6 ms·

At home, I've never connected my TV to my network. The few firmware updates I've needed to do were applied using a thumb drive, and I use an AppleTV as my inte

by uptown 4y ago

At home, I've never connected my TV to my network. The few firmware updates I've needed to do were applied using a thumb drive, and I use an AppleTV as my interface. When I travel, I bring along an AppleTV and plug the HDMI port into their set. This lets me keep the services I subscribe-to and use them with their display. This has worked great until my most-recent rental, which had a RokuTV -- presumably setup on Wifi. When content was streaming from my AppleTV, Roku would overlay a panel along the bottom-part of the screen proposing that I can watch what I'm currently watching from a variety of other providers. This must mean that the TV set is analyzing the video or audio signal to fingerprint what the content contained, then matching it against a library of content to feed into its profile of my use. This is the first time I've seen something like this. I'd always assumed that if you used the TV's UI and if it was connected to the internet, then you'd probably be subject to their ads and data analysis, but it never crossed my mind that they'd perform the same data-analysis over any signal passing through its silicon. Is this commonplace or is Roku the first of what's likely to be many doing the same?

WASDx 4y ago
This is spyware.
Aardwolf 4y ago
> The few firmware updates I've needed to do were applied using a thumb drive What kind of firmware updates do you need to do on it, when its only purpose is to act as a screen?
- traspler 4y ago
  There can be all kinds of fixes and features in the FW for the various display modes. From SDR to HDR to audio settings.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Most of the firmware upgrades are to keep the “smart” parts working, but sometimes they fix actual bugs.
- uptown 4y ago
  >What kind of firmware updates do you need to do on it, when its only purpose is to act as a screen? My display had an issue where the video modes necessary for the XBOX Series X were not working properly. The display would drop-out in some 4K modes. It's stable now, so I haven't checked/updated anything in about a year.
- Chouhada 4y ago
  > What kind of firmware updates do you need to do on it, when its only purpose is to act as a screen? On some screens, signal processing has been significantly improved in later firmware versions. New features are also not uncommon, such as VRR and HFR being added after release[1]. This is particularity nice for modern consoles. [1] https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1637751601 https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=...
- brewdad 4y ago
  My Sony TV came with the newest ATSC 3.0 TV tuner hardware. The software wasn't fully QC'd at launch. They put out a firmware update about 2 months after I bought mine to fully enable the tuner software and hardware. Otherwise, it's been app updates and some improved HDR processing.
phil21 4y ago
> Is this commonplace or is Roku the first of what's likely to be many doing the same? As far as I can tell, it's not only commonplace but ubiquitous for any new TV you buy these days. I recently moved and had to buy a number of TV sets over the years to outfit various guest rooms. All LG and Samsung TVs I've setup over the past 3 years have a "feature" like this you can manually disable if you dig down through menus enough. Then every firmware update the flag gets reset to enabled of course :)
- SergeAx 4y ago
  My LG TV plays movies from USB stick and never tried a trick like this. Not gonna lie, those were mostly relatively old movies, like LOTR or Heat, but also latest Predator installment.
- MaxikCZ 4y ago
  > Then every firmware update the flag gets reset to enabled of course :) This should be criminal
marcinzm 4y ago
>At home, I've never connected my TV to my network The next (already there?) steps are the TV automatically scanning for open wifi network to leverage and/or having a built in 4g connection.
- chaostheory 4y ago
  Not everyone lives in higher density housing, so open wifi networks are not always a given. Also a built-in cellular modem would be antithetical to having a lower cost TV set based on ad subsidies. I would worry more about mesh networks like Amazon sidewalk
  - boring_twenties 4y ago
    Amazon has had "free" cellular service in their Kindles for over a decade, I'm pretty sure TVs have more margin than that.
- dmurray 4y ago
  Or partnerships between the TV company and the ISPs, to put additional wireless networks on their consumer routers that are accessible to the TVs.
  - runnerup 4y ago
    Or Amazon Sidewalk for the mesh network version of this.
  - fmajid 4y ago
    Comcast does this in its routers, and no longer allows you to opt-out. They also have all the advertising ecosystem integration, of course.
    - sangnoir 4y ago
      That's why one should never use ISP-provided routers. Since ISPs can update/control devices connected to their network, buy a modem without WiFi: anything downstream of that is your network.
scarface74 4y ago
I love my ATV 4K. But it’s useless for traveling since hotels require you to login and the AppleTV doesn’t have a browser. The Roku sticks get around this by temporarily exposing a pass through wifi connection that you can connect to from your phone/computer and log in to your hotel’s wifi. The only work around with the AppleTV is to buy a second travel router.
- js2 4y ago
  With tvOS 15.4, "Captive Wi-Fi network support on tvOS allows you to use your iPhone or iPad to connect your Apple TV to networks that need additional sign-in steps, like at hotels or dorms." https://developer.apple.com/documentation/tvos-release-notes/tvos-15_4-release-notes https://developer.apple.com/documentation/tvos-release-notes...
  - scarface74 4y ago
    I did not know that. Thanks
  - darknavi 4y ago
    Wow this is great, thanks for posting this!
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Steltek 4y ago
  For travel, I have a Raspberry Pi with a second wifi stick to transmute hotel wifi into my own local network. This avoids having to modify every phone/tablet/Chromebook/Switch the family has in tow or fight with buggy hotspots. I keep meaning to add a VPN back to home (mostly for performance) but I haven't got around to it yet. An upgrade I keep looking for is an external directional antenna so I can get a stronger signal when RVing.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    You’re really over complicating things… A travel router will do the trick. https://a.co/d/4Y6UwOE https://a.co/d/4Y6UwOE
a4isms 4y ago
> I'd always assumed that if you used the TV's UI and if it was connected to the internet, then you'd probably be subject to their ads and data analysis, but it never crossed my mind that they'd perform the same data-analysis over any signal passing through its silicon. This is discussed in TFA. It's "ACR" (Automatic Content Recognition), and it applies to anything you watch on that TV, via any mechanism you try. Yes, if you hook up your AppleTV and look at your own videos, the TV is watching what you watch. Today, it's comparing a fingerprint to a database. Tomorrow a new model or a firmware update will have it shipping your pixels to the mothership and doing things like determining who else watched the same video. And if this isn't enough, you also have to ask yourself: What is your SmartTV doing with the camera facing your hotel room and the built-in microphone? If a manufacturer uses ACR on content you brought in through the HDMI port, do you trust them with a camera and microphone pointing into your hotel room or home? If you do trust them not to abuse that, do you trust them to keep all their TVs up-to-date with security patches to prevent hackers from exploiting them and taking over the cameras and microphones? --- I can do this all day. Remember, it's not paranoia if there really is a trillion-dollar surveillance capitalism industry out there buying and selling data, and laundering data so that companies can buy it while having plausible deniability that they were knowingly involved in any illegal or brand-damaging shenanigans.
stevage 4y ago
I'm really glad that our "smart TV" just pre-dates all of this stuff. It can't connect to a network - it doesn't have that functionality. Firmware updates? No idea if there are any. Yuck, yuck, yuck.
- vonseel 4y ago
  How is your TV a "smart TV" if it doesn't connect to networks?
ezfe 4y ago
>When content was streaming from my AppleTV, Roku would overlay a panel along the bottom-part of the screen proposing that I can watch what I'm currently watching from a variety of other providers. This must mean that the TV set is analyzing the video or audio signal to fingerprint what the content contained, then matching it against a library of content to feed into its profile of my use. My Roku TV specifically said it didn't analyze HDMI inputs, only Roku channel watching
- julianlam 4y ago
Markoff 4y ago
same, except I go even further and instead other online thingy I just use USB driver loaded with movies/TV shows for me and kids, I don't understand nowadays people addiction to streaming, offline experience is much better/smoother, i decide what I wanna watch on computer and just load it to drive but I guess some people can have moral reasons to pay for some service and/or it's not legal in their country to download and watch video content for free (though many EU countries allow this)

