11 ms·

Moving to Estonia

89 points by maksimdrachov 4y ago

Sin2x 4y ago
This article might have been correct before the Ukraine war but right now Estonian inflation is nearing 25%. Digital economy is working well only when the economy overall is booming.
jaclaz 4y ago
Yep, but your last update is after just 1 month you were there: https://maksimdrachov.github.io/2022/03/05/estonia-month-1 https://maksimdrachov.github.io/2022/03/05/estonia-month-1 what happened later? Is it all going fine and along your original expectations/wishes?
- booleandilemma 4y ago
  A gem from the post you linked: Your compensation is on a second-by-second basis: at the end of the day you’ll see that your wallet has been topped up by the exact amount you’ve earned that day No no no. I want a salary. I want to know how much money I'll be making over a week, a month, even , <gasp>, a year. How else am I supposed to plan expenses? Support a family? Really, what a stupid idea.
  - throwaway22032 4y ago
    You have a surplus and don't live paycheck to paycheck. To me the idea of having your life function like a JiT warehouse is stressful...
    - emptyparadise 4y ago
      The Amazon warehouse worker experience.
  - spywaregorilla 4y ago
    Those two concepts aren't at odds really.
  - 411111111111111 4y ago
    I mean it's not a particularly new idea, it's basically what the gig economy is all about and is very much the norm in low skilled labor with shitty payment. It's not by-second, but that's a way too small unit of measurement anyway, so that was a non starter to begin with.
  - Koshkin 4y ago
    Being paid for what you have actually done is not a "stupid idea."
    - antiterra 4y ago
      If you have no control over the hours you have to work, could be called in at any time, or are not allowed to work for others at your discretion, a paid a base rate for being retained makes sense. Not to mention, for many jobs, time at work is not a measure of ‘how much work’ you’ve done and such a measure creates an incentive to be inefficient.
    - jodrellblank 4y ago
      It is a stupid idea in the sense that you can see everyone at the top of society financially, socially, influentially, does not have that apply to them or want it to apply to them. From landlords and business owners wanting to be paid for what other people have actually done, to singers and movie makers and authors wanting to be paid for every copy long after what they did, to personal branding wanting to be paid for putting "Michael Jordan" on clothing, to patent holders wanting to be paid for what they thought of, to license holders wanting to be paid for what they permit others to do, to conduits wanting to be paid for what travels through them, to governments wanting to tax what others do, to lobbied politicians wanting to be paid for not getting in someone's way. If the people 'above' you definitely don't want it for themselves, it's quite likely a stupid idea for you to accept them doing it to you. On the other side, business owners want to pay employees for "what they have actually done" miss the forest for the trees; leading to stories like the developers committing unfinished code, QA finding lots of bugs (for all the basic functionality that was never written), developers fixing those bugs, and hooray the metrics look great for activity but meaningful progress is through the floor and quality is nowhere to be seen. And keys pressed, minutes spent in meetings, reports written, are on the up - easily padded filler and busywork - and difficult to measure things like customer satisfaction, employee morale, creativity, design, planning, are on the down.
  - ur-whale 4y ago
    > I want a salary. That's your opinion. You want safety and don't like risk. There are many folks that think like you. But thankfully, not everyone functions this way.
  - bombastry 4y ago
    I really enjoyed the second example of paying Netflix by the second. The blockchain has invented movie rentals.
  - blululu 4y ago
    I wouldn’t write it off that quickly. The reason we have a two week pay period is a matter of administrative costs. When these drop because they are automated with a computer you can now pay continuously. Why should you work two weeks on credit? On the flip side a payroll company could make decent money off the two week time arbitration.
    - jaclaz 4y ago
      The two week period is "typical" in US, in the EU countries usually payment for personnel is monthly, JFYI (though in some firms/fields there can be an "advance" around the 2nd week, usually less than half the pay).
- maksimdrachov 4y ago
  I would say I'm still very happy with my choice so far. I haven't written much due to being busy. Some things that happened after the first month that might be worth mentioning: - By working in the local co-working space (which I did for a month to get some additional contacts outside of my workplace), I've managed to get to meet quite a lot of interesting people. Once, the minister of Digital Innovation came to visit. He talked about his work/future projects, we could ask questions, he seemed pretty knowledgeable about his stuff. In general it seems to be pretty easy to get into contact with anyone if you have some question (be it government-related or startup-related). - A couple of weeks ago, the Estonian startup community organized a "freedom convoy" to Kyiv (pickup trucks for the army). I participated and since it was organized by Ragnar Sass (co-founder of a local unicorn called Pipedrive), I got the chance to hang out with a "real" entrepreneur. I found it a interesting experience, since I've always wondered if there is something special about successful entrepreneurs. My main observation has been that he did seem to be a very high energy kind of person, I guess that helps with building a successful startup. - I discovered there's a really sizeable French-speaking community in Tallinn. From most people I've heard the same reasons over and over: stifling bureaucracy and high taxes. - I'm noticing also lots of Italian people moving here. Just to give a balanced perspective, I'll try to also mention some downsides: - Coming from Belgium, I sometimes miss the architecture. Tallinn is mostly modern-looking, except for the old town (which I don't find myself in that often). Some of the new areas are actually quite nice-looking, but I still feel older architecture has more liveliness to it. - Due to the war/inflation, the prices have been rising noticeably lately. I'm not sure how to feel about this, but I guess this is something that is not just the case for Estonia, but also wider Europe. (Estonia did have the largest inflation numbers at one point though). We'll see how it evolves, at least I have more faith in the Estonian government than my previous Belgian one. In general, I think the main reason I'm happy to live here: Estonia feels like a country on a positive trajectory. Living in Belgium can be, at times, a bit of a downer: it feels like everyone is just trying to "maintain"; and on some level everyone agrees: the best days are behind us.
  - LtWorf 4y ago
    Startup people do their best to convince others that their startup is the best and that things are going great. It might not be true.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jacknews 4y ago
