monopoly stuff?
duxup 4y ago
Everyone thinks the other guy is just some hater or corporate sellout. Share a differing point of view, and someone thinks your one, someone else might think you're another. Even from the same comment.
- widowlark 4y ago
  When someone has a bad experience with a product I love, I try to help them, I don't put them down for trying to destroy my preferred brands reputation. Apple users are always convinced that people experiencing problems with the product are intentionally complaining to damage Apple, rather than honestly having an issue
  - duxup 4y ago
    >Apple users are always There's those extremes I'm talking about. No such user could possibly be anything else right?
    - widowlark 4y ago
      I see your point and will append always with 'seem to always be convinced'
bredren 4y ago
I think Apple has made major cost cutting changes on their repairs and returns department. As recently as a few years ago, Apple was much more liberal about returns and fees for repairs. I've also noticed that the quality of the customer support around returns has gone south. I've seen cases where basic information about the context of the return seems missing and customers are put in long loops dealing with simple problems. I've seen the miserly behavior myself. I've put a lot of cash toward Apple SW, HW and services but that loyalty is not recognized or rewarded in how you're treated by the company. Between this lack of awareness of who their sophisticated customers are and their loyalty and cost cutting measure, I suspect some people have been shocked at how bad the repair / returns experience can be today.
evanriley 4y ago
> astonished Why? This is quite literally every thread involving Apple. It doesn't matter the topic of the thread, it will eventually devolve into the same shit.
dang 4y ago
I think it's because those comments are provoked reflexively by the appearance of $BigCo in a story (automatically guaranteed to generate generic complaints about $BigCo), and if the story is the tuple ($BigCo, $Theme) (where $Theme = something like support, repair, price, you name it) then the reflex is even stronger to reproduce any-associated-complaint in that space. Because this is reflexive, it's not really a response to the story at hand—such comments are more self-referential than on topic. That is not intellectually interesting—we're not learning much from them. It's satisfying, though, to those who have similar pre-existing associations and feelings, so inevitably it brings up a lot of me-too reactions and similar posts. But again, those aren't particularly related to the original story—they're just prompted by it, sort of like tapping on a knee—so they aren't interesting to people who don't personally have the same associations with that topic tuple. Eventually, users who have opposite associations get tired of seeing these generic, not-particularly-on-topic comments, and respond by complaining about the complaints. Of course that's a reflexive and generic response in its own right. I sometimes call this the contrarian dynamic of internet forums (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22contrarian%20dynamic%22%20objection%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...). The only two things I know of to counteract this trend are (1) for users to consciously post more substantive, on-topic, curious comments, which provide nuclei for better discussion to organize around; and (2) for moderators to downweight generic and offtopic subthreads, which counteracts their unfortunate tendency to stick at the top of the page. p.s. Another way of describing this is that curious conversation needs reflective comments rather than reflexive ones: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=reflective%20reflex%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor....
- widowlark 4y ago
  As always thanks for the insight, dang
- choppaface 4y ago
  This is a good post to reflect upon when considering the bias in HN moderation. The moderation is not just invested in YC financially, but the depth of self-righteous philosophical conviction is there too. This isn’t Reddit nor your average Trust & Safety team that aims at neutrality, dang wants to be a Drudge or a Jeff Zucker.

Ycombigatorz 4y ago

kmlx 4y ago

> It is clear this 'Self Service Repair' model is designed to prevent independent repair shops from making money, therefore eliminating them. how is this clear? do you think everyone will simply start fixing their own devices? from my experience a tiny tiny minority of people have both the necessary experience and the time to do this, thus leaving the independent shops mostly unaffected.

