8 ms·

I'm agog, who even thinks up this kind of plan? It's quite obviously not beneficial to the homeless people to segregate them. And then, the thing that killed/

I'm agog, who even thinks up this kind of plan? It's quite obviously not beneficial to the homeless people to segregate them. And then, the thing that killed/delayed the proposal seems to be a NIMBY protest at 'having a bunch of homeless people on our leisure beach'. What kind of society is this?

jesuscript 4y ago
It’s an off shoot of police containment tactics. Generally, when homeless and vagrants congregate in specific neighborhoods, the cops round them up and move them to another neighborhood or part of town where they are essentially out of sight. This is urban studies 101, and The Wire’s ‘Hamsterdam’ is depiction of the tactic. That’s roughly the plan here. Move them out of sight (site? No pun intended). As for actually how to solve the mess? Eh, just tuck the dirty laundry under the bed. Clean room in seconds. The society needs a refactor in certain parts of the codebase, but few have the courage to take on a legacy codebase.
- z3c0 4y ago
  If anyone is interested in a historical example: https://web.archive.org/web/20220121014127/https://www.nytimes.com/1996/07/01/us/as-olympics-approach-homeless-are-not-feeling-at-home-in-atlanta.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220121014127/https://www.nytim...
- e_i_pi_2 4y ago
  I heard a podcast recently talking how the police do the same thing to the homeless population in LA, and they described it as "trying to clean your floor by sweeping the dust in a circle"
lettergram 4y ago
> It's quite obviously not beneficial to the homeless people to segregate them. Lol what? There’s a lot of different world views out there. The prominent world view throughout the world is that society forms to protect itself. Pretty basic reasoning: we band together to protect other people stealing our stuff. Homeless are in effect stealing. They are living beneath the society often selling drugs, on drugs, committing crimes, leaving excrement on the street, screaming wildly, etc. The homeless are not part of society and are not contributing members. They are living off the society and causing a net negative effect. You could potentially reverse that by getting people into shelters, etc. - how’s that working SF, LA, etc? The common world view (in Asia, parts of Africa, parts of Europe, etc and historically everywhere) is to push the homesless out of the cities. It’s safer for the society and allows the society to be more prosperous. Society can care about the homeless, empathy is good. But it’s empathetic to everyone to separate them from the society. People that can conduct themselves can join the society, otherwise your hurting everyone. That said, the island: > The program calls for the construction of 50 to 100 “tiny homes” on Virginia Key, an 863-acre barrier island. Seems like a decent option. They get a home and have the option to rejoin society after they pull themselves together. Although, it’s a barrier island… and I can’t imagine that’ll end well.
- wwright 4y ago
  the entirety of your post assumes that homelessness is a moral failing of individuals when the entirety of what we know about community development and psychology shows that that is not the case; you can believe in this plan, but you are supported by money and ego, not by actual fact friend
- woodruffw 4y ago
  This is a miserable and venal way of looking at society's most needy. The fact that their needs are visible to you does not eliminate their humanity or their presence in society; it makes it all the more pressing that we integrate them and address their needs rather than burying them.
- closewith 4y ago
  > Homeless are in effect stealing. They are living beneath the society often selling drugs, on drugs, committing crimes, leaving excrement on the street, screaming wildly, etc. This has to be satire, right? Poe’s law. I can’t believe anyone would honestly hold this opinion, let alone be willing to voice it publicly.
  - Intermernet 4y ago
    Unfortunately, satire often pales in comparison to reality. People do hold these opinions. It's largely why progress in society is as slow as it is.
    - choko 4y ago
      Please define progress. To what end are more "social" policies progressing?
      - Intermernet 4y ago
        By progress, I mean a higher percentage of the population having a higher quality of life.
  - 4y ago
wwright 4y ago
Fascists think up this kind of plan; this kind of society is a fascist society
- wellthatsawrap1 4y ago
  No people that done want shit all over their streets, constant breakins, assaults, junkies shooting up in their back yard think this up. You should Google San Fran homeless or Philadelphia Kensington Ave.
  - Intermernet 4y ago
    This is like putting a bandaid on skin cancer. What you're describing is a symptom of social inequality and a terrible attitude to public health, both physically and mentally. Hiding the symptoms doesn't solve the problem.
    - xienze 4y ago
      Then by all means, tell us the solution. Because progressive meccas like San Francisco and Seattle, despite spending more and more money on the homeless every single year, can’t seem to figure out what to do either.
      - fzeroracer 4y ago
        So let me flip the script on you: What conservative states and cities have solved the problem then?
        tstrimple 4y ago
        Florida. By shipping the homeless off to where they can’t escape and folks can’t see them.
        dmix 4y ago
        The City of Miami and the area around it is a sea of blue in a swing state.
logicalmonster 4y ago
> What kind of society is this? In a society with some measure of respect for individual choices (freedom) we have apparently decided that we cannot physically force homeless people (a very large portion are heavily addicted to drugs and/or have massive mental health issues) to seek help. As things stand, either we have to violate the homeless peoples' rights to free choices, or cities must accept having a plethora of mentally ill people around their families. This creates a situation where neither outcome is socially acceptable and is what inspires attempted solutions like building voluntary housing for the homeless on an island. I actually have to admire the ingenuity of the proposed solution, allowing homeless people to VOLUNTARILY (that's key) go on an island with no assistance is obviously a recipe for disaster for them, but in and of itself is a solution that actually cuts through this particular impossible conundrum. PS: I'm not necessarily advocating for one kind of society or another in this post, merely giving my attempt at explaining what inspires these kinds of solutions.
- NohatCoder 4y ago
  You (Americans) have decided that you don't want to give homeless people help. If the availability of actual no-strings-attached help in the US was more than a footnote, homeless people would come flocking to get it. While there certainly are individuals whom it is very hard to help, that is the minority.
  - logicalmonster 4y ago
    I'd like to understand your perspective better. Can you give some examples of the strings attached to the help that are a problem? For instance, homeless shelters might have rules like "don't get drunk or high in the shelter". Is that what you're referring to?
    - jasonpeacock 4y ago
      Houston, TX is a great example of this. First, they give shelter without condition, then they have counselors to help. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/14/headway/houston-homeless-people.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/14/headway/houston-homeless-... So yes - literally "no strings attached". They go around to homeless people and say "would you like a place to live?" and provide it. There's no requirements for sobriety, faith, counseling, etc.
RestlessMind 4y ago
A society where politicians tout "empathy" and "kindness" only to score political points, but have no appetite to do the hard work of identifying how to pay for all the consequences of being "empathetic"? In another news today from NYT: New York City is now straining under the load of illegal immigrants after the Texas governor simply took all the sanctuary cities by their word: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/20/nyregion/nyc-migrants-texas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/20/nyregion/nyc-migrants-tex... jacknews - I have no idea where you live but one day, busloads of migrants may end up in your city. Would love to see what you actually do at that time. Words of "kindness" are cheap.
jelliclesfarm 4y ago
Would you ask this if sick people are moved to a hospital where they can get care? Homeless are moved to a place they can find shelter. It is the compassionate thing to do. I don’t understand societies that support the rights of the homeless to live outdoors and take over the commons rendering it useless for its intended purpose.

