7 ms·

I suspect they never did care about this issue at all but they're trying to walk a tightrope trying not to piss off foreign investors (IIRC Goldman Sachs partne

by pydry 4y ago

I suspect they never did care about this issue at all but they're trying to walk a tightrope trying not to piss off foreign investors (IIRC Goldman Sachs partners had something to say about this law) and the core PAP voter base, which tends to skew heavily in favor of "conservative/family values" and against this. Then again, times may be a a-changing.

linuxdude314 4y ago
I like how he literally has no need to do this, and in spite of the concerns you mentioned is doing it anyway. I lived in Singapore for 3 months, and as a gay man never felt unwelcome or unsafe. I benefit from other privileges that probably affected my experience, but Singapore is a pretty harmonious place. Times are changing.
- ixfo 4y ago
  There were some legal challenges likely for the relevant statute, and doing it this way is much more in keeping with Singapore's approach to keeping politics "in politics". It's carefully coordinated and done in a way that most conservatives can't really attack. In line with .sg's usual approach to doing things carefully and slowly in a controlled manner.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  The issue has always been “what if.” Singapore is no stranger to selective enforcement and using the legal system against critics (often via things like defamation lawsuits). This particular law was never weaponized in that way, but there was never anything stopping them from doing so.
- pydry 4y ago
  Good for you. I had gay friends who did not feel safe when I lived there - not exactly from 377A (the policy has been unenforced for years) but maybe losing their positions if it came out. They didnt go to pink dot because they were afraid of appearing in any photos.
- yomkippur 4y ago
  What's funny about LGBTQ friendly Western countries is that the risk of assault is higher than places that aren't LGBTQ friendly in Singapore or Japan. So you can have on the surface level, diversity but offer no safeguards or protection against assault or even murder in the case of transwoman in the West. Thailand? No open LGBTQ legislation or politics like you have in the West but it remains the most trans friendly country in the world.
  - mikkelam 4y ago
    Do you have any sources for those exorbitant claims?
- HeyZuess 4y ago
  I lived in Singapore for a few years, I moved there from a western country. I found that even given the laws at that stage that the homosexual community was fairly open, and accepted. The majority of my wife's friends are gay, and open about it. Singapore is a nice and safe countries but there are definitely trade offs.
- jhanschoo 4y ago
  Note that citizens may feel more acutely about systemic discrimination against homosexuals. A large factor is subsidized public housing, which a large fraction of the citizens live in. Being married and having children gives you priority for public housing, but only heterosexual unions being recognized as marriage excludes families of homosexual partners from receiving the same support.
yomkippur 4y ago
Why would Goldman Sachs care about this? It's funny to me because same sex relationships were never an issue until the arrival of Judeo-Christian values via colonialism from the West. Japan also had a long history of same sex culture, as did Korea and many other countries. Then those cultures that imposed this discrimination turn around to poke fun at Islam for burqini or burka when as a secular outsider, its no different than Judeo/Christian/Abrahamic religious attitude and persecution of same sex relationship.
- dan-robertson 4y ago
  Goldman Sachs is a stand-in for the kinds of international companies that might have offices in Singapore. Being an international finance hub is valuable to singapore and those companies will often employ lots of western expats in the country. Those expats are likely going to care about this and they will make their employers care somewhat about this too.
  - jrockway 4y ago
    New York and London are also international financial hubs, and don't seem to have problems with people being gay. I'm not sure we can blame investment banks for this one. For example, sure it's marketing copy, but I don't think a company that wanted to make laws against being gay would bother with this: https://www.goldmansachs.com/our-commitments/diversity-and-inclusion/ https://www.goldmansachs.com/our-commitments/diversity-and-i...
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      The people you're replying to are saying that companies like Goldman would greatly prefer for gay sex to be legal.
      - jrockway 4y ago
        I see. I was so confused by the original comment that I guess my brain stopped working.
fatcat500 4y ago
> Goldman Sachs partners had something to say about this law Don't you think it's absurd that an investment bank has influence over a country's social policy? For all the cheerleading we do about democracy, we also don't seem to care that behemoth US companies exert their influence over other countries, thus diluting the value of a citizen's vote. No one is concerned that there is no wall of separation between business and politics.
- tpmx 4y ago
  For all the cheerleading we do about democracy Singapore isn't really that democratic though. Somehow it kind of works for them. https://freedomhouse.org/country/singapore/freedom-world/2022 https://freedomhouse.org/country/singapore/freedom-world/202... Singapore’s parliamentary political system has been dominated by the ruling People’s Action Party (PAP) and the family of current prime minister Lee Hsien Loong since 1959. The electoral and legal framework that the PAP has constructed allows for some political pluralism, but it constrains the growth of opposition parties and limits freedoms of expression, assembly, and association.
  - nullhack 4y ago
    Yes, I'm always curious who "we" and "our" means in these cases... As a tangent, the USA is a Democratic Republic, and yet all I ever hear is threats to "Our Democracy" I never hear about threats to "Our Republic"
    - SllX 4y ago
      That’s because they’re the same thing in different languages. I learned the same propaganda as you; the distinction taught to us was basically made up.
      - nullhack 4y ago
        Per google search ".. etymology" demos: the people; -cratia: power, rule; Greek. res: entity, concern; publicus: of the people, public; Latin "Rule of the People" and "Concern of the People" sound SIMILAR, sure! Just because a mechanic is concerned for your car, does not mean he owns it... I think it's lazy of you to call this dichotomy "propoganda" without offering any definitions or etymology.