widowlark 4y ago
It's clear because of the details. You need a serial number to get a part (so therefore cannot purchase in bulk or generically) and the prices are not any better, and in many cases worse, than apple's own in-house price.
- dwaite 4y ago
  Reference to it being a worse equipment price?
  - coder543 4y ago
    Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdYzVaC6HSQ&t=9m37s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdYzVaC6HSQ&t=9m37s LTT runs the numbers to demonstrate it. Apple is making you pay more to do it yourself, and you have to wait days for the parts to arrive, when you could just go down to the Apple Store. The pricing completely nullifies any real-world benefit of this program, making the program seem like it is entirely performative. If an individual can't even save money doing it this way, the program is worse than useless for repair shops since they won't be able to compete with Apple Store repair services. That's also without even addressing the inability for repair shops to buy parts before a customer shows up with a problem. Repair shops want to be able to provide same day service, which this program makes impossible... unless your name is Apple.
    - tpmoney 4y ago
      People upthread are saying Apple's OOW price for an MBA screen replacement is in the $500-600 range. The new self service program will sell you one for $300 if you return the old part, or $400 if you don't. Seems like it's perfectly possible to save money doing it this way.
      - coder543 4y ago
        The self-service prices for Mac weren't available yesterday, so all that we could discuss was their iPhone program. Apple doesn't publicly list repair prices for laptops, so it is hard to say exactly what you'll pay. I look forward to people doing more in-depth research and figuring out exactly how things balance out with the Mac self-service program, but the iPhone program did not live up to even the most basic expectations. I'm also not seeing where you got that "$500-600" number "upthread", which presumably refers to the rest of this HN discussion, since I don't see any numbers like that. It could make the prices somewhat more reasonable than they were for iPhone, but I definitely haven't had time to do the research myself, and I don't appreciate how Apple hides the OOW repair cost for laptops, which makes this analysis harder.
    - dwaite 4y ago
      There are no iPhone itemized repairs, with most items resulting in an equipment swap. Some of these are subsidized (for instance, some battery replacements). The replaced items are salvaged. Linus's numbers are sensationalized on top of that - he drops the equipment return and salvage credit at some point, considers equipment rental as part of the part cost, as well as running numbers for his person's time (who I'm not sure is a trained technician, just that they value their time more than minimum wage). I personally would have looked for an AASP source for a cost comparison. Mac numbers will lend themselves quite a bit more to an apples-to-apples comparison. Repair shops have only been able to compete on pricing when they use non-OEM replacement parts or repair the OEM parts. Both these approaches are both getting much more difficult. Independent repair shops also have the sales disadvantage when they don't have a relationship set up to cover warranty repairs - so they often would be quoting OEM replacement parts for gear with years of depreciation, as well as upgrade benefits when the customer does a cost analysis. I'll go so far as to say if a repair place _ever_ quotes a cheaper price on a repair than Apple does themselves, they are doing a different repair. They are repairing the OEM part rather than replacing it, they are replacing a OEM part with a part salvaged from another device, or they are putting non-OEM parts in. For screen and battery replacements, the majority of phone repairs, it's almost always non-OEM parts. Apple testified to Congress that their repair services lose them money [1]. If they have not focused on their own repair services profitability, then they likely also have not focused on profitability of independent repair services. 1: https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU05/20190716/109793/HHRG-116-JU05-20190716-SD036.pdf https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU05/20190716/109793/HHRG... , response 21

freedomben 4y ago

> what is your motivation for doing it? For many of them, they identify with Apple. That is, part of their self identity is tied to Apple. To them Apple isn't just a for-profit company that makes good products, it's a philosophy, a way of life, a team, an identity. If someone challenges or says something negative about Apple, it's a negative about their identity and they take it very personally. To be clear, this tendency is not limited to Apple. Humans do it regarding all manner of companies/things. But Apple does have a particularly large and passionate following.

widowlark 4y ago
Yes I suspect you are right, but it saddens me to see such an illogical approach.
ouid 4y ago
apple is almost a 2 trillion dollar company, it is not inconceivable that they juat hire PR to defend them in comment sections
- jonny_eh 4y ago
  While it is possible that they hire surrogates to post on HN, the simpler explanation is that they have rabid fans that stick their necks out for a trillion dollar company. The proof is that this behavior has been around Apple even well before their re-rise to dominance.
  - dougk16 4y ago
    The even more simpler explanation is that it's both.
    - jonny_eh 4y ago
      I disagree, the fewer assumptions means the simplest. I'd argue it's not worth the risk for Apple to hire people to shill for them, when there are so many who do it not just for free, but do it genuinely. Imagine if Apple hires shills, then they spill their guts to the NYTimes, that overall makes Apple look far worse.

Fradow 4y ago

> It is clear this 'Self Service Repair' model is designed to prevent independent repair shops from making money, therefore eliminating them. That's not clear at all. See for yourself the actual user experience of using it: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/25/technology/personaltech/apple-repair-program-iphone.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/25/technology/personaltech/a... From reading that a while ago, it seems to be designed so that Apple score some marketing points and plan ahead for regulations making that mandatory, while not actually delivering a credible service on that front. Virtually no one is going to use that service if it is indeed what's described in the article.

widowlark 4y ago
I think we are arguring the same point. I don't think Apple is doing this with good motivations and eliminating the independent repair shop is bad. The article you linked only further articulates why this move is bad for many other reasons, too

harha 4y ago

> It is clear this 'Self Service Repair' model is designed to prevent independent repair shops from making money, therefore eliminating them. In what way is this good for the consumer? The quality can be highly questionable. One shop first put an old battery in my MacBook, and after I complained they put in a new one from a bad manufacturer which ended up breaking touchpad and keyboard. On my iMac a different store installed the wrong screen (from the previous model that had ghosting issues and wasn’t as bright) - I ended up changing it myself for around EUR250 instead of 700 the store charged or 1100 Apple wanted. Also the screws were loose on the MacBook and the camera and microphone weren’t aligned on the iMac. I obviously went to different stores and checked the reviews before, but it didn’t help. Ideally it should be simple enough to make these repairs- on the same MacBook I replaced a broken fan which worked perfectly fine for four years. You really don’t know what happens in the store. That being said, I don’t think apple is seriously interested in helping users with this, it starts with the design of products. My old MacBook Pro retina was so much more robust than the new m1 pro I had to replace it with. The iMac screen is just silly with the easily breaking glass front that makes you replace the whole thing and also with the inaccessible drives.