"To be fair, there is one notable exception: Imec, an R&D hub for nano- and digital technologies. This organization has succesfully spun-off multiple startups in its specialist field. However those are often based on specialization in a very narrow field of research. I’m more into the Silicon Valley-type of startups." Isn't this exactly what countries should be doing, funding emerging niche technologies? I assume by 'silicon valley-type' you mean facebook, twitter, uber, and the like? IMHO, many of these don't seem to add any real value to society, certainly not in proportion to how much money they attract.
- stickfigure 4y ago
  > don't seem to add any real value These comments make me angry. Thanks to Facebook, I keep in contact with a lot of friends who would otherwise have completely lost touch with. Thanks to Uber, I get comfortable rides from point A to point B, even in places where the taxi systems completely fail (and there are a lot of these, I have plenty of stories, even recent ones). I get enormous value from these services. You don't, fine. Stop projecting on others.
  - nxtbl 4y ago
    So we're still getting the fb excuse/apologism. Anyone could have used - and many of us used - plain old email, then irc, various messengers et al before zuck came. Back then, at that time, there were other ways to keep in touch and still is, just much more. All of them are better in terms of privacy.
    - tetromino_ 4y ago
      Please tell me of one service that existed before Zuck came along that you could use to set up multi-directional live video streaming for a group event connecting the US and multiple locations across Eastern Europe and South Asia with mediocre internet connectivity, for several hours, for free, and that would be so simple to use that your elderly grandparents could join in. Please tell me of one service that existed before Zuck came along that automatically performed genuinely good machine translation of chat messages between two non-English languages. Please tell me of one service that existed before Zuck came along where you could, after moving to a new town or neighborhood where you know nobody, be certain that you would be able find active local groups for your non-nerdy social niche. Because these are all things I have recently used Facebook for. And while there are alternatives for some/all of them in the era after Facebook, in the era before Facebook, I don't think I would have been able to do them easily, or at all.
ur-whale 4y ago
> For the level of service offered by the Belgian government, I would argue the tax burden is quite high This is fairly standard for western Europe (with the exceptions of Scandinavia): very high tax burden, terrible government services. In other words: at best, you're not getting your money worth, at worst you're being sheared and milked by your government.
- dukoid 4y ago
  I think Switzerland is an exception, too: low tax burden and good government service in many areas.
  - eatonphil 4y ago
    Very high cost of living though.
    - dukoid 4y ago
      That's similar in Scandinavia though.
      - eatonphil 4y ago
        I've not lived in either but I've traveled through Switzerland and Denmark (and a few other European countries) and hotels and food were 75% to 100% more expensive or so in Switzerland than anywhere else including Denmark. My brother lived in Switzerland and France (though not Scandinavia) and mostly confirmed that Switzerland has unnaturally high CoL for the area.
- Aachen 4y ago
  Does Scandinavia have a lower tax burden or better government services?
  - dukoid 4y ago
    Better government services
Kalanos 4y ago
isn't estonia a top 3 target for russia right now?
- mattnewton 4y ago
  Estonia is in NATO and the EU right? I think a Russian invasion of a NATO country would be a problem if you lived anywhere in Europe, or the world really.
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  Estonia is in NATO. That seems quite stupid. Who's number 1 and 2? The US and Germany?
  - Kalanos 4y ago
    finland? moldova? georgia?
    - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
      Moldova and Georgia aren't in NATO. I'm not sure on the timeline - but Finland will soon be a NATO member. I don't think Finland has anything to worry about. Moldova, maybe. George - not being a border state with the EU - definitely.
- eatonphil 4y ago
  Estonia is in NATO. So seems doubtful it's a serious target.
  - rwmj 4y ago
    Certainly one hopes, although one also hopes that Putin is acting rationally and is advised by people who can speak truth to power.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- 4y ago
seydor 4y ago
I think the problem with estonia is that it's just not that attractive a place. I wish they could join forces with some southern european country (which have far more issues than belgium)
- eatonphil 4y ago
  I've never been there but I'm curious: in which ways do you mean unattractive? As in the buildings/architecture/landscape is ugly? The pay there is low? Government services are lacking/corrupt? Something else?
  - seydor 4y ago
    cold I don't mean it's a bad place, but for europeans to move, they usually choose somewhere more exotic
    - machinekob 4y ago
      Cold (i dont think estonia is cold but whatever) > warm in times of global warming when you dont even have enough water to support nuclear reactors in France. South Europe (outside south France) is probably worst place to live if you care about 10+ years window and plan or have kids. You'll just let them out to live in 25% unemployment, high possibility of another immigration crisis and stagnant economy cause you prefere 40+ celsius over 25 in the middle of the day.
  - Gravityloss 4y ago
    Don't know why someone would complain about Estonia? Haven't lived there but visited quite many times. Tallinn has a dense old town. Pärnu is a laid back walkable summer city with a great beach. Saarenmaa is calm and quiet. For negatives, they do lack mountains, there aree large boring pine forest parts in the middle and there are still, after 30 years, a lot of Soviet era semi ruined buildings that make at least me sad. (Buildings can be even older but they were not maintained for the 40+ years of Soviet occupation.)
- tifik 4y ago
alberth 4y ago
Off-topic: for anyone who lives in Estonia, what is their eID system like? (For those unaware, Estonia is one of a few countries that has a government issued electronic ID for all citizens.)
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  Estonia also has electronic voting that seems to work well. Wish more countries could be similar.
  - asldjajlfkj 4y ago
    Electronic voting is a bad idea. Almost no upside, but lot of downside. Nobody can proof that the system works, nobody can keep it secure (noone cares about estionian elections, imagine the US...), nobody can proof authenticity in retrospect. And of course, they can’t really be anonymous. And for what? So that somebody that is too lazy or too disengaged to fill out a paper form or spend 10 minutes at a voting both can have a say in the countries direction?
    - alberth 4y ago
      > Nobody can proof that the system works, nobody can keep it secure (noone cares about estionian elections, imagine the US...), nobody can proof authenticity in retrospect. And of course, they can’t really be anonymous. Why do you believe none of this can be proofed or kept secure?
      - amanaplanacanal 4y ago
        I'm guessing they are talking about electronic voting in general, and not the specific system Estonia uses.
    - TulliusCicero 4y ago
      And yet it works fine in Estonia. Not everywhere has to be technologically backwards.
fooph 4y ago