jesuscript 4y ago

It’s an off shoot of police containment tactics. Generally, when homeless and vagrants congregate in specific neighborhoods, the cops round them up and move them to another neighborhood or part of town where they are essentially out of sight. This is urban studies 101, and The Wire’s ‘Hamsterdam’ is depiction of the tactic. That’s roughly the plan here. Move them out of sight (site? No pun intended). As for actually how to solve the mess? Eh, just tuck the dirty laundry under the bed. Clean room in seconds. The society needs a refactor in certain parts of the codebase, but few have the courage to take on a legacy codebase.

z3c0 4y ago
If anyone is interested in a historical example: https://web.archive.org/web/20220121014127/https://www.nytimes.com/1996/07/01/us/as-olympics-approach-homeless-are-not-feeling-at-home-in-atlanta.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220121014127/https://www.nytim...
e_i_pi_2 4y ago
I heard a podcast recently talking how the police do the same thing to the homeless population in LA, and they described it as "trying to clean your floor by sweeping the dust in a circle"

lettergram 4y ago

> It's quite obviously not beneficial to the homeless people to segregate them. Lol what? There’s a lot of different world views out there. The prominent world view throughout the world is that society forms to protect itself. Pretty basic reasoning: we band together to protect other people stealing our stuff. Homeless are in effect stealing. They are living beneath the society often selling drugs, on drugs, committing crimes, leaving excrement on the street, screaming wildly, etc. The homeless are not part of society and are not contributing members. They are living off the society and causing a net negative effect. You could potentially reverse that by getting people into shelters, etc. - how’s that working SF, LA, etc? The common world view (in Asia, parts of Africa, parts of Europe, etc and historically everywhere) is to push the homesless out of the cities. It’s safer for the society and allows the society to be more prosperous. Society can care about the homeless, empathy is good. But it’s empathetic to everyone to separate them from the society. People that can conduct themselves can join the society, otherwise your hurting everyone. That said, the island: > The program calls for the construction of 50 to 100 “tiny homes” on Virginia Key, an 863-acre barrier island. Seems like a decent option. They get a home and have the option to rejoin society after they pull themselves together. Although, it’s a barrier island… and I can’t imagine that’ll end well.

