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>The fact that it’s (apparently) only a bunch of crypto fanatics protesting doesn’t really help. This would be like saying that the fact that it's only a bunch

>The fact that it’s (apparently) only a bunch of crypto fanatics protesting doesn’t really help. This would be like saying that the fact that it's only a bunch of hippies protesting useless wars doesn't really help. Arresting someone for writing a program that wasn't illegal or sanctioned when he wrote it and doing it years after is just inexcusable, especially when you realize that no one got arrested when HSBC was found to be laundering cartel money.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
colechristensen 4y ago
Money laundering has been illegal for a long time, you don’t get a pass because you’re doing it dressed up with new technology. Especially when you’re making gobs of money doing it. Especially when the narrative around your new money majorly focuses on how it is secret and evades government control.
- chaosbolt 4y ago
  Oh boy HN sure has changed, every other comment is some conformist cope against privacy giving bogus arguments, and it's weird coming from people whose job is basically logic. >Money laundering has been illegal for a long time Sure if I launder my money to avoid paying taxes I'll be breaking the law. >you don’t get a pass because you’re doing it dressed up with new technology That's like saying that the guy who developed Monero should be in jail because it's used to buy drugs, the guy developed a tool, the people who use the tool to launder their money are the ones breaking the law, if you make cars and some people use them to smuggle drugs you're not breaking the law... >Especially when you’re making gobs of money doing it ...doesn't matter how much money you make selling your cars. >Especially when the narrative around your new money majorly focuses on how it is secret and evades government control. The narrative around anything shouldn't be a factor in you being free or in prison, also tornado wasn't money and it's not even a crypto.
- homeland221 4y ago
  Pretty much anything with money transactions can be classified as laundering. If governments dont like you aby transaction you made can be classified as such. Money laundering is basically like a catch all tools by law enforcers who cant do their job properly and need a cheatcode to do so. Cash is widely use in laundering as well. Guess how government enforce money laundering on that since it is so hard for then to trace, civil forfeiture. We should always boycott and saturate law enforcers and politicians whenever they touch on this area. Their overhand is getting worst everyday.
- mccorrinall 4y ago
  Just because someone uses a mixer/coinjoin/atomic swaps etc it isn’t money laundering. If the US really know that money is being laundered, they can send an email to the developer and tell him to not accept funds from those addresses. I doubt that this happened.
  - superchroma 4y ago
    Only criminals need this technology, and usage from non-criminals helps hide real laundering. I see people are downvoting this post. Name a legitimate usage. I sure as hell can't think of one.
    - colechristensen 4y ago
      The basis for crypto transactions on most blockchains is a public ledger whereby if you don't launder your money, anyone can see every transaction you make, anyone you transact with can see your whole history. "need" is a value judgement, but people in general would certainly dislike the premise of using money where everything you did was public knowledge.
      - salawat 4y ago
        Welcome to why cryptocurrency was a bad idea touted as the biggest thing since sliced bread, and why authorities may actually push things in that direction once they have the tooling right Y'all played yourselves tbqh.
      - superchroma 4y ago
        Ok, so there's no need. There's want, but no need.
  - saalweachter 4y ago
    > Just because someone [does something mechanically identical to money laundering] it isn’t money laundering. I'm not actually sure this is the case under the law. Removing the technology from the mix, one of the better-known AML laws is that you can't structure your transactions for the purpose of avoiding the $10,000 transaction threshold (at which point the banks report the transaction to the feds for them to keep track of it). Note that -- as it is commonly stated, anyway, I haven't read the statute in question -- it doesn't matter why you are structuring your transactions to avoid the threshold, just doing it gets you in trouble.
Waterluvian 4y ago
We’ll have to wait and see. It’s quite possible he is charged for something that was illegal when he allegedly did it.
dukeofdoom 4y ago
Not sure how much longer society will adhere to such values. Seems like liberalism is under attack from politicians adapting postmodern philosophies. Aleksandr Dugin, who's daughter was murdered today, on freedom beyond liberalism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk52o-khc-E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk52o-khc-E
- mullingitover 4y ago
  Seems weird to have Dugin, a notorious fascist, talking about "freedom."
  - dukeofdoom 4y ago
    I'm not export on Dugin, nor a supporter, but that's kind of silly to call him a fascist, since he himself rejects "Fascism" as an antiquated ideology. He's more of a postmodernist thinker, that fully accepted Truth as being relative, and used it to embrace traditional Russian cultural values and interests as being equally True. But I'm probably doing a terrible job on summarizing his views, so here's someone that studied him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFI6fg8NITg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFI6fg8NITg Since he's widely considered as the ideological muse of Putin. What he thinks might actually be more consequential and real to the fate of western liberalism than anything else, should nuclear WWIII happen.
    - mullingitover 4y ago
      > I'm not export[sic] on Dugin, nor a supporter, but that's kind of silly to call him a fascist, since he himself rejects "Fascism" as an antiquated ideology. I've read his work - his complaint about historic fascism wasn't that it was bad, but that it wasn't done properly.
      - dukeofdoom 4y ago
        I doubt a Russian nationalist would be for Fascism, considering how many millions of Russians lost their lives to it. This is one of his quotes, seems like postmodernist to me: “I am for black people. White civilization—its cultural values, the lying, inhuman model of the world built by it—has not justified itself. Everything is heading towards the beginning of white pogroms on a planetary scale. Russia is saved only because we are not pure white. Robber transnational corporations, the oppression and suppression of everyone else, MTV, blue and pink—these are the fruits of a white civilization that must be eliminated. Therefore, I am for red, yellow, green, black—just not for white. I wholeheartedly stand on the side of the people of Zimbabwe. ” —Alexander Dugin
salawat 4y ago
HSBC was likely still in possession of the records created by GAAP, and thus could reveal another set of links in the network of money movement. They had a bargaining chip. Tornado.cash does not. Also, if you haven't noticed, nation states tend to come down like a ton o' bricks on high-tech facilitators of criminal activity, the idea being that by implementing that bit of infrastructure that made all of the criminal activity you have facilitated easier, you have substantively participated in all those crimes. I'm not saying that's okay, or how it should be, but look at Aaron Swartz, Alfred Anaya, McAfee, Assange... It's the same pattern. You will be made an example of as a warning to others.
Aeolun 4y ago
I find it really hard to believe the Dutch authorities would arrest/hold someone unless they had a good reason (more than indicatedin this article). > This would be like saying that the fact that it's only a bunch of hippies protesting useless wars doesn't really help. Indeed. If it’s only the fanatics protesting the general public (and probably the government) must see a good reason to proceed anyway.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