> I tagged every one of our ministers (remember: 6 governments) that could have made a difference in solving this question. 1600 people saw the post, no one got back to me. > This might seem trivial, however to me this is part of a larger problem. The political class does not really care about improving the system as it is too busy with infighting. He left Belgium because some politicians he tagged on LinkedIn didn't reply to his post? Lol
- rovr138 4y ago
  I mean, he doesn't like how they do politics which affect him so he left. Is there a better way of dealing with the issue? He can't force a vote. He also doesn't have to stay. So he packed up and left. Sounds like a great way of dealing with people in power. Imagine if we all had that flexibility. 'We'll just pack up and leave. Good luck with your bullshit and governing over nothing.'
  - insightcheck 4y ago
    It's a valid option, but an alternative is to stay in the country and try to lobby and advocate for change within the country. There is a certain point where lobbying and advocacy can be futile, and emigration is a stronger option. For example, in Venezuela's recent history, it went from a prosperous country to an economically devastated one, and the population fell in the 2010s as a result [0]. However, Belgium is in a much better place in terms of political stability. It's far more likely that advocacy can be effective. However, it takes a lot of time, and you can give up a lot of potential earnings by staying and trying to advocate. If one has an attachment to a country, especially as a citizen, one can find a lot of value in trying to introduce reforms instead of emigrating. [0] https://www.google.com/search?q=Venezuela+population+over+time&client=safari&ved=0ahUKEwiIodeQ6tr5AhVuATQIHYcRAfwQ4dUDCAw&oq=Venezuela+population+over+time&sclient=gws-wiz https://www.google.com/search?q=Venezuela+population+over+ti...
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- 4y ago
jb1991 4y ago
These kinds of apples to oranges comparisons are a little ridiculous. Estonia is a tiny country compared to Belgium, which is also small, but is obviously going to have a much different set of trade-offs. There are so many other factors to consider besides those listed in this article. And ultimately, being an entrepreneur is not really about where you live, it’s what you choose to do. People who think that if they move somewhere it’ll suddenly make them into the person they want to be are usually in for a disappointment. The example of a place to find standard contracts is also frankly trivial. Anyone who wants to start a company quickly figures out what they need to do in the environment in which they live, and ideally they will involve locals who understand the system very well. Just hiring a good local accountant who understands the laws is going to be of benefit regardless of any websites that make your research easy. Far more important is living in a place that inspires you to do your best work, that’s ultimately the most important ingredient.
- Dracophoenix 4y ago
  > And ultimately, being an entrepreneur is not really about where you live, it’s what you choose to do. People who think that if they move somewhere it’ll suddenly make them into the person they want to be are usually in for a disappointment. Where you live dictates the laws, culture, and tax policies that you're expected to follow and will be punished for breaking. There are many entrepreneurs in Africa but one rarely hears of any successful ones internationally that don't come from South Africa. Obvious reasons for this would be ethnopolitical turmoil, lack of personal liberties, and kleptocratic dictatorships. While Belgium is a far cry from a failed state, policies that interfere with one's personal goals will require a change in geography, at least for the foreseeable future. It would be great if entrepreneurs could be residents of the moon for tax purposes while stating put, but no such e-citizenship program exist. The example of a place to find standard contracts is also frankly trivial. Anyone who wants to start a company quickly figures out what they need to do in the environment in which they live, and ideally they will involve locals who understand the system very well. Just hiring a good local accountant who understands the laws is going to be of benefit regardless of any websites that make your research easy. Far more important is living in a place that inspires you to do your best work, that’s ultimately the most important ingredient.
vladharbuz 4y ago
Moving to a country based on how many "unicorns" there are in that country seems uniquely stupid to me. Better healthcare? Wonderful. More like-minded people who share your values and interests? Sounds great! But a valuation means literally nothing. You could just as well have a country full of "unicorns" that absolutely do not improve society and result in crippling socioeconomic inequality. I also don't understand the point about the bureaucratic German system. I've lived in Germany, and yes, the bureaucracy can at times be annoying. But are you really going to base where you live your life on how difficult it is to incorporate a company, an activity you will do at most a few times? I also hope that you are now in a country that will help you "become a founder more quickly and increase the odds of [your] startup being successful", but I trust you already know that these odds will be overwhelmingly decided by your own ideas and work, not by the specific legal details of limited liability companies in your jurisdiction. I truly hope OP finds a lot of happiness and a wonderful life in Estonia, but if they do, I don't think it will have been for the reasons they expected. (Note: nothing against Estonia, I've always wanted to visit)
- Wronnay 4y ago
  I agree with you. I own a GmbH in Germany and many things, which you are required to do, make total sense. (E.g. for government supported founding you will need a business plan - but that you need anyway, even if you talk to private investors) There are a few annoying specialities (like the Reverse Charge VAT) but most of them are EU wide things.
- option 4y ago
  It is about future. “how fast is it to incorporate” and “number of unicorns” etc. will likely result in better economic activity and standard of living in the future. “annoying bureaucracy” will likely result in degradation and lower economic activity in the future.
  - Wronnay 4y ago
    If you look at things like the GDPR, Reverse Charge VAT and other stuff the EU has planned, then you will realize that is an EU wide problem with “annoying bureaucracy”. So moving from one EU country to another doesn't solve this issue. Also, Germany has the most political power in the EU because they have the most population - so the same shitty things German politicians plan for their own country have a big possibility to become EU standards.
mkl95 4y ago
> For the level of service offered by the Belgian government, I would argue the tax burden is quite high I live in another EU country, and I agree. It's difficult for me to see institutions such as healthcare fall apart while the government is taking a large amount of my salary from my employer and myself every month. One of the biggest reasons I struggle with it is lack of transparency. Something as simple as a quarterly breakdown of what my money is being spent on along with a feedback form would make it much easier to cope.
boris 4y ago
One thing that is unique about Estonia is its corporate tax system. Specifically, a business does not pay any tax on profit that it does not distribute as dividents. Meaning that any profit that you re-invest into the business (or just save for the rainy day) is not taxed. It's hard to appreciate what a game changer this is unless you've experienced the traditional system with capitalization of assets, depreciation, etc. BTW, if anyone else knows of other countries with a similar tax system, please share (I did a bit of research but couldn't find any).