by pydry 4y ago

linuxdude314 4y ago

I like how he literally has no need to do this, and in spite of the concerns you mentioned is doing it anyway. I lived in Singapore for 3 months, and as a gay man never felt unwelcome or unsafe. I benefit from other privileges that probably affected my experience, but Singapore is a pretty harmonious place. Times are changing.

ixfo 4y ago
There were some legal challenges likely for the relevant statute, and doing it this way is much more in keeping with Singapore's approach to keeping politics "in politics". It's carefully coordinated and done in a way that most conservatives can't really attack. In line with .sg's usual approach to doing things carefully and slowly in a controlled manner.
bobthepanda 4y ago
The issue has always been “what if.” Singapore is no stranger to selective enforcement and using the legal system against critics (often via things like defamation lawsuits). This particular law was never weaponized in that way, but there was never anything stopping them from doing so.
pydry 4y ago
Good for you. I had gay friends who did not feel safe when I lived there - not exactly from 377A (the policy has been unenforced for years) but maybe losing their positions if it came out. They didnt go to pink dot because they were afraid of appearing in any photos.
yomkippur 4y ago
What's funny about LGBTQ friendly Western countries is that the risk of assault is higher than places that aren't LGBTQ friendly in Singapore or Japan. So you can have on the surface level, diversity but offer no safeguards or protection against assault or even murder in the case of transwoman in the West. Thailand? No open LGBTQ legislation or politics like you have in the West but it remains the most trans friendly country in the world.
- mikkelam 4y ago
  Do you have any sources for those exorbitant claims?
HeyZuess 4y ago
I lived in Singapore for a few years, I moved there from a western country. I found that even given the laws at that stage that the homosexual community was fairly open, and accepted. The majority of my wife's friends are gay, and open about it. Singapore is a nice and safe countries but there are definitely trade offs.
jhanschoo 4y ago
Note that citizens may feel more acutely about systemic discrimination against homosexuals. A large factor is subsidized public housing, which a large fraction of the citizens live in. Being married and having children gives you priority for public housing, but only heterosexual unions being recognized as marriage excludes families of homosexual partners from receiving the same support.

yomkippur 4y ago

Why would Goldman Sachs care about this? It's funny to me because same sex relationships were never an issue until the arrival of Judeo-Christian values via colonialism from the West. Japan also had a long history of same sex culture, as did Korea and many other countries. Then those cultures that imposed this discrimination turn around to poke fun at Islam for burqini or burka when as a secular outsider, its no different than Judeo/Christian/Abrahamic religious attitude and persecution of same sex relationship.

dan-robertson 4y ago
Goldman Sachs is a stand-in for the kinds of international companies that might have offices in Singapore. Being an international finance hub is valuable to singapore and those companies will often employ lots of western expats in the country. Those expats are likely going to care about this and they will make their employers care somewhat about this too.
- jrockway 4y ago
  New York and London are also international financial hubs, and don't seem to have problems with people being gay. I'm not sure we can blame investment banks for this one. For example, sure it's marketing copy, but I don't think a company that wanted to make laws against being gay would bother with this: https://www.goldmansachs.com/our-commitments/diversity-and-inclusion/ https://www.goldmansachs.com/our-commitments/diversity-and-i...
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    The people you're replying to are saying that companies like Goldman would greatly prefer for gay sex to be legal.
    - jrockway 4y ago
      I see. I was so confused by the original comment that I guess my brain stopped working.

fatcat500 4y ago

> Goldman Sachs partners had something to say about this law Don't you think it's absurd that an investment bank has influence over a country's social policy? For all the cheerleading we do about democracy, we also don't seem to care that behemoth US companies exert their influence over other countries, thus diluting the value of a citizen's vote. No one is concerned that there is no wall of separation between business and politics.

tpmx 4y ago
For all the cheerleading we do about democracy Singapore isn't really that democratic though. Somehow it kind of works for them. https://freedomhouse.org/country/singapore/freedom-world/2022 https://freedomhouse.org/country/singapore/freedom-world/202... Singapore’s parliamentary political system has been dominated by the ruling People’s Action Party (PAP) and the family of current prime minister Lee Hsien Loong since 1959. The electoral and legal framework that the PAP has constructed allows for some political pluralism, but it constrains the growth of opposition parties and limits freedoms of expression, assembly, and association.
- nullhack 4y ago
  Yes, I'm always curious who "we" and "our" means in these cases... As a tangent, the USA is a Democratic Republic, and yet all I ever hear is threats to "Our Democracy" I never hear about threats to "Our Republic"
  - SllX 4y ago
    That’s because they’re the same thing in different languages. I learned the same propaganda as you; the distinction taught to us was basically made up.
    - nullhack 4y ago
      Per google search ".. etymology" demos: the people; -cratia: power, rule; Greek. res: entity, concern; publicus: of the people, public; Latin "Rule of the People" and "Concern of the People" sound SIMILAR, sure! Just because a mechanic is concerned for your car, does not mean he owns it... I think it's lazy of you to call this dichotomy "propoganda" without offering any definitions or etymology.