colechristensen 4y ago

Money laundering has been illegal for a long time, you don’t get a pass because you’re doing it dressed up with new technology. Especially when you’re making gobs of money doing it. Especially when the narrative around your new money majorly focuses on how it is secret and evades government control.

chaosbolt 4y ago
Oh boy HN sure has changed, every other comment is some conformist cope against privacy giving bogus arguments, and it's weird coming from people whose job is basically logic. >Money laundering has been illegal for a long time Sure if I launder my money to avoid paying taxes I'll be breaking the law. >you don’t get a pass because you’re doing it dressed up with new technology That's like saying that the guy who developed Monero should be in jail because it's used to buy drugs, the guy developed a tool, the people who use the tool to launder their money are the ones breaking the law, if you make cars and some people use them to smuggle drugs you're not breaking the law... >Especially when you’re making gobs of money doing it ...doesn't matter how much money you make selling your cars. >Especially when the narrative around your new money majorly focuses on how it is secret and evades government control. The narrative around anything shouldn't be a factor in you being free or in prison, also tornado wasn't money and it's not even a crypto.
homeland221 4y ago
Pretty much anything with money transactions can be classified as laundering. If governments dont like you aby transaction you made can be classified as such. Money laundering is basically like a catch all tools by law enforcers who cant do their job properly and need a cheatcode to do so. Cash is widely use in laundering as well. Guess how government enforce money laundering on that since it is so hard for then to trace, civil forfeiture. We should always boycott and saturate law enforcers and politicians whenever they touch on this area. Their overhand is getting worst everyday.
mccorrinall 4y ago
Just because someone uses a mixer/coinjoin/atomic swaps etc it isn’t money laundering. If the US really know that money is being laundered, they can send an email to the developer and tell him to not accept funds from those addresses. I doubt that this happened.
- superchroma 4y ago
  Only criminals need this technology, and usage from non-criminals helps hide real laundering. I see people are downvoting this post. Name a legitimate usage. I sure as hell can't think of one.
  - colechristensen 4y ago
    The basis for crypto transactions on most blockchains is a public ledger whereby if you don't launder your money, anyone can see every transaction you make, anyone you transact with can see your whole history. "need" is a value judgement, but people in general would certainly dislike the premise of using money where everything you did was public knowledge.
    - salawat 4y ago
      Welcome to why cryptocurrency was a bad idea touted as the biggest thing since sliced bread, and why authorities may actually push things in that direction once they have the tooling right Y'all played yourselves tbqh.
    - superchroma 4y ago
      Ok, so there's no need. There's want, but no need.
- saalweachter 4y ago
  > Just because someone [does something mechanically identical to money laundering] it isn’t money laundering. I'm not actually sure this is the case under the law. Removing the technology from the mix, one of the better-known AML laws is that you can't structure your transactions for the purpose of avoiding the $10,000 transaction threshold (at which point the banks report the transaction to the feds for them to keep track of it). Note that -- as it is commonly stated, anyway, I haven't read the statute in question -- it doesn't matter why you are structuring your transactions to avoid the threshold, just doing it gets you in trouble.