- thelittleone 4y ago
  How about a free zone in the UAE?
- chongli 4y ago
  a business does not pay any tax on profit that it does not distribute as dividents Can a business get around this by re-purchasing shares from the open market?
  - skeletal88 4y ago
    Yes, but how long can you do that? Also, our local stock exchange has listed only a few dozen companies.
    - chongli 4y ago
      As long as you want. When the share prices go up you do stock splits.
      - skeletal88 4y ago
        Private persons have to pay income tax when they sell their shares for a profit. So there is no way to avoid the income tax and getmoney out of the company without taxes.
        Scoundreller 4y ago
bovermyer 4y ago
My wife and I considered moving to Estonia awhile back. One of the major things that convinced us against it was the safety issue - Estonia shares a border with Russia. Estonia has been a soccerball between Germany and Russia in the past, and Russia's current ambitions could very easily expand to include the Baltic states.
- eatonphil 4y ago
  Did you move to a different NATO state instead?
- fumblebee 4y ago
  Estonia is in NATO, an attack against one Ally is considered as an attack against all Allies. Maybe I'm trivialising the issue, but that fact alone seems a large enough deterrent to any potential Russian offensive.
  - bovermyer 4y ago
    It's a big deterrent, yeah, but.... Putin doesn't seem rock-solid in the sanity department.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- rob74 4y ago
  I don't think Estonia (or the other Baltic States) are in concrete danger - I think Putin specifically attacked Ukraine because he felt he could get away with it (actually he did mostly get away with the annexation of Crimea etc. in 2014), but that the window of opportunity might be closing because Ukraine had a very clear target of joining NATO. The Baltic States are already NATO members, so their situation is completely different.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nuccy 4y ago
I frequently hear about "startup-favourable climate" in Estonia, but how good it really is and at what stage. A good analogy may be tourism. When you come as a tourist to a village in a middle of nowhere you get all the hospitality and attention. When you come to Paris, shop sellers can yell at you 15 minutes before the shop is closing to get you out immediately, since they simply don't care - there is a constant flow of tourists, so individual ones don't matter any more for them. At what stage Estonia is with startups?
- ricardobayes 4y ago
  They are at the '20% company tax' stage
  - nuccy 4y ago
    Table 3 in [1] seems to suggest that there are many other places (some in Europe/EU/NATO) where company tax is lower than 20%. From the blog post it seems author moves for the attitude rather. 1. https://taxfoundation.org/publications/corporate-tax-rates-around-the-world/ https://taxfoundation.org/publications/corporate-tax-rates-a...
Cyberdog 4y ago
Can someone explain to me, in little tiny words, the "e-Residency" thing? As an American, if I become an "e-resident" of Estonia, I can then open a business in Estonia, right? But then aren't I just making myself subject to the regulations and taxes of two governments instead of just one? How is this simplifying things or reducing costs?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nivertech 4y ago
  IMO this is not for people from developed/"western" countries. This is mainly for people living in countries that have problems connecting to the western banking system, or with a lot of bureaucracy and/or corruption. In most developed countries, an Estonian e-Residency company falls under something like a "Foreign Controlled Corporation" and can be fully taxed just like a local one. This will surely create a lot of legal and accounting problems. Perhaps this is an option for crypto startups that have trouble opening bank accounts in their countries.
jeroenhd 4y ago
What does your startup actually do? Your linked Github and Twitter only led me to hackernews.ee but I doubt that's what you're trying to build a company around. I see a reference to Unikie on your LinkedIn but that's much more than a startup at this point; it's got over 250 workers and has acquired several other companies if https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/unikie https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/unikie is to be believed. Maybe you're working on something behind the scenes that you're not ready to reveal yet, but I don't see the connection. Not every tech company is a startup, nor does it have to be. The digitalisation found in Estonia is nice, but I haven't really heard of anything that the Dutch government doesn't allow you to do online as well.
tiktaktow 4y ago
Having lived both in Estonia and Belgium, I think this is just an initial attraction. Estonia is a strange country. While the tech-sector is booming, other sectors are struggling. Average blue collar jobs pay is similar to few 3rd world countries. The ageing population coupled with slow birth rate, brings other problems for the state. Health service sector is deteriorating with almost all health professionals eyeing to migrate to West Europe and USA or even Finland. Public infrastructure is bad, don't even have to go more than 10km outside of Tallinn center to notice it. The tech and startup scene is indeed one of the best in Europe, but the tech utopia fascination will wear off in few years unless you succeed in becoming filthy rich. On the long run, you will start noticing the overall quality of life is much much better in Belgium.
t_mann 4y ago
Great to see that at least some places in the EU seem to be doing it right. The startup ecosystem is a shame for such a developed place.
sam_lowry_ 4y ago
I suspect that the real reason is that you are a Russian speaker, moving to Estonia to connect with all the new Russian emigrants that flocked there before and especially after 24 February 2022. Being EU citizen, you can look them down, feeding your narcissism. You may also profit from their desperation as they are being pushed back to Russia because Estonia cancel their visas. It's also a great moment to hit a girl or two that would usually be out your league.
froavei 4y ago
I'm planning to move to Estonia to start a software product company so this is a very interesting discussion. I was already aware that Ireland and Hungary have lower corporate tax than Estonia but reading the comments I stopped to ponder why I'm not starting the company there instead. One reason is that I don't have to begin paying (much) tax in Estonia until I start taking money out of the company, which could be many years into the future. Another reason is cultural: I admit to not knowing all that much about Hungarian culture, but being from Northern Europe I think I will like it better in Estonia and fit in better. Ireland is just too far away. Also I'm not sure if Ireland being an English-speaking country is only a good thing. I prefer to keep a safe distance from the more toxic parts of Silicon Valley culture (just see what happened to Base Camp).
jessegeens 4y ago
Just FYI: Belgium has 4 unicorns, not 2 (Odoo, Deliverect, Collibra and Team.blue). We also have a similar thing to the PayPal mafia in Belgium: the Netlog mafia (with people like Lorenz Bogaert). Greetings from a fellow KUL FirW Alum ;)
- maksimdrachov 4y ago
  :D