by uptown 4y ago

WASDx 4y ago

This is spyware.

Aardwolf 4y ago

> The few firmware updates I've needed to do were applied using a thumb drive What kind of firmware updates do you need to do on it, when its only purpose is to act as a screen?

traspler 4y ago
There can be all kinds of fixes and features in the FW for the various display modes. From SDR to HDR to audio settings.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Most of the firmware upgrades are to keep the “smart” parts working, but sometimes they fix actual bugs.
uptown 4y ago
>What kind of firmware updates do you need to do on it, when its only purpose is to act as a screen? My display had an issue where the video modes necessary for the XBOX Series X were not working properly. The display would drop-out in some 4K modes. It's stable now, so I haven't checked/updated anything in about a year.
Chouhada 4y ago
> What kind of firmware updates do you need to do on it, when its only purpose is to act as a screen? On some screens, signal processing has been significantly improved in later firmware versions. New features are also not uncommon, such as VRR and HFR being added after release[1]. This is particularity nice for modern consoles. [1] https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1637751601 https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=...
brewdad 4y ago
My Sony TV came with the newest ATSC 3.0 TV tuner hardware. The software wasn't fully QC'd at launch. They put out a firmware update about 2 months after I bought mine to fully enable the tuner software and hardware. Otherwise, it's been app updates and some improved HDR processing.

phil21 4y ago

> Is this commonplace or is Roku the first of what's likely to be many doing the same? As far as I can tell, it's not only commonplace but ubiquitous for any new TV you buy these days. I recently moved and had to buy a number of TV sets over the years to outfit various guest rooms. All LG and Samsung TVs I've setup over the past 3 years have a "feature" like this you can manually disable if you dig down through menus enough. Then every firmware update the flag gets reset to enabled of course :)