Waterluvian 4y ago

We’ll have to wait and see. It’s quite possible he is charged for something that was illegal when he allegedly did it.

dukeofdoom 4y ago

Not sure how much longer society will adhere to such values. Seems like liberalism is under attack from politicians adapting postmodern philosophies. Aleksandr Dugin, who's daughter was murdered today, on freedom beyond liberalism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk52o-khc-E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk52o-khc-E

mullingitover 4y ago
Seems weird to have Dugin, a notorious fascist, talking about "freedom."
- dukeofdoom 4y ago
  I'm not export on Dugin, nor a supporter, but that's kind of silly to call him a fascist, since he himself rejects "Fascism" as an antiquated ideology. He's more of a postmodernist thinker, that fully accepted Truth as being relative, and used it to embrace traditional Russian cultural values and interests as being equally True. But I'm probably doing a terrible job on summarizing his views, so here's someone that studied him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFI6fg8NITg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFI6fg8NITg Since he's widely considered as the ideological muse of Putin. What he thinks might actually be more consequential and real to the fate of western liberalism than anything else, should nuclear WWIII happen.
  - mullingitover 4y ago
    > I'm not export[sic] on Dugin, nor a supporter, but that's kind of silly to call him a fascist, since he himself rejects "Fascism" as an antiquated ideology. I've read his work - his complaint about historic fascism wasn't that it was bad, but that it wasn't done properly.
    - dukeofdoom 4y ago
      I doubt a Russian nationalist would be for Fascism, considering how many millions of Russians lost their lives to it. This is one of his quotes, seems like postmodernist to me: “I am for black people. White civilization—its cultural values, the lying, inhuman model of the world built by it—has not justified itself. Everything is heading towards the beginning of white pogroms on a planetary scale. Russia is saved only because we are not pure white. Robber transnational corporations, the oppression and suppression of everyone else, MTV, blue and pink—these are the fruits of a white civilization that must be eliminated. Therefore, I am for red, yellow, green, black—just not for white. I wholeheartedly stand on the side of the people of Zimbabwe. ” —Alexander Dugin

salawat 4y ago

HSBC was likely still in possession of the records created by GAAP, and thus could reveal another set of links in the network of money movement. They had a bargaining chip. Tornado.cash does not. Also, if you haven't noticed, nation states tend to come down like a ton o' bricks on high-tech facilitators of criminal activity, the idea being that by implementing that bit of infrastructure that made all of the criminal activity you have facilitated easier, you have substantively participated in all those crimes. I'm not saying that's okay, or how it should be, but look at Aaron Swartz, Alfred Anaya, McAfee, Assange... It's the same pattern. You will be made an example of as a warning to others.

Aeolun 4y ago

I find it really hard to believe the Dutch authorities would arrest/hold someone unless they had a good reason (more than indicatedin this article). > This would be like saying that the fact that it's only a bunch of hippies protesting useless wars doesn't really help. Indeed. If it’s only the fanatics protesting the general public (and probably the government) must see a good reason to proceed anyway.