5 ms·

False. The problem is so complex we have to resort to guessing / brute force to solve it; if it's so easy, give me a closed-form solution so I can become rich.

Josde 4y ago
While that is true, I think the point that other users are trying to make is that wording it as "a complex mathematical problem being solved" makes it look like that work is doing something useful when it really is not.
- lottin 4y ago
  It's worse than that, they're aren't solving anything at all. They're taking part in a lottery, in which participants have to guess a number, and the winner gets to update the ledger. Nobody is solving complex mathematical problems.
  - WFHRenaissance 4y ago
    They’re brute-forcing the solution to a mathematical puzzle.
  - baobabKoodaa 4y ago
    - pixelbro 4y ago
      Oh, get off it. He's not "pretending to disagree", merely providing further context for the anti-utility of the PoW algorithm. The point is that the colloquial understanding of "solving a problem" implies more utility than what is actually happening, which is equivalent to guessing a random number. The mere statement that a problem is being solved at all implies that useful work is being done, which is not the case and the parent comment is right to point that out.
      - baobabKoodaa 4y ago
        > Oh, get off it. He's not "pretending to disagree", merely providing further context for the anti-utility of the PoW algorithm. The point is that the colloquial understanding of "solving a problem" implies more utility than what is actually happening, which is equivalent to guessing a random number. The mere statement that a problem is being solved at all implies that useful work is being done, which is not the case and the parent comment is right to point that out. You're either trying to confuse others intentionally, or if I'm interpreting charitably, you are merely confused yourself. In neither case is this attitude warranted. You just re-explained that the crux of the issue is useful work vs non-useful work. This is exactly the same point that Josde explained. This point was contested by lottin. I don't understand why they would contest it, as they very clearly agree with that point (based on reading other messages they wrote in this thread). According to you, lottin is not "pretending to disagree", they are "merely providing further context". This is very obviously not true. Either you are lying on purpose or you are confused, maybe you didn't read their message properly. Here it is again for you to read: > It's worse than that, they're aren't solving anything at all. They're taking part in a lottery, in which participants have to guess a number, and the winner gets to update the ledger. Nobody is solving complex mathematical problems. Does that sound to you like "yes, I agree, and here is some further context"? Obviously not. That message is expressing strong disagreement, not further agreement. Please stop spreading misinformation.
        pixelbro 4y ago
        > Obviously not. That message is expressing strong disagreement, not further agreement. Not obvious to me. But sure, I'm confused all right. Confused at how lottin's comment could be interpreted as contesting Josde's, when it reads as a reinforcing restatement to me. Confused at your hostility and accusations of misinformation. Perhaps you're confused about how online conversations work? Sometimes people reply with a restatement when they feel the original doesn't go quite far enough. I mean, lottin's comment was arguably ineloquent, but he wasn't "muddying the waters". Do you perhaps have some expectation that the act of replying implies disagreement? Is it the strongly negative tone that gave you that impression? It certainly isn't the content, since you correctly interpreted my own restatement of lottin's comment as agreement. I'm not trying to confuse others, I'm trying to enlighten you, specifically, about what happened here so that you might reconsider next time before jumping on someone for something they didn't say.
  - wasabi991011 4y ago
    Given y, solve for x in the equation f(x) = y That's a valid use of the word "solve". It is obviously mathematical. It is complex, as we do not have a simple way to solve it. I get it, words can have multiple meanings. It's fine to give a clarification on the specific use here, but then move on.
lottin 4y ago
The fact that there isn't a closed-form solution doesn't make it a complex mathematical problem. Guessing a number isn't a complex mathematical number, it's just guessing a number.
- fzfaa 4y ago
  afaik the solution that has to be "guessed" is not random. We just don't know how to get to it without brute force.
  - WFHRenaissance 4y ago
    Brute-force solutions are still solutions :)

Josde 4y ago

While that is true, I think the point that other users are trying to make is that wording it as "a complex mathematical problem being solved" makes it look like that work is doing something useful when it really is not.

lottin 4y ago
It's worse than that, they're aren't solving anything at all. They're taking part in a lottery, in which participants have to guess a number, and the winner gets to update the ledger. Nobody is solving complex mathematical problems.
- WFHRenaissance 4y ago
  They’re brute-forcing the solution to a mathematical puzzle.
- baobabKoodaa 4y ago
  - pixelbro 4y ago
    Oh, get off it. He's not "pretending to disagree", merely providing further context for the anti-utility of the PoW algorithm. The point is that the colloquial understanding of "solving a problem" implies more utility than what is actually happening, which is equivalent to guessing a random number. The mere statement that a problem is being solved at all implies that useful work is being done, which is not the case and the parent comment is right to point that out.
    - baobabKoodaa 4y ago
      > Oh, get off it. He's not "pretending to disagree", merely providing further context for the anti-utility of the PoW algorithm. The point is that the colloquial understanding of "solving a problem" implies more utility than what is actually happening, which is equivalent to guessing a random number. The mere statement that a problem is being solved at all implies that useful work is being done, which is not the case and the parent comment is right to point that out. You're either trying to confuse others intentionally, or if I'm interpreting charitably, you are merely confused yourself. In neither case is this attitude warranted. You just re-explained that the crux of the issue is useful work vs non-useful work. This is exactly the same point that Josde explained. This point was contested by lottin. I don't understand why they would contest it, as they very clearly agree with that point (based on reading other messages they wrote in this thread). According to you, lottin is not "pretending to disagree", they are "merely providing further context". This is very obviously not true. Either you are lying on purpose or you are confused, maybe you didn't read their message properly. Here it is again for you to read: > It's worse than that, they're aren't solving anything at all. They're taking part in a lottery, in which participants have to guess a number, and the winner gets to update the ledger. Nobody is solving complex mathematical problems. Does that sound to you like "yes, I agree, and here is some further context"? Obviously not. That message is expressing strong disagreement, not further agreement. Please stop spreading misinformation.
      - pixelbro 4y ago
        > Obviously not. That message is expressing strong disagreement, not further agreement. Not obvious to me. But sure, I'm confused all right. Confused at how lottin's comment could be interpreted as contesting Josde's, when it reads as a reinforcing restatement to me. Confused at your hostility and accusations of misinformation. Perhaps you're confused about how online conversations work? Sometimes people reply with a restatement when they feel the original doesn't go quite far enough. I mean, lottin's comment was arguably ineloquent, but he wasn't "muddying the waters". Do you perhaps have some expectation that the act of replying implies disagreement? Is it the strongly negative tone that gave you that impression? It certainly isn't the content, since you correctly interpreted my own restatement of lottin's comment as agreement. I'm not trying to confuse others, I'm trying to enlighten you, specifically, about what happened here so that you might reconsider next time before jumping on someone for something they didn't say.
- wasabi991011 4y ago
  Given y, solve for x in the equation f(x) = y That's a valid use of the word "solve". It is obviously mathematical. It is complex, as we do not have a simple way to solve it. I get it, words can have multiple meanings. It's fine to give a clarification on the specific use here, but then move on.

lottin 4y ago

The fact that there isn't a closed-form solution doesn't make it a complex mathematical problem. Guessing a number isn't a complex mathematical number, it's just guessing a number.

fzfaa 4y ago
afaik the solution that has to be "guessed" is not random. We just don't know how to get to it without brute force.
- WFHRenaissance 4y ago
  Brute-force solutions are still solutions :)