wwright 4y ago
the entirety of your post assumes that homelessness is a moral failing of individuals when the entirety of what we know about community development and psychology shows that that is not the case; you can believe in this plan, but you are supported by money and ego, not by actual fact friend
woodruffw 4y ago
This is a miserable and venal way of looking at society's most needy. The fact that their needs are visible to you does not eliminate their humanity or their presence in society; it makes it all the more pressing that we integrate them and address their needs rather than burying them.
closewith 4y ago
> Homeless are in effect stealing. They are living beneath the society often selling drugs, on drugs, committing crimes, leaving excrement on the street, screaming wildly, etc. This has to be satire, right? Poe’s law. I can’t believe anyone would honestly hold this opinion, let alone be willing to voice it publicly.
- Intermernet 4y ago
  Unfortunately, satire often pales in comparison to reality. People do hold these opinions. It's largely why progress in society is as slow as it is.
  - choko 4y ago
    Please define progress. To what end are more "social" policies progressing?
    - Intermernet 4y ago
      By progress, I mean a higher percentage of the population having a higher quality of life.
- 4y ago

wwright 4y ago

Fascists think up this kind of plan; this kind of society is a fascist society

wellthatsawrap1 4y ago
No people that done want shit all over their streets, constant breakins, assaults, junkies shooting up in their back yard think this up. You should Google San Fran homeless or Philadelphia Kensington Ave.
- Intermernet 4y ago
  This is like putting a bandaid on skin cancer. What you're describing is a symptom of social inequality and a terrible attitude to public health, both physically and mentally. Hiding the symptoms doesn't solve the problem.
  - xienze 4y ago
    Then by all means, tell us the solution. Because progressive meccas like San Francisco and Seattle, despite spending more and more money on the homeless every single year, can’t seem to figure out what to do either.
    - fzeroracer 4y ago
      So let me flip the script on you: What conservative states and cities have solved the problem then?
      - tstrimple 4y ago
        Florida. By shipping the homeless off to where they can’t escape and folks can’t see them.
        dmix 4y ago
        The City of Miami and the area around it is a sea of blue in a swing state.

logicalmonster 4y ago

> What kind of society is this? In a society with some measure of respect for individual choices (freedom) we have apparently decided that we cannot physically force homeless people (a very large portion are heavily addicted to drugs and/or have massive mental health issues) to seek help. As things stand, either we have to violate the homeless peoples' rights to free choices, or cities must accept having a plethora of mentally ill people around their families. This creates a situation where neither outcome is socially acceptable and is what inspires attempted solutions like building voluntary housing for the homeless on an island. I actually have to admire the ingenuity of the proposed solution, allowing homeless people to VOLUNTARILY (that's key) go on an island with no assistance is obviously a recipe for disaster for them, but in and of itself is a solution that actually cuts through this particular impossible conundrum. PS: I'm not necessarily advocating for one kind of society or another in this post, merely giving my attempt at explaining what inspires these kinds of solutions.

NohatCoder 4y ago
You (Americans) have decided that you don't want to give homeless people help. If the availability of actual no-strings-attached help in the US was more than a footnote, homeless people would come flocking to get it. While there certainly are individuals whom it is very hard to help, that is the minority.
- logicalmonster 4y ago
  I'd like to understand your perspective better. Can you give some examples of the strings attached to the help that are a problem? For instance, homeless shelters might have rules like "don't get drunk or high in the shelter". Is that what you're referring to?
  - jasonpeacock 4y ago
    Houston, TX is a great example of this. First, they give shelter without condition, then they have counselors to help. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/14/headway/houston-homeless-people.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/14/headway/houston-homeless-... So yes - literally "no strings attached". They go around to homeless people and say "would you like a place to live?" and provide it. There's no requirements for sobriety, faith, counseling, etc.

RestlessMind 4y ago

A society where politicians tout "empathy" and "kindness" only to score political points, but have no appetite to do the hard work of identifying how to pay for all the consequences of being "empathetic"? In another news today from NYT: New York City is now straining under the load of illegal immigrants after the Texas governor simply took all the sanctuary cities by their word: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/20/nyregion/nyc-migrants-texas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/20/nyregion/nyc-migrants-tex... jacknews - I have no idea where you live but one day, busloads of migrants may end up in your city. Would love to see what you actually do at that time. Words of "kindness" are cheap.

jelliclesfarm 4y ago

Would you ask this if sick people are moved to a hospital where they can get care? Homeless are moved to a place they can find shelter. It is the compassionate thing to do. I don’t understand societies that support the rights of the homeless to live outdoors and take over the commons rendering it useless for its intended purpose.