89 points by maksimdrachov 4y ago

This article might have been correct before the Ukraine war but right now Estonian inflation is nearing 25%. Digital economy is working well only when the economy overall is booming.

jaclaz 4y ago

Yep, but your last update is after just 1 month you were there: https://maksimdrachov.github.io/2022/03/05/estonia-month-1 https://maksimdrachov.github.io/2022/03/05/estonia-month-1 what happened later? Is it all going fine and along your original expectations/wishes?

booleandilemma 4y ago
A gem from the post you linked: Your compensation is on a second-by-second basis: at the end of the day you’ll see that your wallet has been topped up by the exact amount you’ve earned that day No no no. I want a salary. I want to know how much money I'll be making over a week, a month, even , <gasp>, a year. How else am I supposed to plan expenses? Support a family? Really, what a stupid idea.
- throwaway22032 4y ago
  You have a surplus and don't live paycheck to paycheck. To me the idea of having your life function like a JiT warehouse is stressful...
  - emptyparadise 4y ago
    The Amazon warehouse worker experience.
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  Those two concepts aren't at odds really.
- 411111111111111 4y ago
  I mean it's not a particularly new idea, it's basically what the gig economy is all about and is very much the norm in low skilled labor with shitty payment. It's not by-second, but that's a way too small unit of measurement anyway, so that was a non starter to begin with.
- Koshkin 4y ago
  Being paid for what you have actually done is not a "stupid idea."
  - antiterra 4y ago
    If you have no control over the hours you have to work, could be called in at any time, or are not allowed to work for others at your discretion, a paid a base rate for being retained makes sense. Not to mention, for many jobs, time at work is not a measure of ‘how much work’ you’ve done and such a measure creates an incentive to be inefficient.
  - jodrellblank 4y ago
    It is a stupid idea in the sense that you can see everyone at the top of society financially, socially, influentially, does not have that apply to them or want it to apply to them. From landlords and business owners wanting to be paid for what other people have actually done, to singers and movie makers and authors wanting to be paid for every copy long after what they did, to personal branding wanting to be paid for putting "Michael Jordan" on clothing, to patent holders wanting to be paid for what they thought of, to license holders wanting to be paid for what they permit others to do, to conduits wanting to be paid for what travels through them, to governments wanting to tax what others do, to lobbied politicians wanting to be paid for not getting in someone's way. If the people 'above' you definitely don't want it for themselves, it's quite likely a stupid idea for you to accept them doing it to you. On the other side, business owners want to pay employees for "what they have actually done" miss the forest for the trees; leading to stories like the developers committing unfinished code, QA finding lots of bugs (for all the basic functionality that was never written), developers fixing those bugs, and hooray the metrics look great for activity but meaningful progress is through the floor and quality is nowhere to be seen. And keys pressed, minutes spent in meetings, reports written, are on the up - easily padded filler and busywork - and difficult to measure things like customer satisfaction, employee morale, creativity, design, planning, are on the down.
- ur-whale 4y ago
  > I want a salary. That's your opinion. You want safety and don't like risk. There are many folks that think like you. But thankfully, not everyone functions this way.
- bombastry 4y ago
  I really enjoyed the second example of paying Netflix by the second. The blockchain has invented movie rentals.
- blululu 4y ago
  I wouldn’t write it off that quickly. The reason we have a two week pay period is a matter of administrative costs. When these drop because they are automated with a computer you can now pay continuously. Why should you work two weeks on credit? On the flip side a payroll company could make decent money off the two week time arbitration.
  - jaclaz 4y ago
    The two week period is "typical" in US, in the EU countries usually payment for personnel is monthly, JFYI (though in some firms/fields there can be an "advance" around the 2nd week, usually less than half the pay).
maksimdrachov 4y ago
I would say I'm still very happy with my choice so far. I haven't written much due to being busy. Some things that happened after the first month that might be worth mentioning: - By working in the local co-working space (which I did for a month to get some additional contacts outside of my workplace), I've managed to get to meet quite a lot of interesting people. Once, the minister of Digital Innovation came to visit. He talked about his work/future projects, we could ask questions, he seemed pretty knowledgeable about his stuff. In general it seems to be pretty easy to get into contact with anyone if you have some question (be it government-related or startup-related). - A couple of weeks ago, the Estonian startup community organized a "freedom convoy" to Kyiv (pickup trucks for the army). I participated and since it was organized by Ragnar Sass (co-founder of a local unicorn called Pipedrive), I got the chance to hang out with a "real" entrepreneur. I found it a interesting experience, since I've always wondered if there is something special about successful entrepreneurs. My main observation has been that he did seem to be a very high energy kind of person, I guess that helps with building a successful startup. - I discovered there's a really sizeable French-speaking community in Tallinn. From most people I've heard the same reasons over and over: stifling bureaucracy and high taxes. - I'm noticing also lots of Italian people moving here. Just to give a balanced perspective, I'll try to also mention some downsides: - Coming from Belgium, I sometimes miss the architecture. Tallinn is mostly modern-looking, except for the old town (which I don't find myself in that often). Some of the new areas are actually quite nice-looking, but I still feel older architecture has more liveliness to it. - Due to the war/inflation, the prices have been rising noticeably lately. I'm not sure how to feel about this, but I guess this is something that is not just the case for Estonia, but also wider Europe. (Estonia did have the largest inflation numbers at one point though). We'll see how it evolves, at least I have more faith in the Estonian government than my previous Belgian one. In general, I think the main reason I'm happy to live here: Estonia feels like a country on a positive trajectory. Living in Belgium can be, at times, a bit of a downer: it feels like everyone is just trying to "maintain"; and on some level everyone agrees: the best days are behind us.
- LtWorf 4y ago
  Startup people do their best to convince others that their startup is the best and that things are going great. It might not be true.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

jacknews 4y ago

"To be fair, there is one notable exception: Imec, an R&D hub for nano- and digital technologies. This organization has succesfully spun-off multiple startups in its specialist field. However those are often based on specialization in a very narrow field of research. I’m more into the Silicon Valley-type of startups." Isn't this exactly what countries should be doing, funding emerging niche technologies? I assume by 'silicon valley-type' you mean facebook, twitter, uber, and the like? IMHO, many of these don't seem to add any real value to society, certainly not in proportion to how much money they attract.