SergeAx 4y ago
My LG TV plays movies from USB stick and never tried a trick like this. Not gonna lie, those were mostly relatively old movies, like LOTR or Heat, but also latest Predator installment.
MaxikCZ 4y ago
> Then every firmware update the flag gets reset to enabled of course :) This should be criminal

marcinzm 4y ago

>At home, I've never connected my TV to my network The next (already there?) steps are the TV automatically scanning for open wifi network to leverage and/or having a built in 4g connection.

chaostheory 4y ago
Not everyone lives in higher density housing, so open wifi networks are not always a given. Also a built-in cellular modem would be antithetical to having a lower cost TV set based on ad subsidies. I would worry more about mesh networks like Amazon sidewalk
- boring_twenties 4y ago
  Amazon has had "free" cellular service in their Kindles for over a decade, I'm pretty sure TVs have more margin than that.
dmurray 4y ago
Or partnerships between the TV company and the ISPs, to put additional wireless networks on their consumer routers that are accessible to the TVs.
- runnerup 4y ago
  Or Amazon Sidewalk for the mesh network version of this.
- fmajid 4y ago
  Comcast does this in its routers, and no longer allows you to opt-out. They also have all the advertising ecosystem integration, of course.
  - sangnoir 4y ago
    That's why one should never use ISP-provided routers. Since ISPs can update/control devices connected to their network, buy a modem without WiFi: anything downstream of that is your network.

scarface74 4y ago

I love my ATV 4K. But it’s useless for traveling since hotels require you to login and the AppleTV doesn’t have a browser. The Roku sticks get around this by temporarily exposing a pass through wifi connection that you can connect to from your phone/computer and log in to your hotel’s wifi. The only work around with the AppleTV is to buy a second travel router.

js2 4y ago
With tvOS 15.4, "Captive Wi-Fi network support on tvOS allows you to use your iPhone or iPad to connect your Apple TV to networks that need additional sign-in steps, like at hotels or dorms." https://developer.apple.com/documentation/tvos-release-notes/tvos-15_4-release-notes https://developer.apple.com/documentation/tvos-release-notes...
- scarface74 4y ago
  I did not know that. Thanks
- darknavi 4y ago
  Wow this is great, thanks for posting this!
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Steltek 4y ago
For travel, I have a Raspberry Pi with a second wifi stick to transmute hotel wifi into my own local network. This avoids having to modify every phone/tablet/Chromebook/Switch the family has in tow or fight with buggy hotspots. I keep meaning to add a VPN back to home (mostly for performance) but I haven't got around to it yet. An upgrade I keep looking for is an external directional antenna so I can get a stronger signal when RVing.
- scarface74 4y ago
  You’re really over complicating things… A travel router will do the trick. https://a.co/d/4Y6UwOE https://a.co/d/4Y6UwOE

a4isms 4y ago

> I'd always assumed that if you used the TV's UI and if it was connected to the internet, then you'd probably be subject to their ads and data analysis, but it never crossed my mind that they'd perform the same data-analysis over any signal passing through its silicon. This is discussed in TFA. It's "ACR" (Automatic Content Recognition), and it applies to anything you watch on that TV, via any mechanism you try. Yes, if you hook up your AppleTV and look at your own videos, the TV is watching what you watch. Today, it's comparing a fingerprint to a database. Tomorrow a new model or a firmware update will have it shipping your pixels to the mothership and doing things like determining who else watched the same video. And if this isn't enough, you also have to ask yourself: What is your SmartTV doing with the camera facing your hotel room and the built-in microphone? If a manufacturer uses ACR on content you brought in through the HDMI port, do you trust them with a camera and microphone pointing into your hotel room or home? If you do trust them not to abuse that, do you trust them to keep all their TVs up-to-date with security patches to prevent hackers from exploiting them and taking over the cameras and microphones? --- I can do this all day. Remember, it's not paranoia if there really is a trillion-dollar surveillance capitalism industry out there buying and selling data, and laundering data so that companies can buy it while having plausible deniability that they were knowingly involved in any illegal or brand-damaging shenanigans.

stevage 4y ago

I'm really glad that our "smart TV" just pre-dates all of this stuff. It can't connect to a network - it doesn't have that functionality. Firmware updates? No idea if there are any. Yuck, yuck, yuck.

vonseel 4y ago
How is your TV a "smart TV" if it doesn't connect to networks?

ezfe 4y ago

>When content was streaming from my AppleTV, Roku would overlay a panel along the bottom-part of the screen proposing that I can watch what I'm currently watching from a variety of other providers. This must mean that the TV set is analyzing the video or audio signal to fingerprint what the content contained, then matching it against a library of content to feed into its profile of my use. My Roku TV specifically said it didn't analyze HDMI inputs, only Roku channel watching

julianlam 4y ago

Markoff 4y ago

same, except I go even further and instead other online thingy I just use USB driver loaded with movies/TV shows for me and kids, I don't understand nowadays people addiction to streaming, offline experience is much better/smoother, i decide what I wanna watch on computer and just load it to drive but I guess some people can have moral reasons to pay for some service and/or it's not legal in their country to download and watch video content for free (though many EU countries allow this)