widowlark 4y ago
>The quality can be highly questionable. One shop first put an old battery in my MacBook, and after I complained they put in a new one from a bad manufacturer which ended up breaking touchpad and keyboard. On my iMac a different store installed the wrong screen (from the previous model that had ghosting issues and wasn’t as bright) - I ended up changing it myself for around EUR250 instead of 700 the store charged or 1100 Apple wanted. Also the screws were loose on the MacBook and the camera and microphone weren’t aligned on the iMac. I obviously went to different stores and checked the reviews before, but it didn’t help. Is this not due entirely to how hard Apple makes it to get OEM parts?
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  The current state means you deal with “refurbishers” that mass sell used components (possibly fixing common issues at a micro-level), buy “broken” units yourself to harvest for parts or grab them off eBay et al. Sometimes the manufacturers do run extra production runs so you get new OEM parts. Or there is cross compatibility. I’ve covered a fair bit of the expense of my new Mac units by parting out my old ones.

fzfaa 4y ago

Apple is doing this to placate regulators. I want them to succeed because I don't want regulators dictating how the devices I buy, from Apple or otherwise, should be. Apple is fighting by my side.

freedomben 4y ago
Which regulators? Or rather which regulation threat? Are you thinking right to repair or something else like the EU monopoly stuff?

duxup 4y ago

Everyone thinks the other guy is just some hater or corporate sellout. Share a differing point of view, and someone thinks your one, someone else might think you're another. Even from the same comment.

widowlark 4y ago
When someone has a bad experience with a product I love, I try to help them, I don't put them down for trying to destroy my preferred brands reputation. Apple users are always convinced that people experiencing problems with the product are intentionally complaining to damage Apple, rather than honestly having an issue
- duxup 4y ago
  >Apple users are always There's those extremes I'm talking about. No such user could possibly be anything else right?
  - widowlark 4y ago
    I see your point and will append always with 'seem to always be convinced'

bredren 4y ago

I think Apple has made major cost cutting changes on their repairs and returns department. As recently as a few years ago, Apple was much more liberal about returns and fees for repairs. I've also noticed that the quality of the customer support around returns has gone south. I've seen cases where basic information about the context of the return seems missing and customers are put in long loops dealing with simple problems. I've seen the miserly behavior myself. I've put a lot of cash toward Apple SW, HW and services but that loyalty is not recognized or rewarded in how you're treated by the company. Between this lack of awareness of who their sophisticated customers are and their loyalty and cost cutting measure, I suspect some people have been shocked at how bad the repair / returns experience can be today.

evanriley 4y ago

> astonished Why? This is quite literally every thread involving Apple. It doesn't matter the topic of the thread, it will eventually devolve into the same shit.

dang 4y ago

I think it's because those comments are provoked reflexively by the appearance of $BigCo in a story (automatically guaranteed to generate generic complaints about $BigCo), and if the story is the tuple ($BigCo, $Theme) (where $Theme = something like support, repair, price, you name it) then the reflex is even stronger to reproduce any-associated-complaint in that space. Because this is reflexive, it's not really a response to the story at hand—such comments are more self-referential than on topic. That is not intellectually interesting—we're not learning much from them. It's satisfying, though, to those who have similar pre-existing associations and feelings, so inevitably it brings up a lot of me-too reactions and similar posts. But again, those aren't particularly related to the original story—they're just prompted by it, sort of like tapping on a knee—so they aren't interesting to people who don't personally have the same associations with that topic tuple. Eventually, users who have opposite associations get tired of seeing these generic, not-particularly-on-topic comments, and respond by complaining about the complaints. Of course that's a reflexive and generic response in its own right. I sometimes call this the contrarian dynamic of internet forums (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22contrarian%20dynamic%22%20objection%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...). The only two things I know of to counteract this trend are (1) for users to consciously post more substantive, on-topic, curious comments, which provide nuclei for better discussion to organize around; and (2) for moderators to downweight generic and offtopic subthreads, which counteracts their unfortunate tendency to stick at the top of the page. p.s. Another way of describing this is that curious conversation needs reflective comments rather than reflexive ones: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=reflective%20reflex%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor....

widowlark 4y ago
As always thanks for the insight, dang
choppaface 4y ago
This is a good post to reflect upon when considering the bias in HN moderation. The moderation is not just invested in YC financially, but the depth of self-righteous philosophical conviction is there too. This isn’t Reddit nor your average Trust & Safety team that aims at neutrality, dang wants to be a Drudge or a Jeff Zucker.