stickfigure 4y ago
> don't seem to add any real value These comments make me angry. Thanks to Facebook, I keep in contact with a lot of friends who would otherwise have completely lost touch with. Thanks to Uber, I get comfortable rides from point A to point B, even in places where the taxi systems completely fail (and there are a lot of these, I have plenty of stories, even recent ones). I get enormous value from these services. You don't, fine. Stop projecting on others.
- nxtbl 4y ago
  So we're still getting the fb excuse/apologism. Anyone could have used - and many of us used - plain old email, then irc, various messengers et al before zuck came. Back then, at that time, there were other ways to keep in touch and still is, just much more. All of them are better in terms of privacy.
  - tetromino_ 4y ago
    Please tell me of one service that existed before Zuck came along that you could use to set up multi-directional live video streaming for a group event connecting the US and multiple locations across Eastern Europe and South Asia with mediocre internet connectivity, for several hours, for free, and that would be so simple to use that your elderly grandparents could join in. Please tell me of one service that existed before Zuck came along that automatically performed genuinely good machine translation of chat messages between two non-English languages. Please tell me of one service that existed before Zuck came along where you could, after moving to a new town or neighborhood where you know nobody, be certain that you would be able find active local groups for your non-nerdy social niche. Because these are all things I have recently used Facebook for. And while there are alternatives for some/all of them in the era after Facebook, in the era before Facebook, I don't think I would have been able to do them easily, or at all.

ur-whale 4y ago

> For the level of service offered by the Belgian government, I would argue the tax burden is quite high This is fairly standard for western Europe (with the exceptions of Scandinavia): very high tax burden, terrible government services. In other words: at best, you're not getting your money worth, at worst you're being sheared and milked by your government.

dukoid 4y ago
I think Switzerland is an exception, too: low tax burden and good government service in many areas.
- eatonphil 4y ago
  Very high cost of living though.
  - dukoid 4y ago
    That's similar in Scandinavia though.
    - eatonphil 4y ago
      I've not lived in either but I've traveled through Switzerland and Denmark (and a few other European countries) and hotels and food were 75% to 100% more expensive or so in Switzerland than anywhere else including Denmark. My brother lived in Switzerland and France (though not Scandinavia) and mostly confirmed that Switzerland has unnaturally high CoL for the area.
Aachen 4y ago
Does Scandinavia have a lower tax burden or better government services?
- dukoid 4y ago
  Better government services

Kalanos 4y ago

isn't estonia a top 3 target for russia right now?

mattnewton 4y ago
Estonia is in NATO and the EU right? I think a Russian invasion of a NATO country would be a problem if you lived anywhere in Europe, or the world really.
onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
Estonia is in NATO. That seems quite stupid. Who's number 1 and 2? The US and Germany?
- Kalanos 4y ago
  finland? moldova? georgia?
  - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
    Moldova and Georgia aren't in NATO. I'm not sure on the timeline - but Finland will soon be a NATO member. I don't think Finland has anything to worry about. Moldova, maybe. George - not being a border state with the EU - definitely.
eatonphil 4y ago
Estonia is in NATO. So seems doubtful it's a serious target.
- rwmj 4y ago
  Certainly one hopes, although one also hopes that Putin is acting rationally and is advised by people who can speak truth to power.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
4y ago

seydor 4y ago

I think the problem with estonia is that it's just not that attractive a place. I wish they could join forces with some southern european country (which have far more issues than belgium)

eatonphil 4y ago
I've never been there but I'm curious: in which ways do you mean unattractive? As in the buildings/architecture/landscape is ugly? The pay there is low? Government services are lacking/corrupt? Something else?
- seydor 4y ago
  cold I don't mean it's a bad place, but for europeans to move, they usually choose somewhere more exotic
  - machinekob 4y ago
    Cold (i dont think estonia is cold but whatever) > warm in times of global warming when you dont even have enough water to support nuclear reactors in France. South Europe (outside south France) is probably worst place to live if you care about 10+ years window and plan or have kids. You'll just let them out to live in 25% unemployment, high possibility of another immigration crisis and stagnant economy cause you prefere 40+ celsius over 25 in the middle of the day.
- Gravityloss 4y ago
  Don't know why someone would complain about Estonia? Haven't lived there but visited quite many times. Tallinn has a dense old town. Pärnu is a laid back walkable summer city with a great beach. Saarenmaa is calm and quiet. For negatives, they do lack mountains, there aree large boring pine forest parts in the middle and there are still, after 30 years, a lot of Soviet era semi ruined buildings that make at least me sad. (Buildings can be even older but they were not maintained for the 40+ years of Soviet occupation.)
tifik 4y ago

alberth 4y ago

Off-topic: for anyone who lives in Estonia, what is their eID system like? (For those unaware, Estonia is one of a few countries that has a government issued electronic ID for all citizens.)

TulliusCicero 4y ago
Estonia also has electronic voting that seems to work well. Wish more countries could be similar.
- asldjajlfkj 4y ago
  Electronic voting is a bad idea. Almost no upside, but lot of downside. Nobody can proof that the system works, nobody can keep it secure (noone cares about estionian elections, imagine the US...), nobody can proof authenticity in retrospect. And of course, they can’t really be anonymous. And for what? So that somebody that is too lazy or too disengaged to fill out a paper form or spend 10 minutes at a voting both can have a say in the countries direction?
  - alberth 4y ago
    > Nobody can proof that the system works, nobody can keep it secure (noone cares about estionian elections, imagine the US...), nobody can proof authenticity in retrospect. And of course, they can’t really be anonymous. Why do you believe none of this can be proofed or kept secure?
    - amanaplanacanal 4y ago
      I'm guessing they are talking about electronic voting in general, and not the specific system Estonia uses.
  - TulliusCicero 4y ago
    And yet it works fine in Estonia. Not everywhere has to be technologically backwards.

fooph 4y ago

> I tagged every one of our ministers (remember: 6 governments) that could have made a difference in solving this question. 1600 people saw the post, no one got back to me. > This might seem trivial, however to me this is part of a larger problem. The political class does not really care about improving the system as it is too busy with infighting. He left Belgium because some politicians he tagged on LinkedIn didn't reply to his post? Lol

rovr138 4y ago
I mean, he doesn't like how they do politics which affect him so he left. Is there a better way of dealing with the issue? He can't force a vote. He also doesn't have to stay. So he packed up and left. Sounds like a great way of dealing with people in power. Imagine if we all had that flexibility. 'We'll just pack up and leave. Good luck with your bullshit and governing over nothing.'
- insightcheck 4y ago
  It's a valid option, but an alternative is to stay in the country and try to lobby and advocate for change within the country. There is a certain point where lobbying and advocacy can be futile, and emigration is a stronger option. For example, in Venezuela's recent history, it went from a prosperous country to an economically devastated one, and the population fell in the 2010s as a result [0]. However, Belgium is in a much better place in terms of political stability. It's far more likely that advocacy can be effective. However, it takes a lot of time, and you can give up a lot of potential earnings by staying and trying to advocate. If one has an attachment to a country, especially as a citizen, one can find a lot of value in trying to introduce reforms instead of emigrating. [0] https://www.google.com/search?q=Venezuela+population+over+time&client=safari&ved=0ahUKEwiIodeQ6tr5AhVuATQIHYcRAfwQ4dUDCAw&oq=Venezuela+population+over+time&sclient=gws-wiz https://www.google.com/search?q=Venezuela+population+over+ti...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
4y ago

jb1991 4y ago

These kinds of apples to oranges comparisons are a little ridiculous. Estonia is a tiny country compared to Belgium, which is also small, but is obviously going to have a much different set of trade-offs. There are so many other factors to consider besides those listed in this article. And ultimately, being an entrepreneur is not really about where you live, it’s what you choose to do. People who think that if they move somewhere it’ll suddenly make them into the person they want to be are usually in for a disappointment. The example of a place to find standard contracts is also frankly trivial. Anyone who wants to start a company quickly figures out what they need to do in the environment in which they live, and ideally they will involve locals who understand the system very well. Just hiring a good local accountant who understands the laws is going to be of benefit regardless of any websites that make your research easy. Far more important is living in a place that inspires you to do your best work, that’s ultimately the most important ingredient.

Dracophoenix 4y ago
> And ultimately, being an entrepreneur is not really about where you live, it’s what you choose to do. People who think that if they move somewhere it’ll suddenly make them into the person they want to be are usually in for a disappointment. Where you live dictates the laws, culture, and tax policies that you're expected to follow and will be punished for breaking. There are many entrepreneurs in Africa but one rarely hears of any successful ones internationally that don't come from South Africa. Obvious reasons for this would be ethnopolitical turmoil, lack of personal liberties, and kleptocratic dictatorships. While Belgium is a far cry from a failed state, policies that interfere with one's personal goals will require a change in geography, at least for the foreseeable future. It would be great if entrepreneurs could be residents of the moon for tax purposes while stating put, but no such e-citizenship program exist. The example of a place to find standard contracts is also frankly trivial. Anyone who wants to start a company quickly figures out what they need to do in the environment in which they live, and ideally they will involve locals who understand the system very well. Just hiring a good local accountant who understands the laws is going to be of benefit regardless of any websites that make your research easy. Far more important is living in a place that inspires you to do your best work, that’s ultimately the most important ingredient.

vladharbuz 4y ago

Moving to a country based on how many "unicorns" there are in that country seems uniquely stupid to me. Better healthcare? Wonderful. More like-minded people who share your values and interests? Sounds great! But a valuation means literally nothing. You could just as well have a country full of "unicorns" that absolutely do not improve society and result in crippling socioeconomic inequality. I also don't understand the point about the bureaucratic German system. I've lived in Germany, and yes, the bureaucracy can at times be annoying. But are you really going to base where you live your life on how difficult it is to incorporate a company, an activity you will do at most a few times? I also hope that you are now in a country that will help you "become a founder more quickly and increase the odds of [your] startup being successful", but I trust you already know that these odds will be overwhelmingly decided by your own ideas and work, not by the specific legal details of limited liability companies in your jurisdiction. I truly hope OP finds a lot of happiness and a wonderful life in Estonia, but if they do, I don't think it will have been for the reasons they expected. (Note: nothing against Estonia, I've always wanted to visit)

Wronnay 4y ago
I agree with you. I own a GmbH in Germany and many things, which you are required to do, make total sense. (E.g. for government supported founding you will need a business plan - but that you need anyway, even if you talk to private investors) There are a few annoying specialities (like the Reverse Charge VAT) but most of them are EU wide things.
option 4y ago
It is about future. “how fast is it to incorporate” and “number of unicorns” etc. will likely result in better economic activity and standard of living in the future. “annoying bureaucracy” will likely result in degradation and lower economic activity in the future.
- Wronnay 4y ago
  If you look at things like the GDPR, Reverse Charge VAT and other stuff the EU has planned, then you will realize that is an EU wide problem with “annoying bureaucracy”. So moving from one EU country to another doesn't solve this issue. Also, Germany has the most political power in the EU because they have the most population - so the same shitty things German politicians plan for their own country have a big possibility to become EU standards.

mkl95 4y ago

> For the level of service offered by the Belgian government, I would argue the tax burden is quite high I live in another EU country, and I agree. It's difficult for me to see institutions such as healthcare fall apart while the government is taking a large amount of my salary from my employer and myself every month. One of the biggest reasons I struggle with it is lack of transparency. Something as simple as a quarterly breakdown of what my money is being spent on along with a feedback form would make it much easier to cope.

boris 4y ago

One thing that is unique about Estonia is its corporate tax system. Specifically, a business does not pay any tax on profit that it does not distribute as dividents. Meaning that any profit that you re-invest into the business (or just save for the rainy day) is not taxed. It's hard to appreciate what a game changer this is unless you've experienced the traditional system with capitalization of assets, depreciation, etc. BTW, if anyone else knows of other countries with a similar tax system, please share (I did a bit of research but couldn't find any).

thelittleone 4y ago
How about a free zone in the UAE?
chongli 4y ago
a business does not pay any tax on profit that it does not distribute as dividents Can a business get around this by re-purchasing shares from the open market?
- skeletal88 4y ago
  Yes, but how long can you do that? Also, our local stock exchange has listed only a few dozen companies.
  - chongli 4y ago
    As long as you want. When the share prices go up you do stock splits.
    - skeletal88 4y ago
      Private persons have to pay income tax when they sell their shares for a profit. So there is no way to avoid the income tax and getmoney out of the company without taxes.
      - Scoundreller 4y ago

bovermyer 4y ago

My wife and I considered moving to Estonia awhile back. One of the major things that convinced us against it was the safety issue - Estonia shares a border with Russia. Estonia has been a soccerball between Germany and Russia in the past, and Russia's current ambitions could very easily expand to include the Baltic states.

eatonphil 4y ago
Did you move to a different NATO state instead?
fumblebee 4y ago
Estonia is in NATO, an attack against one Ally is considered as an attack against all Allies. Maybe I'm trivialising the issue, but that fact alone seems a large enough deterrent to any potential Russian offensive.
- bovermyer 4y ago
  It's a big deterrent, yeah, but.... Putin doesn't seem rock-solid in the sanity department.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
rob74 4y ago
I don't think Estonia (or the other Baltic States) are in concrete danger - I think Putin specifically attacked Ukraine because he felt he could get away with it (actually he did mostly get away with the annexation of Crimea etc. in 2014), but that the window of opportunity might be closing because Ukraine had a very clear target of joining NATO. The Baltic States are already NATO members, so their situation is completely different.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

nuccy 4y ago

I frequently hear about "startup-favourable climate" in Estonia, but how good it really is and at what stage. A good analogy may be tourism. When you come as a tourist to a village in a middle of nowhere you get all the hospitality and attention. When you come to Paris, shop sellers can yell at you 15 minutes before the shop is closing to get you out immediately, since they simply don't care - there is a constant flow of tourists, so individual ones don't matter any more for them. At what stage Estonia is with startups?

ricardobayes 4y ago
They are at the '20% company tax' stage
- nuccy 4y ago
  Table 3 in [1] seems to suggest that there are many other places (some in Europe/EU/NATO) where company tax is lower than 20%. From the blog post it seems author moves for the attitude rather. 1. https://taxfoundation.org/publications/corporate-tax-rates-around-the-world/ https://taxfoundation.org/publications/corporate-tax-rates-a...

Cyberdog 4y ago

Can someone explain to me, in little tiny words, the "e-Residency" thing? As an American, if I become an "e-resident" of Estonia, I can then open a business in Estonia, right? But then aren't I just making myself subject to the regulations and taxes of two governments instead of just one? How is this simplifying things or reducing costs?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nivertech 4y ago
IMO this is not for people from developed/"western" countries. This is mainly for people living in countries that have problems connecting to the western banking system, or with a lot of bureaucracy and/or corruption. In most developed countries, an Estonian e-Residency company falls under something like a "Foreign Controlled Corporation" and can be fully taxed just like a local one. This will surely create a lot of legal and accounting problems. Perhaps this is an option for crypto startups that have trouble opening bank accounts in their countries.

jeroenhd 4y ago

What does your startup actually do? Your linked Github and Twitter only led me to hackernews.ee but I doubt that's what you're trying to build a company around. I see a reference to Unikie on your LinkedIn but that's much more than a startup at this point; it's got over 250 workers and has acquired several other companies if https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/unikie https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/unikie is to be believed. Maybe you're working on something behind the scenes that you're not ready to reveal yet, but I don't see the connection. Not every tech company is a startup, nor does it have to be. The digitalisation found in Estonia is nice, but I haven't really heard of anything that the Dutch government doesn't allow you to do online as well.

tiktaktow 4y ago

Having lived both in Estonia and Belgium, I think this is just an initial attraction. Estonia is a strange country. While the tech-sector is booming, other sectors are struggling. Average blue collar jobs pay is similar to few 3rd world countries. The ageing population coupled with slow birth rate, brings other problems for the state. Health service sector is deteriorating with almost all health professionals eyeing to migrate to West Europe and USA or even Finland. Public infrastructure is bad, don't even have to go more than 10km outside of Tallinn center to notice it. The tech and startup scene is indeed one of the best in Europe, but the tech utopia fascination will wear off in few years unless you succeed in becoming filthy rich. On the long run, you will start noticing the overall quality of life is much much better in Belgium.

t_mann 4y ago

Great to see that at least some places in the EU seem to be doing it right. The startup ecosystem is a shame for such a developed place.

sam_lowry_ 4y ago

I suspect that the real reason is that you are a Russian speaker, moving to Estonia to connect with all the new Russian emigrants that flocked there before and especially after 24 February 2022. Being EU citizen, you can look them down, feeding your narcissism. You may also profit from their desperation as they are being pushed back to Russia because Estonia cancel their visas. It's also a great moment to hit a girl or two that would usually be out your league.

froavei 4y ago

I'm planning to move to Estonia to start a software product company so this is a very interesting discussion. I was already aware that Ireland and Hungary have lower corporate tax than Estonia but reading the comments I stopped to ponder why I'm not starting the company there instead. One reason is that I don't have to begin paying (much) tax in Estonia until I start taking money out of the company, which could be many years into the future. Another reason is cultural: I admit to not knowing all that much about Hungarian culture, but being from Northern Europe I think I will like it better in Estonia and fit in better. Ireland is just too far away. Also I'm not sure if Ireland being an English-speaking country is only a good thing. I prefer to keep a safe distance from the more toxic parts of Silicon Valley culture (just see what happened to Base Camp).

jessegeens 4y ago

Just FYI: Belgium has 4 unicorns, not 2 (Odoo, Deliverect, Collibra and Team.blue). We also have a similar thing to the PayPal mafia in Belgium: the Netlog mafia (with people like Lorenz Bogaert). Greetings from a fellow KUL FirW Alum ;)

maksimdrachov 4y ago
:D